Taking advantage of wine's shut down of liver glucose?

[Neohdiver]

I learned something new yesterday - and I'm curious to see what others think.

Since diagnosis in October I've had 4 glasses of wine, three of them fairly sweet. I had one yesterday that is one of the sweetest varieties (Moscato) and, from the taste, probably on the high end of residual sugar content even for the variety. A 5 oz glass can have up to 34 carbs, apparently.*** (Corrected in a later post - the conversion chart I was using was apparently wildly inaccurate - the correct cap is around 15 grams for a sweet wine)*** I couldn't find any information on the brand I was drinking. My glass was 6 oz.

BG before the first sip: 5.7
BG at 1 hour: 5.2
BG at 2 hours: 5.3

(This reaction is similar to the three previous times I've had a glass of wine, since diagnosis.)

20 carbs in a 3 hour period is about all I can tolerate, normally. On the 3 previous glasses, I figured they must just have been on the low end of the sweeter scale and probably fewer than 10 grams per glass - which would have been fine with what I was eating. I'm pretty sure from the taste that this one was above 20 grams all by itself - and still no elevated BG.

So I started researching. What seems to be happening is that the liver diverts its normal process of creating glucose from non-carbs (and dumping the resulting glucose into bloodstream) into processing the alcohol, instead. And absent the extra glucose the liver is putting out I seem to be able to handle more consumed carbs. (Please feel free to correct this understanding - I'm still trying to sort out what seemed to both me and my doctor to be an odd response to sweeter wines.)

But - assuming I'm correct - it occurred to me that this might mean that I might occasionally even be able to have a real piece of bread in a meal when I have wine.

As background, I don't consider grains (or any other specific form of carb) inherently evil. My body just doesn't tolerate them in large enough quantities to make it practical to include in my diet. I also don't drink much (the 4 glasses of wine in 4 months is fairly typical, not something new since diagnosis/starting to eat low carb). And I'm not likely to start making drinking an every day thing, just to increase my carb cap.

So - with that background:

Am I understanding what is going on correctly? (The liver temporarily stops adding a background level of glucose, effectively raising my carb tolerance cap by the amount the liver is temporarily not putting out)

Am I crazy to think that, on the rare occasion when I go out for a meal that includes wine, I might also be able to enjoy a whole grain roll with an otherwise low-carb meal?

 

[Jaylee]

Could be something in it..?
I've noticed similar with vodka...

Fair play, I can bolus for what I eat. But certain foods like chips or pizza come back to bite me in the **** much later.. Keeping it simple & for that reason, I don't do em.. (Twice a year is excessive for me.) on the whole I LC.

But on a night out or a band tour with no other option with a few scoops of voddy? I wake up a healthy 4.8 with no dawn phenomenon.. Not even a nocturnal hypo..

I'm no expert. Just noticed @Neohdiver your on metformin? I believe this drug also helps to stop liver dump.. Might be worth factoring in..? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[AloeSvea]

You're not crazy @Neohdiver in realising alcohol has this liver glucose-diversiary effect. I would add too, that the relaxation and often the socialising can and does have a really positive effect on blood glucose regulation. (It sure does with me.) Medical professionals and the conventional diabetes literature would be loathe to talk about this positive effect on BG with diabetics because, as we all know, alcohol can be addictive! Especially as it is socially acceptable to drink alcohol. And too much alcohol can and does actually harm the liver. And that soooo isn't good for diabetes! But, and so, the trick is in the level. Hence the profs keep away from mentioning it. But we talk about it in this forum! Yay!

The thing about carbs is that any not used by your body for immediate use is stored. Stored carbs contributes/aids/abets your body making its own glucose - and insulin resistance - which many Type 2s have in truckloads (I know I do) - means your liver is not getting the signal (from insulin) to not produce its own glucose - it falsely reads the low insulin level caused by your body not producing enough insulin/glucose not getting into your cells as low glucose in your blood. And makes and releases more glucose. If you suffer from high fasting blood glucose (like I do, which is why I know so much about it) then that is what is happening. The bread roll, alas, will contribute then to your body making that glucose.

But, eat that roll, and meter - and find out! Insulin sensitivity also improves over time, with a low-carb diet, is my understanding. You may have such good glucose control your body can take the roll and make enough and receive enough insulin to cover it no problems. If that is the case - report it in here so I can read it and be hugely pleasantly envious! . And live/eat vicariously through you. (Bread rolls - yum.)

 

[Neohdiver]

The thing about carbs is that any not used by your body for immediate use is stored. Stored carbs contributes/aids/abets your body making its own glucose - and insulin resistance - which many Type 2s have in truckloads (I know I do) - means your liver is not getting the signal (from insulin) to not produce its own glucose - it falsely reads the low insulin level caused by your body not producing enough insulin/glucose not getting into your cells as low glucose in your blood. And makes and releases more glucose. If you suffer from high fasting blood glucose (like I do, which is why I know so much about it) then that is what is happening. The bread roll, alas, will contribute then to your body making that glucose.

