Eating Saturated Fat doesn't increase fats in blood

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
No I don't take a statin Jack, it was suggested I should around 3 years ago after I had a health scare (chest pains) and my TC went above 4, the Cardio Nurse thought that all diabetics should be on statins and my Endo at the time agreed, he wrote to my gp and said I should start on them.

However, after a few weeks I made an appointment to see my gp and he said I had excellent cholesterol levels and didn't see the need to start on statins, I had at that point just had Angiogram and everything was fine and this was another reason why he didn't want me to take a statin, after speaking with the Endo again we agreed to agree that we should leave things for now and review the subject a few years down the line. If and when the time comes I'd happily take a statin, did a little research on the subject at the time and think I would ask to start on Artovastatin if I were to take one, of all the statins this seems to have the fewest side-effects.

As for my diet, I don't low or high anything tbh, as my signature says, everything in moderation, on average I eat around 180g of carbs a day (sometimes a little more on a weekend).
you have to be happy with your bloods
it sounds like your 180g carb is below your body's trigger point to lay down fat, some people dont even have a trigger point and can eat 400-500g of carbs and be skinny.
some people will lay down fat at 60g a day

I think I will continue on a low dose statin, even when my trigs are good because of the vascular benefit
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
another reason why he didn't want me to take a statin, after speaking with th If and when the time comes I'd happily take a statin,

What would be the reason to go on a statin @noblehead?

My LDL were in the 70s and HDLs in 80s. When I had diabetes my HDL went to 109 and HDL stayed the same. They put me on a statin.

All my brothers and 85-year old father ( who had a heart attack at 52 ) are on them. I sorta think I need to can't really get the handle on what is best from all the reading
 

dannyw

BANNED
Messages
430
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
WellI I would take that "study" with a huge pinch of salt and I would like to ask those who think that dietary fat does not increase the fat in your blood (cholesterol) to answer me why is it that we are asked to fast for a lipid profile?

Of course I already know the answer to my question as its because it takes 8 hours or so for the fat you eat to completely leave your blood stream so if you dont fast before a lipid profile blood test it skews the results and shows you have moor fat/cholesterol in your blood as a base level than is the case.

At this point I would happily admit that I havent read and have no interest in reading the linked study but the way the thread title is worded is surely incorrect, as as far as I am aware any dietary fat will increase the fat/cholesterol in your blood stream.
To comment on a study you can't even be bothered to read shows very poor forum taste. Perhaps you should avoid these types of threads in future if they cause such irritation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
you have to be happy with your bloods
it sounds like your 180g carb is below your body's trigger point to lay down fat, some people dont even have a trigger point and can eat 400-500g of carbs and be skinny.
some people will lay down fat at 60g a day

I think I will continue on a low dose statin, even when my trigs are good because of the vascular benefit
@ Jack I like the trigger point range it helps explain a lot of different observations.

The vascular benefits of statins I believe from my family history but I've read that unless you have a specific genotype there is no benefit, what's your thouhgts
 

noblehead

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
23,618
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
Disrespectful people
you have to be happy with your bloods
it sounds like your 180g carb is below your body's trigger point to lay down fat, some people dont even have a trigger point and can eat 400-500g of carbs and be skinny.
some people will lay down fat at 60g a day

I think I will continue on a low dose statin, even when my trigs are good because of the vascular benefit

Yes possibly that true. TBH it's not a subject that I try and get involved in too much as the subject of cholesterol is a minefield, I think if your results are fine then there's no reason to change things, my current Endo thinks that the fact that I exercise daily ( just mainly walking the dog for 60-90 mins) helps to keep my cholesterol levels under control.

btw, I don't blame you for keeping on the statin, which one do you take Jack?
 

noblehead

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
23,618
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
Disrespectful people
What would be the reason to go on a statin @noblehead?

My LDL were in the 70s and HDLs in 80s. When I had diabetes my HDL went to 109 and HDL stayed the same. They put me on a statin.

All my brothers and 85-year old father ( who had a heart attack at 52 ) are on them. I sorta think I need to can't really get the handle on what is best from all the reading


One would be family history of CVD as in your fathers case, for most people its to reduce cholesterol levels, providing your not suffering any side-effects I wouldn't stop taking them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
@ Jack I like the trigger point range it helps explain a lot of different observations.

