Diabetes and High Cholesterol - How to manage the two

[memememeiii]

I have had high cholesterol longer than diabetes, and I wonder how you all have made decisions re. diet to manage the two. I'm on the Newcastle Diet now, have lost 22 lbs in 14 days, and stalled ... now at Day 18 of diet. But persisting. I feel confused about the protein/meat question post diet - as I wonder if I eat a high protein/meat diet (incl. steak), etc. ... if it will spike my cholesterol. I know the forum is about diabetes, but I have read loads to know that while you may tackle diabetes with a high protein diet, it is a controvertial thing re. the consumption of meat. I was vegetarian in my twenties for 9 years, and had the best cholesterol levels ever. I'm now 47. I don't know that I could regain that. Maybe. I now eat meat and like it, and don't really know which way to go with this now - return to vegetarianism for health, or go with a Paleo type diet, etc. Zone. Whatever. Something to get through another six months of weight loss until I hit my goal. I'm now 208 lbs and aiming to get to 130, which is all within my normal BMI.

I wonder about the impact on cholesterol. Advice/ideas/thoughts/research re. the link would be appreciated.

Thanks,
MM.

 

[Mike d]

I know people who are as thin as a rake and super fit and have hi cholesterol. My figures were not good when first diagnosed ... and in 3 months after weight loss and diet control and exercise they were perfect.

It is a very contentious issue. Eggs bad / eggs good, good fats OK / not OK. The list is endless.

What are your figures and are you on meds for it?

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

I know people who are as thin as a rake and super fit and have hi cholesterol. My figures were not good when first diagnosed ... and in 3 months after weight loss and diet control and exercise they were perfect.

It is a very contentious issue. Eggs bad / eggs good, good fats OK / not OK. The list is endless.

What are your figures and are you on meds for it?

I agree about not worrying about cholesterol. I haven't heard about a high protein diet for diabetes. An LCHF diet should reverse/reduce all the metabolic disease symptoms.

 

[graj0]

I have had high cholesterol longer than diabetes, and I wonder how you all have made decisions re. diet to manage the two. I'm on the Newcastle Diet now, have lost 22 lbs in 14 days, and stalled ... now at Day 18 of diet. But persisting. I feel confused about the protein/meat question post diet - as I wonder if I eat a high protein/meat diet (incl. steak), etc. ... if it will spike my cholesterol. I know the forum is about diabetes, but I have read loads to know that while you may tackle diabetes with a high protein diet, it is a controvertial thing re. the consumption of meat. I was vegetarian in my twenties for 9 years, and had the best cholesterol levels ever. I'm now 47. I don't know that I could regain that. Maybe. I now eat meat and like it, and don't really know which way to go with this now - return to vegetarianism for health, or go with a Paleo type diet, etc. Zone. Whatever. Something to get through another six months of weight loss until I hit my goal. I'm now 208 lbs and aiming to get to 130, which is all within my normal BMI.

I wonder about the impact on cholesterol. Advice/ideas/thoughts/research re. the link would be appreciated.

Thanks,
MM.

When you say high cholesterol, how high? Well done if you've stuck to the Newcastle Diet for 14 days, I expect you know that a lot of weight lost in the early days is water but 22lbs is very good well done. I wouldn't worry about "stalling", that happens to everybody, trust me, I've followed a sensible diet regime, one that I've monitored, for 8 years. I don't think cholesterol "spikes" in the same way that Blood Glucose does, do you have a meter to check it? Look at:-
http://www.valuemed.co.uk/acatalog/...mfWDnmqXZGtrFI0IQAbzrLHoiaxjFmiPTWBoCWPzw_wcB
for a 3 in 1 meter (checks for cholesterol, BG and anemia), I'm not sure how accurate or how good, but £40 seems a low price for a 3 in 1, some of the cholesterol only meters are nearer £100.
From what I've read about the Newcastle Diet, you will have virtually removed all carbs from your diet anyway, this will do wonders for your BG AND cholesterol numbers. Lowering carbs has more of an effect on cholesterol than lowering fats (eg in meat).
I can only add that removing bread/potatoes/pasta/rice from my diet enabled me to ditch Gliclazide, Januvia (diabetes) and Atorvastatin (cholesterol).

