T2 diabetes and weight loss (Newcastle diet) can you help answer my question/s.

[Richard.l]

Hi all just a quick background i was diagnosed t2 in April 2014 having turned 40 in the previous August and at a weight of 16 stone 4lbs @ 6ft tall. I have also worked night shift for at least 6yrs prior to this and diabetes is in my family i would also in summer lift my protien levels lower my carbs and exercise removing weight gained in winter quite a few possibilities there to cause. So not been the type to sit and dwell i lost over the next couple of months three stone and have steered away from medication through life style changes. I have been intrigued with the Newcastle diet and the possibility of reversal. I have not been under 13 stone since being 16 yrs old when i was in the gym 4 times a week so i embarked on loosing more weight and have been doing calorie restriction not been able to work with 800 cals a day i worked on roughly 1200cals with one meal replacement shake and non starchy veg and salmon with a small salad and apple at work. The weight has been steadily falling i hung at 12 stone 4lbs so i decided to raise the bar and go for 2 meal replacements keeping the non starchy veg and salmon. The weight has been steadily falling again, The Question Is at what point would reversal be noticed??. I am thinking 11 stone which would be tiny for my frame but would remove all the stubborn fat, i am 30 inch waist now, The other confusing thing is i have just done really high dose sugar/glucose test solid not liquid and with my meter the readings were @30mins 11.1mmol/L then @1hr 13mmol/L then did 10 mins exercise 2 sets of 30 press ups and 2 sets of 30 arm curls and tested and was 6.1 mmol/L so reaction to small amount of exercise was quite substantial tested at 2 hr point reading of 6.3mmol/L, The question is if anybody can help is as i am thinking my diabetes is genetic and not weight induced but at what point of weight loss is the point at which i can say its one or the other??? and such a small amount of exercise had such massive results??? or did i overload my system too quickly not being used to direct sugar/glucose for 10 months. Anybody with any answers welcome.

 

[Mike d]

Question from me ... why did you do that sugar test? Just to see how high you'd go?

I drop big time (2 or 3 mmol sometimes) if I exercise post a high reading but your drop is massive.

Mike

 

[Richard.l]

Hi Mike intrigued as to what reading would be not directly had sugar/glucose for 10 months so was seeing if body could handle, Drop was massive for small amount of exercise which adds more questions.

 

[Mike d]

Hi Richard

I guess it does but even though it was 10 minutes, it sounded like an INTENSE 10 minutes. I can almost understand that if you've not been consuming sugars for so long, maybe the spike was always going to be brief and your body quickly responded well to the exercise to put you back to normal numbers. That's just a guess but nonetheless, it might explain a few things given your fitness regime, your diet, age etc etc.

In any event, you might want to do it again (probably with a smaller sugar portion) and see if you get similar results

Mike

 

[Richard.l]

Hi mike might try a liquid although what i used was formed with corn starch sugar/glucose so was fast acting but solid, given my current low cal diet this was on a pretty empty stomach so nothing to slow it down. Exercise was purely thrown in to see if the spike could be killed, think i should see if body without the exercise can bring it down maybe as you say consume less. makes things not quiet as black and white as you think though.

 

[Mike d]

Hi mike might try a liquid although what i used was formed with corn starch sugar/glucose so was fast acting but solid, given my current low cal diet this was on a pretty empty stomach so nothing to slow it down. Exercise was purely thrown in to see if the spike could be killed, think i should see if body without the exercise can bring it down maybe as you say consume less. makes things not quiet as black and white as you think though.

VERY good idea re no exercise and a lower trial. I'd be betting you stay around your (albeit hopefully lower) spike level but for a lot longer.

We're going from the ridiculous to the sublime (as they say in the classics) with what you're gonna try here, but hey, you're the guinea pig

In effect, Test 1 gave you your figures. Test 2 is the other extreme .... more or less given there'll be no exercise and reduced sugars

Test 3 should be the original sugar load and no exercise, but no way on earth would I suggest you do that. I for one, will be very interested in what test 2 shows up. You'll never be able to mark it down as fact for any future tests but you'll have some numbers which might well give you a rough guide. Mike

 

[Brunneria]

Hi, I know very little about the Newcastle Diet, but I do know that the Professor who set up the study believes that one key factor is the length of time you have been diabetic.

The shorter time between diagnosis and starting the diet was considered to be key.
I believe all the candidates were 4 years or less since diagnosis.

You've been diagnosed 10 years, so I would check that out, before embarking on it.

 

[cold ethyl]

I believe they have had some success amongst those diagnosed for longer, but best chance of reversal was seen up to 6 yrs.

