Angry! Angry! Angry!

[Welshman1952]

Well, 30 mins ago, I came away from the first of a 2-part course on diabetes education. I didn't go out of some masochistic mechanism but because I was referred by my doctor and DN. Blimey ... what a travesty.

Over three hours I was encouraged to eat plenty of rice, potato and pasta, told bread was good for me and that there was no need to avoid sugary beans or sweet and sour sauces. Moreover, occasional sweets biscuits are fine, but fats and sweeteners should be avoided (as the latter give you diarrhoea). Oh, and there is absolutely no need to use a BG monitor unless I am taking insulin.

Tragically, the other ten diabetics in the room were lapping it up. Many of the questions included things like "can I still have biscuits/ Mars bars/ milk chocolate etc". In response, the dietician trawled out suggestions of eating healthy and everything in moderation. So, go for it guys and chomp on your rich tea and ginger nuts!!!!

If I was to follow that advice, my HbA1c in three months would be in the 80s (at least) and I would be on a sure track to be taking a wheelbarrow full of meds!

This morning as a result of a largely LCHF diet my fasting BG was 5.2. On top of that none of my test results have been over 7.3 for the last week and most average around 5.5. So, who is right? Is it me with the hard data to support continuation of my diet/ lifestyle, or a bunch of ill-advised, dogmatic HCPs who appear unable to see the wood from the trees?

The bottom line is tragic - their misinformation is destroying the future lives of help-seeking diabetics. Those professionals should feel ashamed!

 

[Brunneria]

Beautiful post.

 

[kazC]

Oh dear - no wonder you're hacked off. As you say, the others that know no better will think they've been given wonderful advice, and will scratch their heads when their numbers aren't going in the right direction.

Not going back for part 2 then??!

 

[Lindy1706]

This is the reason I turned down the "opportunity" of attending a course as I knew the stress of having to sit there listening to the complete twaddle that I knew would be totted out would send my nicely controlled blood sugars through the roof.

You have my sympathy.


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Welshman1952]

Oh I will go back, but not because I want more of the same. The only reason to return is because there are other T2Ds there and maybe I can convince one or two of them to take a look at the forum. I don't have enough knowledge to answer their questions, but there are enough people on here who can help lift that dark grey cloud hanging over them.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Perhaps you could give your new chums a farewell gift at the end of part 2 - a link to this forum? 10 Mars Bars and a Sharpie pen well spent.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Each course comes with a special offer a free weekend break at your local hospital.

 

[Catlady19]

Oh that's such a shame, the course I did was really good and gave a good LC message. Did you manage to speak out at all?

 

[Prem51]

Look on the bright side @Welshman1952 , you found this forum before going to this course and found out for yourself how to control your condition. You might have gone without that knowledge and just accepted the advice like the others there.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. How sad that 'experts' are giving out this dangerous information that potentially results in early organ failure, amputations and early death as well as wasting millions of NHS budget on meds - it's that serious. One day someone will sue one of these experts and which will be well-deserved as there is no excuse.

 

[ChrisSamsDad]

Sadly, science, especially medical science, can't and doesn't turn around as fast a London cab, and it shouldn't in many cases. There does seem to be pretty good evidence to me, but it's not just individuals that need convincing, it's a system. I'm definitely not for health professionals going against the flow as a matter of course. Generally speaking, improvements in medicines have been as a result of more evidence-based medicine, not less, so just because you hear a convincing argument for a new treatment, is no reason to overthrow previous thinking, but to investigate and test until you're sure. There are some incredibly successful quack doctors out there who do just start flogging treatments - supplements and books etc. The only one who benefits it them.

Individual HCPs cant' really go it alone - they have to do their jobs within the system they're in. It's actually the health services that need to review their thinking, and that's going to be slow - and they should take a systematic approach too, not just jump in. There does need to be more research, because, though it's been successful for many of us, there are an unknown number of people who didn't succeed, and we need to know why and what can be done to improve things, and also what long term effects there are from this approach. Personally I think this diet isn't for everyone, it requires too much knowledge and commitment, but for me, who was interested in the science and prepared to commit some thinking and shopping time to it, it has worked well so far, but I'm only 3 months in.

 

[fene48]

JohnEGreen - I love your dummy spit. It was the best rant I heard in ages. BUT - really justified.
I'm going to a support group here in Sydney (with about 50 regulars) but I have not caught a whiff of such **** advice from any one - expert presenters, visitors pr memebers. They would be shouted down if they tried such nonsense.
Glad you are going back - will you make yourself popular by a bit unlimbering there. Would give a motza to see it.
Excuse the typos its late here.

 

[Bluetit1802]

It is precisely why I declined my invitation to the X-Pert course 2 years ago. My own DN was one of the course leaders. The other course leader was another DN in my practice. At my first appointment with my DN she told me I could eat anything I liked in moderation, but have jacket potatoes with baked beans regularly and plenty of wholemeal bread. I went away from that first meeting with her as happy as Larry because I was under the impression I could continue to eat more or less what I wanted apart from anything fatty.

Since then my DN has done a U-turn and now has copies of Trudi Deakin's book Eat Fat. (Trudi is the founder of the X-Pert courses and spends time re-training her course leaders). However, although my DN is now an advocate of low carb and higher fat, she STILL tells me to eat plenty of bread.

 

[Enclave]

I have the same rubbish from my diabetic nurse ... could you not print up a few posters ..A4 and hand them out to your fellow diabetics after the second part of your course has ended ... LINK the one near the very end of the list is good its titled managing your diabetes ... also this one

 

[Welshman1952]

Hmm, that could stir up the ****!! .... I might just do it!