 

[AndBreathe]

This video is absolutely fabulous for explaining lots about our lipids. Professor Sikaris is a low-carber, so he puts some of his presentation into that context. At 27 minutes long, it seems like it could be a drag, but it is so worth the watch:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9BFRi-nH1v8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[graj0]

It is a very contentious issue. Eggs bad / eggs good, good fats OK / not OK. The list is endless.

The eggs might not be so contentious as it is generally accepted that what we eat does not affect our total cholesterol levels, the less we eat, the more our body produces, the more we eat, the less our body produces. Basically it's because our body needs cholesterol.

As for eggs, the University of Surrey has done research on this fantastic food source. They had a group of students eat at least two eggs a day for 12 weeks, and another group eating no eggs, they also put them on a diet recommended by the BHF. They actually recorded no change or even a drop in total cholesterol for both groups. Even Ancel Keys, the perpetrator of the "fat is bad for you brigade" had this to say about cholesterol.

“There’s no connection whatsoever between the cholesterol in food and cholesterol in the blood. And we’ve known that all along. Cholesterol in the diet doesn’t matter at all unless you happen to be a chicken or a rabbit.”

Some of the early research into fat and cholesterol was actually done on chickens and rabbits, hence him mentioning them. Trouble being that the human being's body works differently to chickens and rabbits, so they weren't a good example for them to start with, their initial research was somewhat flawed, big time.

I try to check all my sources and look to see that the stuff I'm quoting can be cross referenced with multiple sources.

 

[Mike d]

Yep, agreed .... and no, I'll avoid (yet) another separate discussion about statins. From where I sit, your BS are far more important and with that, exercise, diet and general level of fitness. In other words, I think they're tied to some degree and if you score well on your sugars, by default, so you should with your cholesterol. Could be wrong but that's my 2 cents

 

[AndBreathe]

The eggs might not be so contentious as it is generally accepted that what we eat does not affect our total cholesterol levels, the less we eat, the more our body produces, the more we eat, the less our body produces. Basically it's because our body needs cholesterol.

As for eggs, the University of Surrey has done research on this fantastic food source. They had a group of students eat at least two eggs a day for 12 weeks, and another group eating no eggs, they also put them on a diet recommended by the BHF. They actually recorded no change or even a drop in total cholesterol for both groups. Even Ancel Keys, the perpetrator of the "fat is bad for you brigade" had this to say about cholesterol.

“There’s no connection whatsoever between the cholesterol in food and cholesterol in the blood. And we’ve known that all along. Cholesterol in the diet doesn’t matter at all unless you happen to be a chicken or a rabbit.”

Some of the early research into fat and cholesterol was actually done on chickens and rabbits, hence him mentioning them. Trouble being that the human being's body works differently to chickens and rabbits, so they weren't a good example for them to start with, their initial research was somewhat flawed, big time.

I try to check all my sources and look to see that the stuff I'm quoting can be cross referenced with multiple sources.

graj0 - Have you watched Professor Sikaris's presentation. His comments on cholesterol, were of particular interest to me, as my Total and LDL levels are well over optimal. Once I understood the impact of reduced carb, coupled with excellent Trigs I felt much happier.

I'll still go and see the consultant at the Lipid Clinic, when I'm back in UK, as my GP now reckons my levels are wholly endogenous, but I'd still need some persuading before I'd consider statins.

I feel like a bit of an evangelist or a groupie to this guy, but his presentation really provided a couple of lightbulb moments for me.

 

[AndBreathe]

Yep, agreed .... and no, I'll avoid (yet) another separate discussion about statins. From where I sit, your BS are far more important and with that, exercise, diet and general level of fitness. In other words, I think they're tied to some degree and if you score well on your sugars, by default, so you should with your cholesterol. Could be wrong but that's my 2 cents

I'm one of those people who will almost always swim against the tide!! Initially my cholesterol moderated along with my bloods, but my Total and LDL have risen again. I must say I'm agreeing somewhat with my GP that my endogenous levels are elevated, but she doesn't understand the impact of Trigs and particle sizes of the LDL, but I left her with some study materials.

Now I have a better understanding of the detailed breakdown, I'm far more relaxed about it all than she is.

She'll catch on, in due course.