 

[AndBreathe]

Hi all just a quick background i was diagnosed t2 in April 2004 having turned 40 in the previous August and at a weight of 16 stone 4lbs @ 6ft tall. I have also worked night shift for at least 6yrs prior to this and diabetes is in my family i would also in summer lift my protien levels lower my carbs and exercise removing weight gained in winter quite a few possibilities there to cause. So not been the type to sit and dwell i lost over the next couple of months three stone and have steered away from medication through life style changes. I have been intrigued with the Newcastle diet and the possibility of reversal. I have not been under 13 stone since being 16 yrs old when i was in the gym 4 times a week so i embarked on loosing more weight and have been doing calorie restriction not been able to work with 800 cals a day i worked on roughly 1200cals with one meal replacement shake and non starchy veg and salmon with a small salad and apple at work. The weight has been steadily falling i hung at 12 stone 4lbs so i decided to raise the bar and go for 2 meal replacements keeping the non starchy veg and salmon. The weight has been steadily falling again, The Question Is at what point would reversal be noticed??. I am thinking 11 stone which would be tiny for my frame but would remove all the stubborn fat, i am 30 inch waist now, The other confusing thing is i have just done really high dose sugar/glucose test solid not liquid and with my meter the readings were @30mins 11.1mmol/L then @1hr 13mmol/L then did 10 mins exercise 2 sets of 30 press ups and 2 sets of 30 arm curls and tested and was 6.1 mmol/L so reaction to small amount of exercise was quite substantial tested at 2 hr point reading of 6.3mmol/L, The question is if anybody can help is as i am thinking my diabetes is genetic and not weight induced but at what point of weight loss is the point at which i can say its one or the other??? and such a small amount of exercise had such massive results??? or did i overload my system too quickly not being used to direct sugar/glucose for 10 months. Anybody with any answers welcome.

Apologies as I have only scan read your post (I'm juggling general organisational duties today).

My experience in reintroducing carbs to my diet is if we have been avoiding them fairly seriously for a period, our bodies get out of the habit of producing the correct concoction of digestive enzymes immediately on demand. Effectively, we can suffer from what I have self-named enzyme lag. Our digestions effectively "prime" our systems to expect pretty much what we ate on any given yesterday, so if that was a low carb day, your system won't have been expecting the load. Indeed, that is why I believe before any Oral Glucose Tolerance Test (OGTT), patients are advised to consume something like 130g carbs for three days, in order to prepare their bodies for the carb onslaught.

One of our posters, @Andrew Colvin created a thread some time ago, mapping out his reintroduction of carbs. It could make very interesting reading for you. The link is below.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/moving-from-low-carb-to-higher-levels.58491/#post-545693

Let us know how you get along.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. First keep up the diet but focus on carb reduction rahther than the ND calorie reduction. Yes, being insulin resistant longer term thru excess weight can cause the islet cells to start failing which may not be reversible. There is always the possibility of being more T1 rather than T2 in which case you can't reverse it. I have a 30" waist and know that is thin so if your BS doesn't come down at your current weight and low-carb diet then discuss the possibility of T1 with the GP. Treatment is similar to T2 i.e. tablets but would need insulin in the longer-term.

 

[Richard.l]

sorry guys just noticed typo was diagnosed 2014 not 2004 ooopps.

 

[Richard.l]

Apologies as I have only scan read your post (I'm juggling general organisational duties today).

My experience in reintroducing carbs to my diet is if we have been avoiding them fairly seriously for a period, our bodies get out of the habit of producing the correct concoction of digestive enzymes immediately on demand. Effectively, we can suffer from what I have self-named enzyme lag. Our digestions effectively "prime" our systems to expect pretty much what we ate on any given yesterday, so if that was a low carb day, your system won't have been expecting the load. Indeed, that is why I believe before any Oral Glucose Tolerance Test (OGTT), patients are advised to consume something like 130g carbs for three days, in order to prepare their bodies for the carb onslaught.

One of our posters, @Andrew Colvin created a thread some time ago, mapping out his reintroduction of carbs. It could make very interesting reading for you. The link is below.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/moving-from-low-carb-to-higher-levels.58491/#post-545693

Let us know how you get along.

Thanks this is somewhat what i was thinking did go for overkill, have not spiked since was diagnosed so body is out of habit of handling a high sugar/glucose load , would also explain the ability to drop the spike easily with small amount physical activity. will read the posts thanks.

 

[Richard.l]

Hi, I know very little about the Newcastle Diet, but I do know that the Professor who set up the study believes that one key factor is the length of time you have been diabetic.

The shorter time between diagnosis and starting the diet was considered to be key.
I believe all the candidates were 4 years or less since diagnosis.

You've been diagnosed 10 years, so I would check that out, before embarking on it.

