Eating High Carb Low Fat, an alternative?

[tatterzombie]

@NoCrbs4Me As I have stated before I am really bad at dieting.. While I was doing hclf without slip ups I had my glucose numbers in the non diabetic range.. HCLF with slip ups pushes them to the prediabetic range.. My goal by doing ND is to get to a point where I can have a slip up once in a while without my blood glucose getting out of range.. I also think ND can be a good way to distance myself from food and rethink my relationship with it.. It has been working well till now as long as one disregards Wednesday when I ate all oranges that were left in my fridge..
And in case you are thinking "if you can't keep doing hclf, do something else.." I would like to inform that I have tried many and till now I haven't found one that I could stick to without ever slipping up..

Thanks @Pipp . I have now added sunflower seeds to the daily flax seeds..

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@tatterzombie It is said that the best diet is the one you can stick to

 

[Brunneria]

@tatterzombie It is said that the best diet is the one you can stick to

Absolutely!
Shudder to think of the number of different ones I tried before finding how well my body likes my current way of eating (but it isn't HCLF)

 

[daisyduck]

I think we all have to find the diet that suits our bodies.
I've spent 40 years yo-yo dieting on low calorie low fat diets.. even going vegetarian for 2 years. Each time I ended up putting more weight back on, even while still dieting.
Just over 2 years ago I was diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome. which includes type 2 diabetes and Non Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease NAFLD.. where did that come from ?? I'd always ate as little fat as possible. Cholesterol was at 8.6 (family tendency though)
2 years+ into LCHF. I've lost 2 stones and find it really easy to maintain weight now.
My NAFLD has gone.. I was discharged from the liver clinic at the hospital with the specialist saying my liver had been consistently normal for a year now.
My cholesterol reduced to 5.8.. still not as perfect as they would like but the good bit has risen
I feel great, I'm told I look great and I'm so happy to find something that works for me.
It's no longer a diet, it's a way of life. We had friends over for Sunday lunch and I did roast pork, crackling, loads of veg, roast potatoes and Yorkshire puds. I ate my usual meat, veg .. and plenty of crackling. One of my friends said.. you know it's ok to have a day off from dieting now and again.. it was then I realised that I don't want to eat any other way!
I made us all a sugar/wheat free roulade dessert.. they said it was fab and didn't even know it was low carb

 

[sandology]

If I had to choose a plate of fried chicken Wings or a plate of plain baked sweet potatoes...it would be the chicken wings. Dr Furhman nearly got me but I miss my chicken and oil too much. I'm now on a LCHF 800 cals a day diet for 8 weeks and I'm doing fine on day 6 with my carbs under 20g. On YouTube I saw a video where a diabetic was eating 500g carbs plus but was exercising and ate no meat and no oil.
It now makes sense.
Understanding the Slimming World red and green day's I can carb rotate in future if I want.
Knowing which carbs spike me most is my next challenge after getting my Hba1c to a consistent normal.
Rice n peas but no oil or chicken or
Chicken and oil but no rice n peas.
Problem solved. Lol

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@sandology Welcome to the vegetarian diet forum

 

[MarianaElberg]

B

 

[Alexandra100]

So @tim2000s asked if I could make a topic discussing a high carb low fat diet for diabetes type 2 control.
A disclaimer up front: I am extremely bad at dieting.. Most of the time I can't keep dieting for longer than a month or two.. I have been overweight/obese for all my life so I have tried all kinds of diets calorie counting.. low carb.. low gi.. weight watchers.. At some point I always need that forbidden stuff and then I think oh f*** it and forget about the diet..
Right now I am 1.5 weeks into the Newcastle diet and doing really fine (doing a vegan version with ~100 gr carbs, ~80 gr protein, ~8 gr fat a day)

Now that this is out of the way..
I was diagnosed with diabetes September 2014 when my fasting blood glucose was 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/l). Doc had me repeat the test, I wanted to cheat and restricted my carbs the day before and the result was 130 mg/dl (7.2 mmol/l). I didn't do a ha1c test as at the time I was kind of low on iron (due to 3 months of bleeding) and according to him this would flaw the test. I was to take 1 Metformin pill a day (850 mg) and eat low carb and low fat..
On this 1 pill "normal" vegan way of eating I could eat 150 carbs a day and my fbg remained under 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/l)

Enter a few months later the low fat high carb diet (yes, I am finally writing about the stuff you were actually here to read)..
I went heavy on the carbs, a lot of them coming from fruit, no oil.. (300- 400 gr carbs a day)
FBG went higher in the beginning of this, I suppose I just shocked myself with so many carbs.. but they came down to under 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/dl) after two weeks. Unfortunately I cannot find my diary from this time right now. I suppose it would be much better to start slower with the carb introduction..
Three months later I had my hemoglobin a1c done still on 1 pill a day it was 5.3 (I think the units were mmol/l) which was well in the normal range.

In conclusion:
FBG fall way faster than the weight does on this way of eating..
You cannot immediately start eating 20 bananas a day or 1 kg of rice (if that is what you fancy ). This makes sense because according to the theory of the doctors who support this, diabetes type 2 is caused because insulin cannot do its work due to excess fat in the blood and around muscle cells. So it takes some time till no more fat from your food will lead to less fat in the blood stream..
Fat intake has to be really really low.. not the 30% fat low but the 10% fat low..

In the end, if you follow Dr Barnards suggestions for treating, "curing", diabetes type 2 this is still a form of calorie restriction through eating whole plant foods and almost no fat.. It makes eating too much almost impossible..
But as I said before.. fbg and post meal blood glucose readings normalize themselves way faster than the weight you drop might explain..

