LCHF - how many grams of carbs per day?

Brunneria

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it wasn't that hard to find from the main page with the links I gave you, did you really try to look? I had to do the same as you would to find it again..open the link and read it
it is obvious to you now that as intended, I under-quoted the Newcastle diet result saying 80%, when it was 100%

as I said I think they got better than the 80% gut surgery that I understated. they say they got 100%
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/about/news/item/low-calorie-diets-for-type-2-diabetes-assessed-copy
This will be the largest single research project Diabetes UK has ever funded in its 79-year history. It follows a study from 2011 that found that 11 people with Type 2 diabetes who spent eight weeks on a low-calorie liquid diet all saw their insulin production return to normal and their Type 2 diabetes put into remission. These findings backed up anecdotal reports and results from bariatric surgery to raise the prospect of transforming the way Type 2 diabetes is treated.

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/DiRECT
Surgical operations, such as gastric banding and gastric bypass, are potential solutions because they lead to dramatic weight loss, which can put Type 2 diabetes into remission for up to 80% of patients. Such treatments; however, are expensive, invasive and carry a risk of surgical complications, all of which mean they can only be offered as a last resort to people who are dangerously obese.

Heck, I am not enjoying writing this.
But Jack, I'm sorry. Your links don't prove anything.

Your first link is a press release - and we all know how they blur and fudge the facts.
Your second link is to Newcastle University, not the study, or even the department which did the study.
And the third link is talking about a future, bigger study, based on the original pilot, and gives a general over-view and then advises people NOT to follow the Newcastle Diet until the results of the 5 year larger study are released, because they have not yet established the long term effects.

Here is a link to the academic department that ran the study, with additional links directly aimed at diabetics.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
If anyone has a link to the actual study itself, then I would love to read it, but I have just ploughed through 3 pages of a google search which contained nothing but hearsay, claims and press releases.

I am posting this because it shows just how important it is that we get our facts straight. Our links right. And that we don't rely on second and third hand blogs, press releases and superficial interpretations as sources of info.
If we are going to post 'facts' they should be backed with references, or they should be unspecific and based on personal experience.

sorry that this is a rant. But this is how rumours, urban myths and dietary f*ck*ps get into the mainstream.
Remember that nonsense about how Atkins diet of a heart attack?
No he didn't. All nonsense. But no one bothered to actually check the FACTS before they peddled the myth.
 
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phoenix

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/?report=reader#!po=32.6087
Re reading the paper with percentages in mind is quite educative . I still think that it is well worth trying but I suspect that a lot will depend upon just exactly what type of T2 the person has and whether an individual can actually cope both mentally and physically with this extreme diet

(note people had to have an HbA1c below 9%, had to be weight stable (BMI between 25 and 45), have had diagnosed diabetes for less than 4 years. They were excluded if on thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, or if they had a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine . transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range)

They got a huge amount of support during the trial.

Here's some figures I gleaned.
15 started the trial
4 dropped out; one for medical reasons, and three for non compliance
11 completed the trial. Results were averaged but there is no doubt that the reduction in glucose levels and every other parameter for the group were outstanding .
Three weeks later
3 of the eleven had returned to diabetic levels following an OGTT
1 was not tested because of non related medical problems
Which to me leaves 7 that we know 'passed the OGTT We don't know anything after this period because it was very much pilot study/test of concept It deliberately used a small number of subjects so that they afford to put them through lots of very expensive tests.
7/11= 63.6%
but if we include the non completers
7/15= 46.6%
 
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Brunneria

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Thanks @phoenix

That was a fascinating read. Although I don't have enough of a scientific background to understand all of it.
 
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AndBreathe

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Thank you @pheonix and @Brunneria. I know I can be a pedant, and I didn't want or mean to start a tiff, but I do feel if we make bold claims or statements, they should be backed up.

