Reversing T2

[Guzzler]

This discussion is fascinating to me right now. My signature shows that I have come part way on a journey over the past 2.5 years via lowering carbs. (My average is 40 gms per day but I still feel guilty this is too high.)
I am none too sure that i feel comfortable with high fat but meals/days with around 70% of a 1900 cal diet seems to at least put my BG levels in a place that makes me feel less uncomfortable. I still obsess about never going above 6.5 after meals or having a fasting level over 5.5 - I do wonder at what stage, if ever, i will feel at ease about all this.
Two other points intrigue me. Guzzler makes an excellent point about weight around the waist so why have I never had a waist to hip ratio taken by my doctor or diabetic nurse?. My BMI now ranges from 23 to 23.3 but I am not too pleased with that - however an early piece I read on reversing diabetes suggested not going too low. Those who seem to me from their track record to have the best success in this mission appear to have quite low BMI. So my second query is do people feel there is a natural weight for humans? I have never been able to get below BMI 22 (11 st 7 Lbs) even after a really bad case of Chicken Pox. Training for marathons, playing good level rugby and cricket my best weight was 12 St 7 Lbs 23.7.
Long rambling post so feel free to ignore but the issues being raised above resonate with me atm.

There is a theory that I have heard spoken of called the Personal Fat Threshhold. It is just a theory but what it posits is that we all have a different fat threshold just as we have different eye colour or shoe size etc and sometimes our body' just settle on the best weight for us as individuals. Interesting idea?

 

[woodywhippet61]

@woodywhippet61 DMI is now considered to be of little use in deciding what the best weight is for a person. Waist measurement is a lot more useful. Your nurse is being very wise. (A good test is if your weight is stopping you fealinng like being active, then it is an issue.)

Yep I was replying to the person I quoted. I agree with you about my dn she is. I was a bit surprised as the type 2 books seem to all say that a BMI should be less than 29 or even 24. I might make it down to 29 but I would look very odd if I tried to get down to 24.

I have inherited a large stomach body shape. If I lose to much weight I shall look like humpty dumpty, I am already going in that direction. So waist measurement I just don't want to think about it. I'd have to be bone thin to even get a vague impression of having a waist.

 

[ianpspurs]

There is a theory that I have heard spoken of called the Personal Fat Threshhold. It is just a theory but what it posits is that we all have a different fat threshold just as we have different eye colour or shoe size etc and sometimes our body' just settle on the best weight for us as individuals. Interesting idea?

Guzzler, I like what you post generally and I too vaguely seem to recall such a theory. I guess I am the type of person who always feels they could do better and seeing other people with lower A1C levels makes me over competitive. Getting to around 30/31 is a goal and it is taking too long for my liking.

 

[Guzzler]

Guzzler, I like what you post generally and I too vaguely seem to recall such a theory. I guess I am the type of person who always feels they could do better and seeing other people with lower A1C levels makes me over competitive. Getting to around 30/31 is a goal and it is taking too long for my liking.

I must admit to being a little competitive myself at times, especially in regards to A1c.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Guzzler, I like what you post generally and I too vaguely seem to recall such a theory. I guess I am the type of person who always feels they could do better and seeing other people with lower A1C levels makes me over competitive. Getting to around 30/31 is a goal and it is taking too long for my liking.

Competition with oneself is good. Competition with others (in relation to glucose issues) is counter productive. Length of time diabetic, state of the pancreas, age, condition of red blood cells, lifestyle issues, and many other factors are all in play.

 

[ianpspurs]

Competition with oneself is good. Competition with others (in relation to glucose issues) is counter productive. Length of time diabetic, state of the pancreas, age, condition of red blood cells, lifestyle issues, and many other factors are all in play.

Bluetit1802, you are another poster who I find very helpful. I know in the logical part of my mind that all those factors are very true and important. I also know that we are all individuals and our responses to diet etc are different. The rational side of me also knows that it is counter productive to induce stress into the equation (over competition can be stressful).
Having said all that, the sportsman side then says only winners count. I really still crave PBs!

 

[Bluetit1802]

Bluetit1802, you are another poster who I find very helpful. I know in the logical part of my mind that all those factors are very true and important. I also know that we are all individuals and our responses to diet etc. The rational side of me also knows that it is probably counter productive to induce stress into the equation (over competition can be stressful).
Having said all that, the sportsman side then says only winners count.