Thanks! And hmm . . .

The alcohol turns off the conversion from glycogen to glucose, right?

Does it impact the conversion of carb to glucose for immediate use [and any excess to glycogen - the storage mechanism] process as well?

I'm eating a calorie deficit at the moment, so there should be minimal conversion of the very few carbs I am eating to glycogen. If they are being converted to glucose at the normal rate, it seems to me the consequences of consuming more (while the alcohol has the liver fooled) shouldn't be any different than eating more without the alcohol - except the difference in the total blood glucose will be lower without the liver-supplied excess. In other words, eating carbs while consuming alcohol shouldn't result in any greater glycogen stores than eating carbs without alcohol, right?

I do have dawn phenomenon, although more later-morning phenomenon (which is going to kill my next fasting blood glucose test since I don't wake up in the doctor's office). Most morning readings are below 5.6. But until I eat something like nuts or cheese, it climbs (to as high as 7.8) . I wouldn't want to make that worse by adding to the supply of glycogen the liver has to come back and bite me with. But if all it is doing while I'm eating at a calorie deficit is spiking (or not) my immediate blood glucose level, using it to permit a slightly higher carb meal has interesting possibilities.

But, eat that roll, and meter - and find out! Insulin sensitivity also improves over time, with a low-carb diet, is my understanding. You may have such good glucose control your body can take the roll and make enough and receive enough insulin to cover it no problems. If that is the case - report it in here so I can read it and be hugely pleasantly envious! . And live/eat vicariously through you. (Bread rolls - yum.)

When I decide to try it, I'll dig this thread back up again and tag you. It will likely be after I reach my weight goal ~June.

In the mean time, I have found that I can almost imagine that a savory almond flour roll toasted with melted cheese on top is a real roll. (I add Italian seasonings to the roll mix when I make them. I split a roll, top it with shredded cheese and throw it in the broiler until the cheese is toasted and bubbly)

 

[AloeSvea]

About alcohol switching off immediate glucose use - that I do not know! I only know (or think I know! ) about its switching off effect on gluconeogenesis, ie through the liver as part of the storage pathway.

My understanding is the body uses glucose immediately it enters into the bloodstream for energy (ie getting the glucose into the cells with insulin) and the excess, ie what the body does not immediately use, goes through the liver and is then stored in fat cells in the liver and elsewhere in the body (and why having too many carbs for our metabolism screws up we T2 diabetics in the first place).

But no - drinking alcohol definitely wouldn't contribute to your immediate blood glucose - as long as the alcohol is no-carb! Absolutely. I have had a tough time explaining to folk - including an otherwise delightful English barmaid once - that it is not alcohol that is dangerous for diabetics - or no more than for ordinary folk, lol - but the carbs in it are dangerous for us. Therefore very/low or no-carb alcohol is the trick. Hence your dry wines. Spirits - zero carbs, as the fermentation process has used up the sugar (the alcohol making greeblies ate it! If I have understood fermentation properly.) Or a huge amount of the sugar (I'm thinking of ciders, which are not as low-carb as a dry wine).

Beer - a no no no no when low-carbing. Lots of carbs. Liquid bread. But this I am sure you know.

Talking of bread rolls - thanks for the almond flour Swedish bread roll recipe - duly saved and looking forward to baking.

And yes - do keep me posted @Neohdiver - for sure! Good luck with the Low-calorie eating! (That is what you are doing?)

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I thought that alcohol jumped the queue for the liver, and just delayed the processing of glucose.
So you didn't see a rise until the alcohol had all been processed but then the queue cleared and you got a delayed sugar hit.
Hmmm....in that case my new diet is continuous booze and the carbs can just sit there waiting!

 

[Neohdiver]

I thought that alcohol jumped the queue for the liver, and just delayed the processing of glucose.
So you didn't see a rise until the alcohol had all been processed but then the queue cleared and you got a delayed sugar hit.
Hmmm....in that case my new diet is continuous booze and the carbs can just sit there waiting!

I was checking for several hours after that, and didn't have any rise that wasn't directly attributable to the large salad I had roughly 5 hours after the glass of wine.

So if it hit later, it was in the middle of the night. (And fasting blood glucose was about what it's been recently.

I think there are two things going on - one is the conversion of carbs into glucose, the other is the conversion of glycogen and other things into glucose by the liver. To the extent I've got it figured out, your blood glucose is a combination of (at least) two things: The glucose just converted from carbs and the glucose converted from glycogen by the liver. Alcohol shuts down the latter (which might mean I could add carbs that would produce glucose equivalent to the missing glucose added by the liver).