As for me.. soon after that a1c test I stopped the metformin and everything remained well.. till I got into my "stupid diabetes I will act as if you don't exist" phase and ate higher fat foods.. Still with all this I managed to keep my fbg in the prediabetic range for the past year on no pill, lot's of carbs and occasional binges on cookies, nuts and crisps..
Yes I am in no way somebody whose example you should follow..

Anyway, if you can take advice from somebody as flawed as I am.. and especially if you are vegan or thinking about it. Give it a try, high carb low fat is much nicer than having to think about whether you can fit one more cucumber into your carb allowance for the day.. (at least in my opinion )

This is SO helpful to me, as I have been suffering on a lowish carb diet, when all I most want to eat is fruit and dairy. It's great to get a report from real life. Now I'll explore the high carb alternative, at any rate in my dreams! Do you recommend buying Dr Barnard's book?

 

[Alexandra100]

@tatterzombie
Thank you for an alternative view on LCHF - at last!
Does this mean there is possible credence in the NHS mantra of 'lose and maintain a good weight, eat a very healthy diet' .... Which does include a 'balanced' eat well plate????
Does this also mean that that HCPs do actually have some knowledge of what they are talking about - perhaps contrary to some views held in here?

Retreating to my trench, donning the body armour and await the 'incoming'!

Congratulations on your insane courage!!! Sadly, I know the NHS mantra you cite doesn't work for me, as I was doing all that when I was diagnosed with an A1c of 41. I envy the people who have only to adopt my preferred way of life, including exercise, to be cured of diabetes. I obviously have to do something else, not sure what.

 

[Alexandra100]

Is there a place on this forum where one could keep a kind of diary about their progress?

See the Blogs section? Later - sorry, I see this has already been suggested.

 

[Geordie_P]

It's been a while since this thread was started- how did everyone get on with the HCLF?

I tend to drop weight and bg readings when I avoid carbs as much as possible, but that can be limiting, so I'd be very pleased to hear about alternative routes to weight-loss.

 

[KathyCP]

Enter a few months later the low fat high carb diet (yes, I am finally writing about the stuff you were actually here to read)..
I went heavy on the carbs, a lot of them coming from fruit, no oil.. (300- 400 gr carbs a day)
FBG went higher in the beginning of this, I suppose I just shocked myself with so many carbs.. but they came down to under 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/dl) after two weeks. Unfortunately I cannot find my diary from this time right now. I suppose it would be much better to start slower with the carb introduction..
Three months later I had my hemoglobin a1c done still on 1 pill a day it was 5.3 (I think the units were mmol/l) which was well in the normal range.

my experience was the exact opposite of yours - my bg climbed surely and steadily on a lfch diet, even though i was only eating 'good' carbs. i was eating a little fish in addition to a lacto-veggie diet, but not much.

i switched to a lchf diet about 18 months ago, increased the amount of fish i eat and radically reduced my fruit intake - no more than two pieces a day, and no dried fruit at all. my bg levels dropped dramatically, i was able to come off metformin and all my other blood results stayed normal. although i wasn't particularly overweight, i still dropped a stone in the course of a year and my bp also came down. i actually find it much easier to keep eating this way, and i don't get the munchies nearly so often as i used to doing hclf. on the recommendation of the nutritionist who suggested the lchf diet when i was looking for some help with my rising bg levels, i have the occasional vegan week, during which all my protein comes from lentils, chickpeas, tofu and hummus. i have tried re-introducing starchy carbs and i find i have to be really careful - one thin wrap with salad and an oil and vinegar dressing pushed my post-meal levels up to 10mmol, when they usually average about 7mmol.

so it seems that some of us can't process carbs and some of us can.

 

[Geordie_P]

Say what you will about LCHF enthusiasts, there are a lot of them, and they are always ready with evidence, anecdotes or data. I was looking forward, genuinely, to reading some valid testimonials from the high-carb alternative diets: it all just seems to have dissipated into the ether. Does the silence mean these diets didn't work, or what?

 

[Oldvatr]

Say what you will about LCHF enthusiasts, there are a lot of them, and they are always ready with evidence, anecdotes or data. I was looking forward, genuinely, to reading some valid testimonials from the high-carb alternative diets: it all just seems to have dissipated into the ether. Does the silence mean these diets didn't work, or what?

I found this when I was trying to see how the claims for the Whole Food Plant Based (WFPB) diet might work. and I too found no scientific evidence to back up their claims. I do believe that there were studies done recently on the Mediterranean diet, which is not a ketogenic diet and relatively high carbs. That one does seem to suit some diabetics quite well, but I think it atill needs to be meat / fish based, not pasta based. The Med diet is an improvement on Eatwell, and better than nothing, but I don't think I would benefit from it myself.

Another approach is to go Low GI / Low GL, but I have not met many here doing it. I think that the HCLF diet could possibly work, but it needs to be ultra low fat, like zero fat. Otherwise It will be the same as Eatwell#2 with its so called low fat.

 

[zand]

Low GI/ low GL didn't work for me.
After a few days of HCLF I decided it wasn't for me, at least not for now. It's just so hard to get the amount of fat right. I suspect the actual amount required differs from person to person. Maybe one day, but no in the foreseeable future.

 

[Oldvatr]

Low GI/ low GL didn't work for me.
After a few days of HCLF I decided it wasn't for me, at least not for now. It's just so hard to get the amount of fat right. I suspect the actual amount required differs from person to person. Maybe one day, but no in the foreseeable future.

I use Low GI principles in my diet, but although it flattens the sugar spike a bit by delaying digestion, nonetheless the total glucose created remains the same and actually prolongs the high sugar level for longer since the delayed glucose misses out on the initial insulin rush that should get generated i,e, the Amylase buzz triggered by saliva when you start to eat a meal, not when it finishes.