 

[AndBreathe]

I think you have to make a couple of decisions.

Are you happy with your cholesterol levels?
Do you want to change them?

Many feel the diet they are on is correct, and the cholesterol levels they naturally achieve on that diet are correct for them.
Some also take statins, some don't, which again is a very personal choice.

I tended to sway towards looking for the most 'advised' levels first, including those from the NHS, and those opposed to the NHS levels, then get my bloods tested reguarly, and adjust my diet to alter the cholesterol level to achieve the target.

The diet I eat now, plus a minimal dose of 20mg Atorvastation gives my the target I'm aiming for.
It's healthy enough for me as well.

If I go off the diet, for example as I did over my summer holiday, while my BG was ok, I had my doctors appointment the day after I came back.
HbA1c was fine, all cholesterol had gone the wrong way.
But within 3 months it was all back where I wanted it to be, by getting back into my routine.

I deliberately haven't put up my numbers, or any links, as there are a million studies on the internet, all saying their studies are correct, how to change your own figures, how (and why) not to, why you don't, or do need to, and a thousand other things.

Really, once you answer the two questions as the top, if you do want to alter them, set your target first, try a diet for three months, see what effect if has on you, then adjust it either way.
To me the alternative, of finding out your levels, and researching to see how they are considered to be, was more confusing, as you will always find reports and studies claiming they are both good, and bad.

Douglas, what, specifically, were the adjustments you made to your diet in order to reduce your cholesterol? If you find it quite straightforward to manage your cholesterol numbers in this way, have you considered applying this method, without additional medication?

 

[Bluetit1802]

I have had high cholesterol longer than diabetes, and I wonder how you all have made decisions re. diet to manage the two. I'm on the Newcastle Diet now, have lost 22 lbs in 14 days, and stalled ... now at Day 18 of diet. But persisting. I feel confused about the protein/meat question post diet - as I wonder if I eat a high protein/meat diet (incl. steak), etc. ... if it will spike my cholesterol. I know the forum is about diabetes, but I have read loads to know that while you may tackle diabetes with a high protein diet, it is a controvertial thing re. the consumption of meat. I was vegetarian in my twenties for 9 years, and had the best cholesterol levels ever. I'm now 47. I don't know that I could regain that. Maybe. I now eat meat and like it, and don't really know which way to go with this now - return to vegetarianism for health, or go with a Paleo type diet, etc. Zone. Whatever. Something to get through another six months of weight loss until I hit my goal. I'm now 208 lbs and aiming to get to 130, which is all within my normal BMI.

I wonder about the impact on cholesterol. Advice/ideas/thoughts/research re. the link would be appreciated.

Thanks,
MM.

Well done on sticking to the ND so far, and good luck with the weight loss.

All I can say is from personal experience.

On diagnosis
Total 6.4
Trigs 2.01
HDL 1.66
LDL 3.8
Non-HDL 4.74

Now
Total 5.5
Trigs 0.58
HDL 2.2
LDL 3.0
Non-HDL 3.3

All I have done is eat low carb, enough fat from dairy, meat, eggs, fish and cheese to compensate for lost calories, normal protein including red meat. Not a vegetable lover. Have 2 walks a day of about 20 minutes each, reduced BMI from 31 to 21.

 

[graj0]

I'll still go and see the consultant at the Lipid Clinic, when I'm back in UK, as my GP now reckons my levels are wholly endogenous, but I'd still need some persuading before I'd consider statins.

At the end of the day it can only be a personal thing, I've tried to read all the research and I just got a headache. I think it's a bit naughty that a lot of GPs in the UK don't follow the NICE guidelines. NICE might have it's problems but on Statins it makes two points very clear.
1. You should have a risk assessment before being prescribed statins, there's several available on the internet, along with the official one used by GPs.
2. It's meant to be a joint decision, nobody can tell you what to do. In my case I had pretty bad muscle pain in the legs, very poor sleep patterns, and brain fog.
After reducing my carbs my total cholesterol dropped to 3.3, I've stopped statins for over a year (after friendly discussion with GP) and I'm at 5.1 which is higher than they'd like, but it's a balance at the end of the day. Shall I be capable of walking a few extra miles, have a good nights kip (both have improved) or not.
It has to be mentioned that some people will tolerate statins without any problems at all and I feel pleased for them. I had to look up endogenous
1. Originating internally.
2. Originating or produced within an organism, tissue, or cell: endogenous hormones.
It's fairly well known that the cholesterol we eat doesn't affect our total cholesterol, the body makes up for any shortfall.