I'm rambling long before I reach the stage of personal research where I usually start rambling - so don't take anything I say as gospel.

 

[tim2000s]

That last point is key. The liver is single threaded so while it processes alcohol it neither burns fat nor creates glucose. As a result, you are replacing the background generation with whatever you eat, as long as you don't eat too much...

 

[britishpub]

I think you are all over thinking this

 

[Neohdiver]

Therefore very/low or no-carb alcohol is the trick. Hence your dry wines. Spirits - zero carbs, as the fermentation process has used up the sugar (the alcohol making greeblies ate it! If I have understood fermentation properly.) Or a huge amount of the sugar (I'm thinking of ciders, which are not as low-carb as a dry wine).

Beer - a no no no no when low-carbing. Lots of carbs. Liquid bread. But this I am sure you know.

That's what started this entire train of thought. The wine I drank yesterday likely had more carbs than beer. The high carb beer lists I've looked at mostly were around 15-20 carbs. Barefoot Moscato (not the brand I had - just one I could find) has 6.84 grams of residual sugar per 100 ml. That's between 34.8 and 43.5 grams of carb per 5 oz serving according to this chart. So - that should be worse than liquid bread! I can't find the residual sugar or carbs in the brand I did have, but it tasted very sweet, so I was expecting the worst. And nada.

Talking of bread rolls - thanks for the almond flour Swedish bread roll recipe - duly saved and looking forward to baking.

And yes - do keep me posted @Neohdiver - for sure! Good luck with the Low-calorie eating! (That is what you are doing?)

I'm counting 3 things. Ugh. Carb cap - 20 net grams/3 hours or 50 net grams/day, Protein target 60 grams/day (excess protein and the risk of chronic kidney disease that comes with diabetes doesn't seem like a good mix to me), and a calorie cap (1200).

The losing part is a piece of cake for me - once I get motivated, the weight comes off. It is the daily grind of tracking not just one, but three numbers day after day forever that will get me. I'm ok as long as my life is stable, but I haven't had a stable life for nearly a decade.

I've struggled with weight in the past, and maintained for several years at the target I'm heading for using a structure that didn't require me to count anything. Unfortunately, that way of eating is entirely incompatible with my body's carb limitation and with the restrictions limited carbs impose on this particular weight loss. I'll ultimately have to find a way of eating within the carb limitation that does not involve counting - but I don't have the bandwidth to sort that out now.

 

[Neohdiver]

I think you are all over thinking this

That could well be.

But in all seriousness overthinking things has served me very well with the collection or mundane to rare health conditions our family has to deal with.

I've got full use of my left arm following a condition that normally leaves life-long impairment. The doctors threw up their hands and gave me the "best you can hope for" speech and I asked them to bring me what they were finding in their research. We put together the pieces - meaning I proposed - and they agreed to - an approach that has given me full use of my left arm for nearly 3 decades. That was the first of many similar beneficial outcomes from my overthinking.

That one wasn't connected to an internet support forum - but several of the later ones were the direct result of the kind of noodling I'm doing here. (This is the first one I've started a conversation about, though, when I hadn't run everything I could to the ground yet)

 

[Neohdiver]

Ok. Doing a teeny-tiny experiment.

I'm having the same wine I had yesterday - and am eating my evening salad at the same time. That will definitely put me over 20 net carbs (my normal max), since the salad alone is pushing the cap.

Yesterday I separated them by 3-4 hours, because I figured I'd need to buffer the wine with fats to avoid a spike. Since I got a dip instead of the expected spike, I'll see what happens when I combine it with a salad that usually elevates my blood glucose to about 7.

Testing it with a roll is a long time down the road, since I need my non-fat calories for nutrients (or, I guess, an occasional glass of wine ). But I'm curious - and I need a pleasant distraction from grading papers.

Before 1st sip of wine 5.1
@ 1 hour after 1st bite of 21 net carb salad - 6.3 (1.25 hours after starting 6 oz of Moscato (sweet) wine)
@ 2 hours after 1st bite of salad - 6.7
@ 3 hours after 1st bite of salad - 5.6

So 11-14 carbs in the wine (based on three brands I found that published data) + 21 net carbs, for a total of 32-35 net carbs & my BG is ~5% lower than usual after eating virtually identical 20 net carb salads over the past week. I like that! It gives me hope that once I have a few more calories to play with I may actually be able to have a small carb splurge once in a while.

