Vibe Lithium batteries :-(

Spiker

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I'm assuming the warning is based on voltage from the battery, so if that is the case, then it's the discharge cycle of the battery that is the issue, not the pump.
No. The lithium battery is working as designed but the pump designers have created an unsafe design by using lithium and not engineering around its cliff-edge voltage function.

If you design a car with suspension made of pasta, it's not the pasta that is faulty, it is the car design.
 
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CarbsRok

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I should not need to check a vital medical device by inspection every night before I go to bed to see if it's going to fail. This is why it has an ALARM of impending failure and I would very much expect that its FDA approval as a medical device depends on it emitting this alarm. The alarm is useless if it occurs during sleep with insufficient time to deal with the alarm before waking, and the device then completely fails, losing pump basal as well as CGM function, without even repeating the alarm.

If I was NICE, in addition to the patient safety risk, I would be ****** off that the workaround is to throw away very expensive batteries at the first sign of depletion, rather than using them through their useful life.

One alarm in the middle of the night, followed by no further alarms followed by total failure of functionality is not acceptable.

If you had a car where the fuel warning light flashed once, and an hour later the car just ran out of fuel, would you say "well keep checking the gauge"? Of course not. You'd report the car to the manufacturer as faulty.

So are you saying then that is totally unacceptable to have to check the tubing of your pump twice a day to make sure there are no bubbles? I ask this question because checking the battery is exactly the same principle. Simple safety checks like this take less than 30 seconds of your time and can save you a sleepless night or DKA. Why is the alarm useless, it takes less than 3 mins to change the battery whether it be day or night. Loss of CGM! that lasts the same amount of time as the battery is out/removed.
Simple solution though for the battery is check and change it if needed before a meal so no IOB is missing.
I've been pumping for over 7 years and have never had any of the problems you have described in your very short pumping experience.:rolleyes:
 
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Hooked

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As to needing to sleep perhaps think like a female and check your battery status before you go to bed. :p
What about times like mine last night? It was showing full battery on the screen when I went to bed, next thing the alarm sounded?
 
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Spiker

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So are you saying then that is totally unacceptable to have to check the tubing of your pump twice a day to make sure there are no bubbles? I ask this question because checking the battery is exactly the same principle. Simple safety checks like this take less than 30 seconds of your time and can save you a sleepless night or DKA. Why is the alarm useless, it takes less than 3 mins to change the battery whether it be day or night. Loss of CGM! that lasts the same amount of time as the battery is out/removed.
Simple solution though for the battery is check and change it if needed before a meal so no IOB is missing.
I've been pumping for over 7 years and have never had any of the problems you have described in your very short pumping experience.:rolleyes:
It would be unacceptable to have to check the tubing in my sleep, and if that was required, the device never would have received approval for use as a consumer medical device.
 

Spiker

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So are you saying then that is totally unacceptable to have to check the tubing of your pump twice a day to make sure there are no bubbles? I ask this question because checking the battery is exactly the same principle. Simple safety checks like this take less than 30 seconds of your time and can save you a sleepless night or DKA. Why is the alarm useless, it takes less than 3 mins to change the battery whether it be day or night. Loss of CGM! that lasts the same amount of time as the battery is out/removed.
Simple solution though for the battery is check and change it if needed before a meal so no IOB is missing.
I've been pumping for over 7 years and have never had any of the problems you have described in your very short pumping experience.:rolleyes:
You seem to agree that the battery alarm is ineffective and a manual daily check as a workaround is needed. I agree. I think that is poor design. I suspect the manufacturer put the (ineffective) battery alarm on the pump in order to gain consumer medical device approval. You are right to highlight the risk of DKA. It's the only elevated risk (vs MDI) with a pump. And it's a very serious one.
 

donnellysdogs

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Have you teported to NICE?

When my alarm for an occlusion did not go off for 10hours, Accuchek not only wanted the used set and unused sets but they took the non alarm very seriously and wanted the pump back for inspection too!!

This was not a straight forward occlusion... This was having big problems everyday for 3 days.

They took the non sounding of the alarm very seriously....

If your manufacturer doesn't take the battery alarms seriously and patients have problems they have to report to NICE. I didn't report this incident to NICE as Accuchek were so on the ball..
 

CarbsRok

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You seem to agree that the battery alarm is ineffective and a manual daily check as a workaround is needed. I agree. I think that is poor design. I suspect the manufacturer put the (ineffective) battery alarm on the pump in order to gain consumer medical device approval. You are right to highlight the risk of DKA. It's the only elevated risk (vs MDI) with a pump. And it's a very serious one.
Err no I am not agreeing that the battery alarm is faulty. What I am saying and this is going to sound very blunt......... Use your pump properly and do the safety checks required to maintain your own well being.
It would be unacceptable to have to check the tubing in my sleep, and if that was required, the device never would have received approval for use as a consumer medical device.
I think you are being a tad obtuse regarding the above comment. I suggested to you that you are meant to check your tubing twice a day, I made no comment about checking it during the night.
Each time you go to the main menu the battery symbol is on display so again no problem about checking it.
No matter what pump you have you as a pump user are required to make these basic checks. Bottom line is, if you can not be bothered and due to your own negligence you become ill then it's your fault and your pump team have every right to question your ability to operate a pump safely.
There are a couple of very good sayings.................... The pump is only as good as the user and it's not plug and play. Both are very true. :)

If your manufacturer doesn't take the battery alarms seriously and patients have problems they have to report to NICE.
There's nothing wrong with the alarms, spikers problem is known as user error :) If there was a problem then the pump would not be on the market.
 