 

[AndBreathe]

At the end of the day it can only be a personal thing, I've tried to read all the research and I just got a headache. I think it's a bit naughty that a lot of GPs in the UK don't follow the NICE guidelines. NICE might have it's problems but on Statins it makes two points very clear.
1. You should have a risk assessment before being prescribed statins, there's several available on the internet, along with the official one used by GPs.
2. It's meant to be a joint decision, nobody can tell you what to do. In my case I had pretty bad muscle pain in the legs, very poor sleep patterns, and brain fog.
After reducing my carbs my total cholesterol dropped to 3.3, I've stopped statins for over a year (after friendly discussion with GP) and I'm at 5.1 which is higher than they'd like, but it's a balance at the end of the day. Shall I be capable of walking a few extra miles, have a good nights kip (both have improved) or not.
It has to be mentioned that some people will tolerate statins without any problems at all and I feel pleased for them. I had to look up endogenous
1. Originating internally.
2. Originating or produced within an organism, tissue, or cell: endogenous hormones.
It's fairly well known that the cholesterol we eat doesn't affect our total cholesterol, the body makes up for any shortfall.

Thanks graj0 - Like you, I've now done a lot of reading, and consider myself to be well informed for a lay person. I find the apparent one-size its all, diabetics should be on statins approdch to be very disappointing, given even taking into account the binary diabetes risk weighting, I still only carry a risk of 7.4%, against a "normal" person of my age at 5.6%, and still under the general NHS guidelines of 10%. Bearing in mind I have only ever had one diabetic HbA1c, with the balance well under threshold, I expressed I felt the binary nature of the T2 flag to be potentially unfair, in my circumstances. My GP agreed.

When the process was repeated, we had similar discussions, with her offering a referral to the Lipid CLinic, but I had to defer that pleasure until after I come back from my next trip overseas. To be fair, at our last discussion, the GP I was seeing (and had had two earlier discussions with) conceded that she didn't have the same in depth knowledge as me, pertaining ot e breakdowns and in particular regarding Trigs and particle size. I referred her to Professor Sikaris if she ever found herself with a spare half hour.

And my final gripe is research. really, there has been so little, with materially significant female subjects. We all know men and women are different, and fairly markedly so in terms of CV disease, so why, oh why treat everyone with the same blanket regimes?

Rant over.

I think I'll go for a calming chant in the corner. Life will seem to much better when I'm looking out into the sunshine over the blue ocean.........

 

[memememeiii]

Wow. Thank you ALL so much. This has blown my lid off today...I clearly have more research/reading to do. Thanks for the ideas, tips, leads, links, etc.

As for my diabetes levels, and cholesterol, I will have to get them from my doc when I see her on the 29th. I look forward to a fresh set of tests.

I'm not measuring my BG, but I'm on 500 mg Metformin 2x/day and my doctor has not recommended I test my sugar. I might ask her about that. Or I will. I've been, um, in denial, I think.

MM

 

[Mike d]

... and if she continues to suggest you don't test, just smile, nod your head and then ignore it and go buy a meter. It is bad advice.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Of course you need to test. Unfortunately most nurses/doctors tell us there is no need to test because they do the 3 or 6 monthly HbA1c tests, but that advice is short sighted. If you don't test to see what various foods do to your BS levels, how on earth can you learn what to eat or not to eat?

Please get yourself a meter, for your own sake.

 

[LucySW]

This video is absolutely fabulous for explaining lots about our lipids. Professor Sikaris is a low-carber, so he puts some of his presentation into that context. At 27 minutes long, it seems like it could be a drag, but it is so worth the watch:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9BFRi-nH1v8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I was going to post this too. Sikaris is brilliant, isn't he. He has several videos on YouTube. In another one, he says that LCHF typically raises overall cholesterol and LDL, but typically cuts triglycerides, and as the ratio of small dense LDL (the thing that is toxic and correlates to cardio-vascular disease) is deducible from the triglycerides number, that's usually fine. Triglycerides will drop (the most important) and HDL will rise (also important).