The vascular benefits of statins I believe from my family history but I've read that unless you have a specific genotype there is no benefit, what's your thouhgts
******, I didn't know that. back to the books, aka google
yes insulin resistance varies, and they say it's for life, so someone high IR and obese, and say triggers at 100g, goes on a 50g keto diet and looses a stack of weight, afterwards, they will keep the weight off as long as they stay under their 100g forever, 150g and they will be fat again
Yes possibly that true. TBH it's not a subject that I try and get involved in too much as the subject of cholesterol is a minefield, I think if your results are fine then there's no reason to change things, my current Endo thinks that the fact that I exercise daily ( just mainly walking the dog for 60-90 mins) helps to keep my cholesterol levels under control.

btw, I don't blame you for keeping on the statin, which one do you take Jack?
I took 10mg rosuvastatin after 3 mths TC was 2.7 and my ldl is under 1, a silly small number,
I've cut it back to 5 mg now, I need my trig lower and hdl and ldl higher ..I will see what has happened in the last 6 mths on lchf, I've lost another 5kg..so fingers crossed
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people

Dillinger

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,207
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Celery.
I'm getting my test results this week, they started over 2 and were last 1.2 ish ..I'm hoping for under 1 and eventually join the 0.6 mob, either that or I'm putting you both on ignore so I don't have to be reminded of my high trigs :)

Since low-carbing I've never had triglycerides over 1.0 - they are normally about 0.7.

My consultant, who is a very nice man, but wholly convinced by the current dietary guidelines for diabetes (to the extent that he has to 'forget' that I'm on a low-carb diet when discussing my diabetes) said that my blood lipids showed that my diet 'was perfect' but he still wanted to give me a statin. Now, according to him I should be on a low-fat multi-grain type of diet which I am not and which I flag up to him every time I see him. It's cognitive dissonance really.

Best

Dillinger
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 people

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Since low-carbing I've never had triglycerides over 1.0 - they are normally about 0.7.

My consultant, who is a very nice man, but wholly convinced by the current dietary guidelines for diabetes (to the extent that he has to 'forget' that I'm on a low-carb diet when discussing my diabetes) said that my blood lipids showed that my diet 'was perfect' but he still wanted to give me a statin. Now, according to him I should be on a low-fat multi-grain type of diet which I am not and which I flag up to him every time I see him. It's cognitive dissonance really.

Best

Dillinger
I'm expecting trigs to be under one and will be disappointed if they aren't,
lowfat multigrain is the bestest and it's the patients fault they have diabetes, they're lazy and eat too much :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Since low-carbing I've never had triglycerides over 1.0 - they are normally about 0.7.

My consultant, who is a very nice man, but wholly convinced by the current dietary guidelines for diabetes (to the extent that he has to 'forget' that I'm on a low-carb diet when discussing my diabetes) said that my blood lipids showed that my diet 'was perfect' but he still wanted to give me a statin. Now, according to him I should be on a low-fat multi-grain type of diet which I am not and which I flag up to him every time I see him. It's cognitive dissonance really.

Best

Dillinger

I totally understand WHY this happens, but heck, it is madness, MADNESS, I say!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 people

bookmite

Well-Known Member
Messages
222
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
When the British medical council announces this glaring fact, is when the theory will be accepted. We have had at least 3 generations of being told the opposite, so I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

BUT...I'm sure all of us with heart issues must have wondered....what if....what if I'm wrong :p and we are long term exacerbating the issues.

Just a thought :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

noblehead

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
23,618
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
Disrespectful people
I took 10mg rosuvastatin after 3 mths TC was 2.7 and my ldl is under 1, a silly small number,
I've cut it back to 5 mg now, I need my trig lower and hdl and ldl higher ..I will see what has happened in the last 6 mths on lchf, I've lost another 5kg..so fingers crossed


Sensible to keep on a low dose Jack if you don't suffer side-effects and believe it is doing you some good in the long-term, good luck with your next set of results.
 

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Sensible to keep on a low dose Jack if you don't suffer side-effects and believe it is doing you some good in the long-term, good luck with your next set of results.
I think I'm the only one on the forum that wants their LDL higher :)
 

Dillinger

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,207
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Celery.
their LDL can go up or down ..it's 50/50, but it's the number of particles that is important, not the estimated mass that the UK blood test indicates, low trig=good ldl particles
but trigs are down and hdl up
View attachment 8392
cholesterol



Jack - thank you so much for those videos; the Volek one is completely on point for me; I've just had another badgering by my consultant to go on statins and I am having to carefully think about the situation; so this video is very helpful.

Best

Dillinger
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Jack - thank you so much for those videos; the Volek one is completely on point for me; I've just had another badgering by my consultant to go on statins and I am having to carefully think about the situation; so this video is very helpful.