I remember how vulnerable I felt at the point of diagnosis, and I would categorise myself as a resilient old bird, so I do feel for those who have fewer resources or access to decent information and care.
 

jack412

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settle... I said to look at the Newcastle and he would find he would have about 80% remission which I remembered is about the same rate as bariatric surgery......and I further said a number 11. they are claiming 100% of the 11

I said "you could look at the Newcastle diet and go hardcore for 8 weeks and have an ~80% chance of remission"
...if you don't like what Newcastle and diabetes.org.uk write and say about the studies and bariatric surgery, take it up with them
 

Spiker

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I think a point to recognise here, which was clear to me, is that Jack was saying "if you go for it, if you make sure you are not one of the dropouts". We are statistics not individuals and dropout and non compliance statistics tell a story that is largely (not entirely) about motivation.
 
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jack412

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way back in post 10 I qualified what I think and that is it depends on your beta cells


in the Newcastle diet report off of the newcastle uni site, I understated it, I think it was higher than 80%
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/
it's similar to gut surgery, though india are getting about 60%, probably because they leave it too long, it should be done within a few years, while there are beta cells left, that is the yes or no
 
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jack412

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/?report=reader#!po=32.6087
Re reading the paper with percentages in mind is quite educative . I still think that it is well worth trying but I suspect that a lot will depend upon just exactly what type of T2 the person has and whether an individual can actually cope both mentally and physically with this extreme diet

(note people had to have an HbA1c below 9%, had to be weight stable (BMI between 25 and 45), have had diagnosed diabetes for less than 4 years. They were excluded if on thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, or if they had a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine . transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range)

They got a huge amount of support during the trial.

Here's some figures I gleaned.
15 started the trial
4 dropped out; one for medical reasons, and three for non compliance
11 completed the trial. Results were averaged but there is no doubt that the reduction in glucose levels and every other parameter for the group were outstanding .
Three weeks later
3 of the eleven had returned to diabetic levels following an OGTT
1 was not tested because of non related medical problems
Which to me leaves 7 that we know 'passed the OGTT We don't know anything after this period because it was very much pilot study/test of concept It deliberately used a small number of subjects so that they afford to put them through lots of very expensive tests.
7/11= 63.6%
but if we include the non completers
7/15= 46.6%
just for arguments sake 7/11= 63.6% falls within my margin of error, I said about 80% [which is bariatric surgery claim] they are claiming 100%, that's a 20% split

life's a funny thing
 

jack412

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Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
Heck, I am not enjoying writing this.
But Jack, I'm sorry. Your links don't prove anything.

Your first link is a press release - and we all know how they blur and fudge the facts.
Your second link is to Newcastle University, not the study, or even the department which did the study.
And the third link is talking about a future, bigger study, based on the original pilot, and gives a general over-view and then advises people NOT to follow the Newcastle Diet until the results of the 5 year larger study are released, because they have not yet established the long term effects.

Here is a link to the academic department that ran the study, with additional links directly aimed at diabetics.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
If anyone has a link to the actual study itself, then I would love to read it, but I have just ploughed through 3 pages of a google search which contained nothing but hearsay, claims and press releases.

I am posting this because it shows just how important it is that we get our facts straight. Our links right. And that we don't rely on second and third hand blogs, press releases and superficial interpretations as sources of info.
If we are going to post 'facts' they should be backed with references, or they should be unspecific and based on personal experience.

sorry that this is a rant. But this is how rumours, urban myths and dietary f*ck*ps get into the mainstream.
Remember that nonsense about how Atkins diet of a heart attack?
No he didn't. All nonsense. But no one bothered to actually check the FACTS before they peddled the myth.
http://www.diabetesforecast.org/2010/mar/weight-loss-surgery-and-type-2-diabetes.html
analysis of more than 600 studies involving over 135,000 patients, 78 percent of patients with type 2 had complete resolution of their diabetes after surgery, and 87 percent had improved blood glucose levels

"Even though we don't understand exactly what we're doing [that cures type 2]," says Buchwald, "if you have one of the bariatric procedures, you have the opportunity—about an 80 percent or better chance—of not being diabetic anymore. Resolved. You don't need medications. Your pancreas won't burn out, and you'll never need insulin. Do you want a lifetime of management, or do you want to take a small risk to have resolution of your disease? I think the patient is entitled to be given that alternative, to be educated about the possibilities that exist today."
 
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