Spiker

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Have you teported to NICE?

When my alarm for an occlusion did not go off for 10hours, Accuchek not only wanted the used set and unused sets but they took the non alarm very seriously and wanted the pump back for inspection too!!

This was not a straight forward occlusion... This was having big problems everyday for 3 days.

They took the non sounding of the alarm very seriously....

If your manufacturer doesn't take the battery alarms seriously and patients have problems they have to report to NICE. I didn't report this incident to NICE as Accuchek were so on the ball..
Cheers I will do as you suggest.
 

donnellysdogs

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Err no I am not agreeing that the battery alarm is faulty. What I am saying and this is going to sound very blunt......... Use your pump properly and do the safety checks required to maintain your own well being.

I think you are being a tad obtuse regarding the above comment. I suggested to you that you are meant to check your tubing twice a day, I made no comment about checking it during the night.
Each time you go to the main menu the battery symbol is on display so again no problem about checking it.
No matter what pump you have you as a pump user are required to make these basic checks. Bottom line is, if you can not be bothered and due to your own negligence you become ill then it's your fault and your pump team have every right to question your ability to operate a pump safely.
There are a couple of very good sayings.................... The pump is only as good as the user and it's not plug and play. Both are very true. :)


There's nothing wrong with the alarms, spikers problem is known as user error :) If there was a problem then the pump would not be on the market.

Diagree with you there... It is important that if any patient experiences problems then the company of manufacturer should take note and it's down to patients to advise companies and NICE when there are issues.

If everybody just sat back and didn't raise concerns then for example Accuchek (again brilliant!) wouldn't have withdrawn their faulty sets back 4 years ago....

If batteries are going dead for whatever reason and warnings are not adequate how on earth do you expect companies to improve their equipment without feedback from real users.

First I have ever heard that a patient could be blamed for a battery failure or life of a battery. Pumps are meant to be user friendly, if they aren't then something should be done..and only problem reporting will improve pumps.
 
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donnellysdogs

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Reporting to NICE does not automatically make a full investigation absolute....

They ask companies of electrical or mechanical machines to investigate themselves!! If they deem that the problem is serious enough.

Apart from that, they basically are a source of monitoring the qty of complaints about mechanics, drugs etc.. They haven't got equipment or funding to investigate every complaint as people may imagine happens....

So unless people state all problems like battery life, set problems like below
ImageUploadedByDCUK Forum1412147652.032561.jpg
then our mechanical gadgets will never improve....
 
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Spiker

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Err no I am not agreeing that the battery alarm is faulty. What I am saying and this is going to sound very blunt......... Use your pump properly and do the safety checks required to maintain your own well being.

I think you are being a tad obtuse regarding the above comment. I suggested to you that you are meant to check your tubing twice a day, I made no comment about checking it during the night.
Each time you go to the main menu the battery symbol is on display so again no problem about checking it.
No matter what pump you have you as a pump user are required to make these basic checks. Bottom line is, if you can not be bothered and due to your own negligence you become ill then it's your fault and your pump team have every right to question your ability to operate a pump safely.
There are a couple of very good sayings.................... The pump is only as good as the user and it's not plug and play. Both are very true. :)


There's nothing wrong with the alarms, spikers problem is known as user error :) If there was a problem then the pump would not be on the market.
And my error is what exactly? Being asleep when the one alarm went off prior to total pump and CGM failure??

By your flawed logic, never report any medical device issue, because if there was a problem "it wouldn't be on the market". So the US and UK and EU can just close their reporting agencies and go home can they?
 

CarbsRok

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@CarbsRok, are you finished with the personal attacks on me yet?
There is no personal attack I can assure you and I'm sorry you have taken it this way. :(
Click to expand...
And my error is what exactly? Being asleep when the one alarm went off prior to total pump and CGM failure??
Erm if it's due to battery running out because you didn't change it then it's hardly the pump companies fault is it?
By your flawed logic, never report any medical device issue, because if there was a problem "it wouldn't be on the market". So the US and UK and EU can just close their reporting agencies and go home can they?
The pump and cgm will stop when you change the battery anyway. Put a new battery in and problem solved. This happens on all pumps. No power due to battery change time :)
If your battery failed in the night without warning ie showing 2 bars perhaps you had a faulty battery which is not the fault of the pump company.
If anyone has a problem with their pump not working then it's obvious that you report it.
I have to admit if I had read your posts regarding the animas pump I would be put off pumping for life :( I personally do not like the animas pump, that's due to having a highly sophisticated pump as my first pump. But saying that the animas does the job and I'm grateful for it.
 