 

[tim2000s]

That's what started this entire train of thought. The wine I drank yesterday likely had more carbs than beer. The high carb beer lists I've looked at mostly were around 15-20 carbs. Barefoot Moscato (not the brand I had - just one I could find) has 6.84 grams of residual sugar per 100 ml. That's between 34.8 and 43.5 grams of carb per 5 oz serving according to this chart. So - that should be worse than liquid bread! I can't find the residual sugar or carbs in the brand I did have, but it tasted very sweet, so I was expecting the worst. And nada.

I think something may be wrong in your calculation.

5 imperial fl. oz is 142ml, 5 US fl. oz is more like 150ml, so the total carbs in your serving was about 9g, not the 35g you've calculated.

Even a very sweet wine at 10g/100mlwould only be 14-15g carbs.

 

[iHs]

Be really careful of alcohol's harmful influence on liver function. Drinking just 3 bottles of wine every week is enough to cause liver problems later in life especially for women and once scaring takes place, then its time to get financial affairs in order and hope very much that a transplant can be done within 4yrs

 

[Neohdiver]

Be really careful of alcohol's harmful influence on liver function. Drinking just 3 bottles of wine every week is enough to cause liver problems later in life especially for women and once scaring takes place, then its time to get financial affairs in order and hope very much that a transplant can be done within 4yrs

Perhaps you missed this comment in my very first post (the thread starter), " I also don't drink much (the 4 glasses of wine in 4 months is fairly typical, not something new since diagnosis/starting to eat low carb). And I'm not likely to start making drinking an every day thing, just to increase my carb cap."

If I drink 3 bottles in a YEAR, it would be a significant increase - let alone increasing it to 52 times that.

As for warning me about liver transplants, I was very careful to describe my very limited alcohol consumption, to talk about the possibility of having a bit of a carb splurge on the rare occasion when I have a glass of wine, etc. specifically to allow the conversation to focus on the biological question I was wrestling with - rather than turning into a debate about the evils of alcohol.

To address the issue you seem to think I am in the dark about, I have daughter who will almost certainly need a transplant (for a disease unrelated to alcohol), and have watched many friends (with the same disease) live (and some not) through transplants - a few of them multiple times, and I have also lost a few who didn't make it to the top of the list before they died, or their condition deteriorated too much to be eligible for a transplant any longer. I'm very well versed in the process and costs associated with transplants, the ratio of donor livers to people who need them, and the very strict limitations placed on listing anyone who needs a transplant because of cirrhosis caused by alcohol. I even know where we would move to maximize my daughter's chances of reaching the top of the list before she dies of liver failure.

I really did not want this thread turning into a conversation about the evils of alcohol.

 

[Neohdiver]

I think something may be wrong in your calculation.

5 imperial fl. oz is 142ml, 5 US fl. oz is more like 150ml, so the total carbs in your serving was about 9g, not the 35g you've calculated.

Even a very sweet wine at 10g/100mlwould only be 14-15g carbs.

You are correct. I didn't actually calculate the carbs (I should have). I found sample residual sugar amounts for wines made from the same grape and relied on a conversion chart that was apparently wildly inaccurate!

I later found more complete nutritional data for one vintner's version of the wine and your calculations are dead on.(9.6 grams of residual sugar 100 ml/ - 14 grams of carbs per 5 oz serving.)

 

[Neohdiver]

Could be something in it..?
I've noticed similar with vodka...

Fair play, I can bolus for what I eat. But certain foods like chips or pizza come back to bite me in the **** much later.. Keeping it simple & for that reason, I don't do em.. (Twice a year is excessive for me.) on the whole I LC.

But on a night out or a band tour with no other option with a few scoops of voddy? I wake up a healthy 4.8 with no dawn phenomenon.. Not even a nocturnal hypo..

I'm no expert. Just noticed @Neohdiver your on metformin? I believe this drug also helps to stop liver dump.. Might be worth factoring in..? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

In principle, I think you're right - and it may even have a similar mechanism (a liver signaling connection with Metformin rings a bell about articles I've read recently.)

The dose I'm on is low enough that it doesn't really do much. After a month or so on it, I started being under 5.6 most mornings. I didn't notice any simultaneous difference in the carb quantity I can consume. So if it is a factor there, it is an extremely minor factor.

 

[britishpub]

I really did not want this thread turning into a conversation about the evils of alcohol.

But it certainly lightened the mood

 

[Neohdiver]

But it certainly lightened the mood

The bulk of the comments were either thoughtful information relative to the question I asked, or something akin to black humor: we're all in this together so we might as well poke fun at it.

The comment I reacted to felt more like a lecture on the evils of alcohol - out of line given my careful disclaimers about how little I drink and the context in which I might take advantage of it. Also too close to home given that my interactions with the liver transplantation process come on a weekly (if not more frequently) basis.

 

[AloeSvea]

That wine folly residual sugar content in wine chart is fabulous! Thanks heaps for that @Neohdiver.