Best

Dillinger
don't thank me..I'd take a very low dose :)
https://www.google.com.au/#q=statin microvascular inflammation

http://cpr.sagepub.com/content/21/4/464.full.pdf

Results: Among 14 primary prevention trials (46,262 participants),

statin therapy increased diabetes by absolute risk of 0.5% (95% CI 0.1–1%, p¼0.012),

meanwhile reducing death by a similar extent: 0.5% (0.9 to 0.2%, p¼0.003).

In the 15 secondary prevention RCTs (37,618 participants), statins decreased death by 1.4% (2.1 to 0.7%, p<0.001).

There were no other statin-attributable symptoms,

although asymptomatic liver transaminase elevation was 0.4% more frequent with statins across all trials. Serious adverse events and withdrawals were similar in both arms.


Conclusions:

Only a small minority of symptoms reported on statins are genuinely due to the statins:


almost all would occur just as frequently on placebo.


Only development of new-onset diabetes mellitus was significantly higher on statins than placebo; nevertheless only 1 in 5 of new cases were actually caused by statins. Higher statin doses produce a detectable effect, but even still the proportion attributable to statins is variable: for asymptomatic liver enzyme elevation, the majority are attributable to the higher dose; in contrast for muscle aches, the majority are not.


this study looked at the history of 60,000 Diabetics after av. 2.7

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(14)70173-1/abstract

retinopathy HR=0.6 [decrease of risk]

neuropathy HR=0.66

gangrene of the foot HR=0.88

diabetic nephropathy HR=0.97

[neutral..........HR=1.0 ]

diabetes HR=1·17 [increase of risk]



the way I look at it ..if nothing else take statin for neuropathy, retinopathy and gangrene of the foot
 

phoenix

Expert
Messages
5,671
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
..@jack412
The APO genes that are involved in the production of the protein bit of the lipoprotein
These genes have various common variants .

APO E is one that is most often mentioned, The 3 common variants code for different amino acid at two places so the final protein has slightly different properties.
E3 is the most common allele , E2 and E4 the others
Since you have 2 chromosomes (one from each parent ,you can have 6 genotypes .
E2/E2, E3/E3, E4/E4
E2/E3, E2/E4 or E4/E3
These particular two alleles said to be 'co dominant ' or perhaps blending ie they interact together so the amount of the protein produced is dependent upon on the particular combination you have
I won't go into detail of why but E2 and E4 have opposing effects, E2 leads to a decreased in cholesterol and increase in trigs. E3 is normal and leads to 'normal' cholesterol levels, E4 leads to higher total cholesterol, ldl and trigs.
People with some combinations of alleles may have more propensity to higher levels of total cholesterol., LDL or Trigs Some trials suggest that E4 carriers have a higher susceptibility to saturated fat..
This is what the European Epic trial found for the levels of cholesterol in the different genotypes
apoe epic.JPG
.The epic trial (around 22,000 subjects using diet diaries). Unlike other trials** they didn't find, in general, that different phenotypes responded very differently to increasing sat fat or fibre or un sat fat, (ie all phenotypes had higher levels with increased sat fat and lower with increased fibre and un sat fat) .
However these effects of diet were doubled in those with the E2/E4 combination but people with this genotype constituted only 3% of the population (so may still be due to chance, research with even bigger groups needed! )
The alleles are present in different proportions in the population depending on ethnicity.
chart here: http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php
**.Lots of detail https://www.lipidcenter.com/pdf/Apo_Ev2.pdf
there are other genes though
APO C2 inherited mutations associated with high trigs. This is recessive ie problems arise when you are homozygous inheriting a mutation from both parents. (one could have been a sufferer and the other a carrier(heterozygous) or both could have been carriers )
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOC2
APO B (mutations in this one may cause familial hypercholesterolemia; ie a condition that can result in really high cholesterol and heart attacks even in childhood) It may be that some common variants (as distinct from mutations) are associated with higher than normal cholesterol and heart disease
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people

dannyw

BANNED
Messages
430
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
..@jack412
The APO genes that are involved in the production of the protein bit of the lipoprotein
These genes have various common variants .