I am and always have been super competitive, but as far as diabetes is concerned I turn this on myself. I try to beat myself, no-one else. If I manage this, I am a winner. Aiming for something that may be impossible is counterproductive. You can never win.

 

[ianpspurs]

I am and always have been super competitive, but as far as diabetes is concerned I turn this on myself. I try to beat myself, no-one else. If I manage this, I am a winner. Aiming for something that may be impossible is counterproductive. You can never win.

Thanks for the insight - very helpful. I probably need to be more Bjorn Borg - ice cool and less Mike Tyson - everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

 

[Resurgam]

I've lost a foot off my waist measurement - it was more an equator, but I always had a slender waist - I have skirts I used to wear, really good suede mini skirts which would make good handbags.
I used to weigh 150lb and had a waist of 24 inches - though that was some time ago. I was told that I was over weight, but I was very fit and muscular - I used to go sailing, walking, cycling and was roadie for a duo - I could move all the equipment in three loads, and carry the one who used to get very drunk over my shoulders in a fireman's lift if someone could get him up off the floor for me.
I am sure that my large middle was due to a fatty liver, as I could not bend over easily, now I am far more supple and it is a lot easier to get down onto the floor, and more importantly, up again.

 

[Guzzler]

Competition with oneself is good. Competition with others (in relation to glucose issues) is counter productive. Length of time diabetic, state of the pancreas, age, condition of red blood cells, lifestyle issues, and many other factors are all in play.

As you know, I cannot compete with others re A1c due to my circumstances. I compete in the challenge to improve my health and prospects for a furure that I hope does not mean starting on a sliding scale of drugs/insulin. The thought of failing in my attempts to gain better control of my daily bg is enough to keep me from becoming complacent.

 

[ianpspurs]

As you know, I cannot compete with others re A1c due to my circumstances. I compete in the challenge to improve my health and prospects for a furure that I hope does not mean starting on a sliding scale of drugs/insulin. The thought of failing in my attempts to gain better control of my daily bg is enough to keep me from becoming complacent.

This has been very useful for me to reflect on a few home truths that should have been very clear to me.
Firstly, to paraphrase "type 2 diabetes is for life, not just for a few results."
Secondly, even reading the wisdom of many contributors on here should have made me acutely aware that I am more a 3rd or 2:2 in understanding this process than some who are definitely 1sts,
Guzzler, your comment reminds me to reread/reflect again on Bill Walsh The score will take care of itself - the only caveat seems to be that this condition can be seemingly capricious at times.

 

[ianpspurs]

I've lost a foot off my waist measurement - it was more an equator, but I always had a slender waist - I have skirts I used to wear, really good suede mini skirts which would make good handbags.
I used to weigh 150lb and had a waist of 24 inches - though that was some time ago. I was told that I was over weight, but I was very fit and muscular - I used to go sailing, walking, cycling and was roadie for a duo - I could move all the equipment in three loads, and carry the one who used to get very drunk over my shoulders in a fireman's lift if someone could get him up off the floor for me.
I am sure that my large middle was due to a fatty liver, as I could not bend over easily, now I am far more supple and it is a lot easier to get down onto the floor, and more importantly, up again.

I am so pleased for you and hope you continue to enjoy the fruits of your changes. I too have had to either have major alterations to clothes or just throw away many - worse case was buying a suit for my sons wedding. Within 2 months it needed it altering as I dropped 3 sizes within 3 months.

 

[Brunneria]

There is a theory that I have heard spoken of called the Personal Fat Threshhold. It is just a theory but what it posits is that we all have a different fat threshold just as we have different eye colour or shoe size etc and sometimes our body' just settle on the best weight for us as individuals. Interesting idea?

Hi @Guzzler,

My understanding of the Personal Fat Threshold (PFT) is how PRofessor Taylor of the Newcastle Diet uses the term - basically that it is the PFT of the liver. If fat levels in the liver are above the PFT, then the person shows signs of T2, if the level of fat in the liver is below the PFT, then the person does not show signs of T2.

It is very likely that other people have used the same phrase with a different meaning, but I can't recall seeing it.
Do you have any links to where it was used in the sense you have for it?