Thanks Brunneria made a typo error diagnosed 2014 not 2004 oooops.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks Brunneria made a typo error diagnosed 2014 not 2004 oooops.

Aha! Makes sense now.

 

[andcol]

Hi @Richard.l just read your post with interest. When I did my very low calorie diet stage my fasting levels came down to normal within a month (can't tell you when as I wasnt testing until the month point). My other numbers were more varied until I got to about 15% weight loss. At this poit the variance in meter reading reduced substantially. Interestingly my blood pressure took a step change downwards.

Since then I have continued to lose more weight until about 4 months ago at which time I started a weight maintenance stage. As @AndBreathe pointed out I did this by slowly introducing more carbs back into my diet. I normally see a rise to 8.3 on my meter at a peak and then come down but if I over do it I can see rises in to the 10s for a very short amount of time. Never seen an 11 since this stage.

I have written many times in many posts that for me I can do 10 mins of not too vigorous exercise and drop many mmol/l in blood glucose levels. I will go back up if I am still digesting food but it is a good way to flatten those highs if/when you do have a spike. I think people with a lot of insulin resistance do not see such a rapid benefit from the exercise so you may well have shaken it off. BTW I am also able to drive myself down (with exercise) into the 3's but this lasts only a few minutes before I bounce up to 5 showing my liver is functioning correctly.

PS I am a 32 inch waist so you are thinner than me now

 

[Richard.l]

Hi @Richard.l just read your post with interest. When I did my very low calorie diet stage my fasting levels came down to normal within a month (can't tell you when as I wasnt testing until the month point). My other numbers were more varied until I got to about 15% weight loss. At this poit the variance in meter reading reduced substantially. Interestingly my blood pressure took a step change downwards.

Since then I have continued to lose more weight until about 4 months ago at which time I started a weight maintenance stage. As @AndBreathe pointed out I did this by slowly introducing more carbs back into my diet. I normally see a rise to 8.3 on my meter at a peak and then come down but if I over do it I can see rises in to the 10s for a very short amount of time. Never seen an 11 since this stage.

I have written many times in many posts that for me I can do 10 mins of not too vigorous exercise and drop many mmol/l in blood glucose levels. I will go back up if I am still digesting food but it is a good way to flatten those highs if/when you do have a spike. I think people with a lot of insulin resistance do not see such a rapid benefit from the exercise so you may well have shaken it off. BTW I am also able to drive myself down (with exercise) into the 3's but this lasts only a few minutes before I bounce up to 5 showing my liver is functioning correctly.

PS I am a 32 inch waist so you are thinner than me now

Thanks Andrew looks like i need to look at the introduction of carb stage my carbs at moment are extremely low so jumped in feet first with the sugar test, all my reading fasting in 4s and post meal are within normal range even before this calorie restriction as was strict with food/carbs, i regularly drop into 3s especially when working nights usually before 12 midnight break, but was told this was okay (not on meds), and a non diabetics can drop the same. I did figure that calorie restriction would remove as much excess body fat as possible to be sure if or not i could reverse, as i researched fat on liver also plays a big role in diabetes. So to be totally certain i was dropping as much weight as possible, my blood pressure dropped relatively quick early in my diagnosis had the 24 hr test/monitor within my first 3stone weight loss came back good. And had 2nd liver test June/July2014 as doc said 1st results might be due to some effect of previous xmas splurge. Nurse never called me back so this one must have been okay. The question for me is should i introduce carbs now and see or go the whole hog and reach my supposed ideal weight then try, cant find any given on what point to test ???.

Ps i have no clothes that fit anymore except shoes lol.

 

[andcol]

ahh even my shoes got too big; been through 3 sets of cloths. When you introduce carbs you will find it much harder to lose weight so introduce just a little on top of what you currently are eating and then a little more until thee weight lose stops and then decrease it so that you get a small weight lose level.

 

[Richard.l]

We're going from the ridiculous to the sublime (as they say in the classics) with what you're gonna try here, but hey, you're the guinea pig

In effect, Test 1 gave you your figures. Test 2 is the other extreme .... more or less given there'll be no exercise and reduced sugars

Test 3 should be the original sugar load and no exercise, but no way on earth would I suggest you do that. I for one, will be very interested in what test 2 shows up. You'll never be able to mark it down as fact for any future tests but you'll have some numbers which might well give you a rough guide. Mike [/QUOTE]


Hi mike tried the test on a 1/3 of the original portion no exercise empty stomach, results were quite amazing results came in 30 mins 6.3mmol/L 1hr 8.2mmol/L 1hr 40mins 6.0mmol/L 2hr 5.3mmol/L not sure i want to try original amount again but are very intrigued.