 

[Daibell]

Sadly, science, especially medical science, can't and doesn't turn around as fast a London cab, and it shouldn't in many cases. There does seem to be pretty good evidence to me, but it's not just individuals that need convincing, it's a system. I'm definitely not for health professionals going against the flow as a matter of course. Generally speaking, improvements in medicines have been as a result of more evidence-based medicine, not less, so just because you hear a convincing argument for a new treatment, is no reason to overthrow previous thinking, but to investigate and test until you're sure. There are some incredibly successful quack doctors out there who do just start flogging treatments - supplements and books etc. The only one who benefits it them.

Individual HCPs cant' really go it alone - they have to do their jobs within the system they're in. It's actually the health services that need to review their thinking, and that's going to be slow - and they should take a systematic approach too, not just jump in. There does need to be more research, because, though it's been successful for many of us, there are an unknown number of people who didn't succeed, and we need to know why and what can be done to improve things, and also what long term effects there are from this approach. Personally I think this diet isn't for everyone, it requires too much knowledge and commitment, but for me, who was interested in the science and prepared to commit some thinking and shopping time to it, it has worked well so far, but I'm only 3 months in.

Hi. I don't agree with your view but each to their own. If the 'loads of carbs' NHS advice was evidence-based I might be happy but it isn't based on any real scientific evidence so the low-carb approach on this forum and elsewhere is just as valid. BTW I've been a professional engineer all my life and in my work I never slavishly followed any dictum; I made my own 'professional' decisions and was expected to by my employer. I expect medical professionals to not just follow advice handed-down but to intelligently interpret information and protest if they think it's wrong.

 

[Robinredbreast]

Well, 30 mins ago, I came away from the first of a 2-part course on diabetes education. I didn't go out of some masochistic mechanism but because I was referred by my doctor and DN. Blimey ... what a travesty.

Over three hours I was encouraged to eat plenty of rice, potato and pasta, told bread was good for me and that there was no need to avoid sugary beans or sweet and sour sauces. Moreover, occasional sweets biscuits are fine, but fats and sweeteners should be avoided (as the latter give you diarrhoea). Oh, and there is absolutely no need to use a BG monitor unless I am taking insulin.

Tragically, the other ten diabetics in the room were lapping it up. Many of the questions included things like "can I still have biscuits/ Mars bars/ milk chocolate etc". In response, the dietician trawled out suggestions of eating healthy and everything in moderation. So, go for it guys and chomp on your rich tea and ginger nuts!!!!

If I was to follow that advice, my HbA1c in three months would be in the 80s (at least) and I would be on a sure track to be taking a wheelbarrow full of meds!

This morning as a result of a largely LCHF diet my fasting BG was 5.2. On top of that none of my test results have been over 7.3 for the last week and most average around 5.5. So, who is right? Is it me with the hard data to support continuation of my diet/ lifestyle, or a bunch of ill-advised, dogmatic HCPs who appear unable to see the wood from the trees?

The bottom line is tragic - their misinformation is destroying the future lives of help-seeking diabetics. Those professionals should feel ashamed!

I am not type 2, but.............. if these products caused a problem with getting diabetes ( but not in all) then surely continuing to eat them will still cause problems, or is that only on diet and exercise alone, or take the meds and fill yourself up, (but within reason and in moderation) ?
Could be a bit like closing the stable doors after the horse has bolted !!

 

[carol43]

That's why I only attended one session. I thought the women running the course where quite rude to me when I disagreed with their advice. I had a questionnaire to fill up afterwards when my DN asked why I had not completed the four sessions. I was blunt with my answers.

 

[ChrisSamsDad]

Hi. I don't agree with your view but each to their own. If the 'loads of carbs' NHS advice was evidence-based I might be happy but it isn't based on any real scientific evidence so the low-carb approach on this forum and elsewhere is just as valid. BTW I've been a professional engineer all my life and in my work I never slavishly followed any dictum; I made my own 'professional' decisions and was expected to by my employer. I expect medical professionals to not just follow advice handed-down but to intelligently interpret information and protest if they think it's wrong.

Well, just because evidence is poor for one approach, is no reason to take another evidence-poor approach.
I think you probably did slavishly follow dictums in engineering - I'm sure you didn't investigate and establish every single received wisdom assumption you made. I'm a software development manager of 25 years+ experience and I want my developers to use existing patterns ('Recipes') wherever possible - true, sometimes someone will come up with an improvement or a new pattern, but those are few and far between, and the chances of a developer throwing out the rule book and coming up with a better one is pretty slim - and if it was turning the established wisdom on its head I'd want very strong evidence it was better and didn't actually make things worse.

As a professional in complex multi-disciplinary environment (me, you, HCP) you simply don't have time to build every opinion from scratch, but you componentise your thinking and beliefs. I'm not a specialist in many areas of software - if I needed some web-pages building I'd trust the opinion of an experienced web developer with proven success a long way before I threw out his advice and made my own decision.

 

[Welshman1952]

Just to add my 5p worth here if we are pushing our professional experience. I was an academic and researcher for most of my professional life, working largely in the health sector. During that time the core modus operandi was to follow best "known" medical practice. Unfortunately, on the diabetes front there is a mixed bag of evidence based practice. Peer reviewed research remains vague and contradictory. All that is clear is that NICE are, once again, entrenched and unwilling to offer new guidance based on current studies.

As has been said elsewhere, our health service is always slow to change and while this has some merit, it also brings with it dangers. I would suggest part of the problem is that Diabetes UK has a substantial hold on research monies and while they continue to push eating carbs, HCPs, who often have very little time to read peer reviewed journals, will often just follow like sheep.

Perhaps there is an argument for us to be supporting new longitudinal studies to explore the benefits of LCHF in the treatment of diabetes. If anyone can get the money, I am happy to come out of retirement