Engineer88

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Spiker I've got to say I think your making this much more difficult than it needs to be. Its electronic - it needs batteries. The batteries are supplied free to you. Change the **** batteries. Problem well and truly solved.
 
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Spiker

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Well I spoke to Animas on this. They said the expectation is that from Low Battery warning to Replace Battery warning is 30 minutes and from Replace Battery to system shutdown is an expectation of 3 minutes. They were not aware that these timings/windows are hugely increased with alkaline batteries. They advised keeping spare batteries by the side of the bed, which I already do. They accepted that the narrow window of warning on the lithium batteries means there is a significant likelihood of the warning and failure all occurring during sleep. They accepted that doing a full cycle of battery change, detach canula, rewind, load, prime, reattach canula is not ideal while asleep in the middle of the night. They are asking R & D to see if it is possible to set a more sensitive battery alarm threshold when a lithium battery is in use, and vice versa for an alkaline battery. They supported the approach of using alkaline batteries to avoid this problem. When asked, they had no other suggestions. They did not make the suggestion of changing batteries early (ie at 2 bars), as was suggested here.

@Engineer88 I don't know why you think I am "making this too difficult"? I'm not "doing" anything. I'm reporting a problem I had with my pump - on the forum, and to Animas. I don't have a problem "changing the **** batteries", but I'd rather not have to do so in the middle of the night, and I particularly don't want the risk of sleeping through a pump shutdown. Of course there are workarounds. There are always workarounds. But I would rather have a pump that engineered around this problem so that users didn't have to come up with undocumented workarounds.


As #donnellysdogs said, this is how the devices get improved, when we give feedback. And Animas has taken it on board, which is good.
 
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donnellysdogs

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Well I spoke to Animas on this. They said the expectation is that from Low Battery warning to Replace Battery warning is 30 minutes and from Replace Battery to system shutdown is an expectation of 3 minutes. They were not aware that these timings/windows are hugely increased with alkaline batteries. They advised keeping spare batteries by the side of the bed, which I already do. They accepted that the narrow window of warning on the lithium batteries means there is a significant likelihood of the warning and failure all occurring during sleep. They accepted that doing a full cycle of battery change, detach canula, rewind, load, prime, reattach canula is not ideal while asleep in the middle of the night. They are asking R & D to see if it is possible to set a more sensitive battery alarm threshold when a lithium battery is in use, and vice versa for an alkaline battery. They supported the approach of using alkaline batteries to avoid this problem. When asked, they had no other suggestions. They did not make the suggestion of changing batteries early (ie at 2 bars), as was suggested here.

@Engineer88 I don't know why you think I am "making this too difficult"? I'm not "doing" anything. I'm reporting a problem I had with my pump - on the forum, and to Animas. I don't have a problem "changing the **** batteries", but I'd rather not have to do so in the middle of the night, and I particularly don't want the risk of sleeping through a pump shutdown. Of course there are workarounds. There are always workarounds. But I would rather have a pump that engineered around this problem so that users didn't have to come up with undocumented workarounds.


As #donnellysdogs said, this is how the devices get improved, when we give feedback. And Animas has taken it on board, which is good.

Good for you Spiker for taking the time out to take this issue forward with Animas. These timings to me sound dreadful.

This is only my viewpoint, but I too would have been speaking to Animas if I had issues like this.

Without taking these concerns up, then there would never be improvements for anything in life!!

To be honest I don't even know what they are for my accuchek pump!!

I (as a totally different issue but relevent in a strange way) and others from my PPG regularly do surveys of Patients opinions at our Practice. We take time out to listen to Patients. We now have a TV/DVD and new toys that we were given a grant from our local Council. A new large repeat prescription was purchased and moved to the foyer. The opening hours are now being considered for Saturday openings, the telephone answering system has been upgraded and their is no longer engaged tones when you phone at 8am in the morning and you know where you are in the queue. So many improvements have beem made I can't list them all...

This is all due to improving feedback and a few members of the Patients Group caring enough to use their own time to speak to Patients and the Practice.

There are so many improvements made that in our current survey our Patient satisfaction is now in the high 90%'s!

This isn't blowing my own trumpet, a lot of Patients and the Practice staff are working together to make huge improvements.

You can sit on your ass and put up with things in this world, or like Spiker has done you can take the time out and speak to people to express concerns and try to make a difference for the better...

Well done Spiker!!!
 
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anniehi41

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I was advised by the Animas rep when I first got my pump in May to always change the batteries when there are two segments left because it goes down very quickly after that, so I always do that, I but I agree it's an awful waste of NHS cash and needs to be addressed. Animas must have known about this for a long time and it is worrying that they have been able to get away with a fault as obvious as this.
 
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