APO E is one that is most often mentioned, The 3 common variants code for different amino acid at two places so the final protein has slightly different properties.
E3 is the most common allele , E2 and E4 the others
Since you have 2 chromosomes (one from each parent ,you can have 6 genotypes .
E2/E2, E3/E3, E4/E4
E2/E3, E2/E4 or E4/E3
These particular two alleles said to be 'co dominant ' or perhaps blending ie they interact together so the amount of the protein produced is dependent upon on the particular combination you have
I won't go into detail of why but E2 and E4 have opposing effects, E2 leads to a decreased in cholesterol and increase in trigs. E3 is normal and leads to 'normal' cholesterol levels, E4 leads to higher total cholesterol, ldl and trigs.
People with some combinations of alleles may have more propensity to higher levels of total cholesterol., LDL or Trigs Some trials suggest that E4 carriers have a higher susceptibility to saturated fat..
This is what the European Epic trial found for the levels of cholesterol in the different genotypes
View attachment 8404
.The epic trial (around 22,000 subjects using diet diaries). Unlike other trials** they didn't find, in general, that different phenotypes responded very differently to increasing sat fat or fibre or un sat fat, (ie all phenotypes had higher levels with increased sat fat and lower with increased fibre and un sat fat) .
However these effects of diet were doubled in those with the E2/E4 combination but people with this genotype constituted only 3% of the population (so may still be due to chance, research with even bigger groups needed! )
The alleles are present in different proportions in the population depending on ethnicity.
chart here: http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php
**.Lots of detail https://www.lipidcenter.com/pdf/Apo_Ev2.pdf
there are other genes though
APO C2 inherited mutations associated with high trigs. This is recessive ie problems arise when you are homozygous inheriting a mutation from both parents. (one could have been a sufferer and the other a carrier(heterozygous) or both could have been carriers )
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOC2
APO B (mutations in this one may cause familial hypercholesterolemia; ie a condition that can result in really high cholesterol and heart attacks even in childhood) It may be that some common variants (as distinct from mutations) are associated with higher than normal cholesterol and heart disease
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOB
I love it when you say "I won't go into detail" lol !!!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 people

jack412

Expert
Messages
5,618
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
..@jack412
The APO genes that are involved in the production of the protein bit of the lipoprotein
These genes have various common variants .

APO E is one that is most often mentioned, The 3 common variants code for different amino acid at two places so the final protein has slightly different properties.
E3 is the most common allele , E2 and E4 the others
Since you have 2 chromosomes (one from each parent ,you can have 6 genotypes .
E2/E2, E3/E3, E4/E4
E2/E3, E2/E4 or E4/E3
These particular two alleles said to be 'co dominant ' or perhaps blending ie they interact together so the amount of the protein produced is dependent upon on the particular combination you have
I won't go into detail of why but E2 and E4 have opposing effects, E2 leads to a decreased in cholesterol and increase in trigs. E3 is normal and leads to 'normal' cholesterol levels, E4 leads to higher total cholesterol, ldl and trigs.
People with some combinations of alleles may have more propensity to higher levels of total cholesterol., LDL or Trigs Some trials suggest that E4 carriers have a higher susceptibility to saturated fat..
This is what the European Epic trial found for the levels of cholesterol in the different genotypes
View attachment 8404
.The epic trial (around 22,000 subjects using diet diaries). Unlike other trials** they didn't find, in general, that different phenotypes responded very differently to increasing sat fat or fibre or un sat fat, (ie all phenotypes had higher levels with increased sat fat and lower with increased fibre and un sat fat) .
However these effects of diet were doubled in those with the E2/E4 combination but people with this genotype constituted only 3% of the population (so may still be due to chance, research with even bigger groups needed! )
The alleles are present in different proportions in the population depending on ethnicity.
chart here: http://www.gbhealthwatch.com/GND-High-Cholesterol-APOE.php
**.Lots of detail https://www.lipidcenter.com/pdf/Apo_Ev2.pdf
there are other genes though
APO C2 inherited mutations associated with high trigs. This is recessive ie problems arise when you are homozygous inheriting a mutation from both parents. (one could have been a sufferer and the other a carrier(heterozygous) or both could have been carriers )
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOC2
APO B (mutations in this one may cause familial hypercholesterolemia; ie a condition that can result in really high cholesterol and heart attacks even in childhood) It may be that some common variants (as distinct from mutations) are associated with higher than normal cholesterol and heart disease
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/APOB
Thank you. It's lucky you had a picture for me :)
at a guess, I'm e2 e2
apoe-epic-jpg.8404

thank god we all eat 50-55% carb, that makes it easy
upload_2014-11-25_10-31-9.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:

phoenix

Expert
Messages
5,671
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
@jack412, I meant to say don't look at the diet bit at the end of that article, I think I must have edited it out. That one was just for the ethnic distribution of the alleles. The long article does have some evidenced based diet/lifestyle comments at the end.
You can't though tell what you are without having your DNA tested and unfortunately that costs (123andme isn't too expensive for the testing but the postage charges from Europe are horrendous and I suspect it's even more from Australia)