 

[Guzzler]

Hi @Guzzler,

My understanding of the Personal Fat Threshold (PFT) is how PRofessor Taylor of the Newcastle Diet uses the term - basically that it is the PFT of the liver. If fat levels in the liver are above the PFT, then the person shows signs of T2, if the level of fat in the liver is below the PFT, then the person does not show signs of T2.

It is very likely that other people have used the same phrase with a different meaning, but I can't recall seeing it.
Do you have any links to where it was used in the sense you have for it?

Sorry, I don't remember where I read/heard the phrase so can't provide links but I do distinctly remember that it was a theory rather than evidence based. It seems logical, also, that it would apply to the liver.

BTW I have read of Dr. Taylor's work only in passing, here on DCUK so I doubt that it was from his research that I remember the phrase.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Sorry, I don't remember where I read/heard the phrase so can't provide links but I do distinctly remember that it was a theory rather than evidence based. It seems logical, also, that it would apply to the liver.

BTW I have read of Dr. Taylor's work only in passing, here on DCUK so I doubt that it was from his research that I remember the phrase.

You probably read it on the forum. It is an oft used phrase on here.

 

[ianpspurs]

Just read the PFT thread started by Guzzler on October 1 2017. The theory put forward by Prof Taylor seems about right for me - Tanith put a value of about 15% body weight loss @ diagnosis. I initially lost over 20%+ in under 6 months.
In that thread there were mentions of TOFI and a link to a scientific definition around ones AAT/ASAT ratio. Is this metric something people can easily obtain in the uk?
I am still left wondering if T2 control aside there is a natural weight for people. Guzzler raised the concern in the thread I read that he would need to drop to a medically concerning low weight in order to go into reversal. I am happy with good control but would like to get a handle on a personal optimal weight, calorie, carb environment.
As I type this I can already anticipate the replies = wouldn't we all! just have to read, experiment and test!
Thanks to Guzzler and Bluetit1802 who have helped me to think through some issues. As the song says, in a very short time "we've come a long long way together"

 

[Bluetit1802]

Thanks to Guzzler and Bluetit1802 who have helped me to think through some issues. As the song says, in a very short time "we've come a long long way together"

Thanks for the thanks!

My personal view is that body weight is of little relevance to BG control. It is the internal fat, which we can't see, that is relevant. Get rid of the fatty liver and fatty pancreas and we are on our way to reversal.

 

[Guzzler]

Just read the PFT thread started by Guzzler on October 1 2017. The theory put forward by Prof Taylor seems about right for me - Tanith put a value of about 15% body weight loss @ diagnosis. I initially lost over 20%+ in under 6 months.
In that thread there were mentions of TOFI and a link to a scientific definition around ones AAT/ASAT ratio. Is this metric something people can easily obtain in the uk?
I am still left wondering if T2 control aside there is a natural weight for people. Guzzler raised the concern in the thread I read that he would need to drop to a medically concerning low weight in order to go into reversal. I am happy with good control but would like to get a handle on a personal optimal weight, calorie, carb environment.
As I type this I can already anticipate the replies = wouldn't we all! just have to read, experiment and test!
Thanks to Guzzler and Bluetit1802 who have helped me to think through some issues. As the song says, in a very short time "we've come a long long way together"

You are most welcome. The song I would propose is the fabulous Gloria Gaynor's 'I will survive'

 

[ianpspurs]

Thanks for the thanks!

My personal view is that body weight is of little relevance to BG control. It is the internal fat, which we can't see, that is relevant. Get rid of the fatty liver and fatty pancreas and we are on our way to reversal.

I think we both agree on this. I just feel uncertain about how to tell when one has reached peak fat loss in these areas, how I can find out current levels and optimum conditions to get to this promised land. I don't see much mileage in looking for unicorn eggs!
Still, joining in these discussions is an excellent learning journey.

 

[ianpspurs]

I guess I am just miffed by the last set of tests and the fact that this journey does not appear to be linear. Perhaps I am also not grateful enough about what I have achieved so far. Again, massive thanks for replies and tolerating what could appear to be a virtual whinge! It wasn't and I genuinely wonder where do I go from here - not down to the lake I fear!