 

[Pasha]

I have had high cholesterol longer than diabetes, and I wonder how you all have made decisions re. diet to manage the two. I'm on the Newcastle Diet now, have lost 22 lbs in 14 days, and stalled ... now at Day 18 of diet. But persisting. I feel confused about the protein/meat question post diet - as I wonder if I eat a high protein/meat diet (incl. steak), etc. ... if it will spike my cholesterol. I know the forum is about diabetes, but I have read loads to know that while you may tackle diabetes with a high protein diet, it is a controvertial thing re. the consumption of meat. I was vegetarian in my twenties for 9 years, and had the best cholesterol levels ever. I'm now 47. I don't know that I could regain that. Maybe. I now eat meat and like it, and don't really know which way to go with this now - return to vegetarianism for health, or go with a Paleo type diet, etc. Zone. Whatever. Something to get through another six months of weight loss until I hit my goal. I'm now 208 lbs and aiming to get to 130, which is all within my normal BMI.

I wonder about the impact on cholesterol. Advice/ideas/thoughts/research re. the link would be appreciated.

Thanks,
MM.

Here is an excellent site by a brilliant doctor, http://eatingacademy.com/, hope that this helps.

 

[graj0]

Thanks graj0 - Like you, I've now done a lot of reading, and consider myself to be well informed for a lay person. I find the apparent one-size its all, diabetics should be on statins approdch to be very disappointing, given even taking into account the binary diabetes risk weighting, I still only carry a risk of 7.4%, against a "normal" person of my age at 5.6%, and still under the general NHS guidelines of 10%. Bearing in mind I have only ever had one diabetic HbA1c, with the balance well under threshold, I expressed I felt the binary nature of the T2 flag to be potentially unfair, in my circumstances. My GP agreed.

When the process was repeated, we had similar discussions, with her offering a referral to the Lipid CLinic, but I had to defer that pleasure until after I come back from my next trip overseas. To be fair, at our last discussion, the GP I was seeing (and had had two earlier discussions with) conceded that she didn't have the same in depth knowledge as me, pertaining ot e breakdowns and in particular regarding Trigs and particle size. I referred her to Professor Sikaris if she ever found herself with a spare half hour.

And my final gripe is research. really, there has been so little, with materially significant female subjects. We all know men and women are different, and fairly markedly so in terms of CV disease, so why, oh why treat everyone with the same blanket regimes?

Rant over.

I think I'll go for a calming chant in the corner. Life will seem to much better when I'm looking out into the sunshine over the blue ocean.........

Another little tale that amused my GP when we discussed statins was that 500 GPs took part in a straw poll done by the BMJ (Lancet maybe?) and 60% of GPs said that they wouldn't prescribe statins for themselves or a relative. My GP just said "I can think of one of my relatives".
Also the British Heart Foundation have a lovely graph, based on their research, showing that as cholesterol levels increase over 5.4 there is an increase in the incidence of CV disease, interestingly the graph show that there is also an increase below total cholesterol of 5.4.
Don't worry, anybody living near the C of E junior school in Hazlemere, Bucks now has the benefit of an AED (defibrillator) and I've been taught how to use it. Very interesting 1 1/2 course, I'm thinking of trying to raise some money to get one for our local shops. The stats are pretty scary compared to the States where they're shown how to use these things at school. Sorry, gone off topic, CVD slightly connected.

 

[memememeiii]

Right. I finally have some results from the summer, and, yes, my doctor is saying there is no need to measure my blood sugar constantly. I know some of you disagree with that. Hmmm. Anyway, I'm set to reschedule my blood tests as soon as I can get in.

In the meantime, if anyone knows what all this means, that would be great:

Values:
11 Aug 2014:
HbA1 level (DCCT aligned ) 38 mmol/mol (taking 1000 mg Metformin - 2 500 mg/day)
Serum Cholesterol 4.12 mmol/L (taking statin - Simvastatin)
Serum HDL cholesterol level 1.1 mmol/L

My doctor has suggested avoiding any extreme diet of any kind - only because perhaps she feels sorry for me re. the Newcastle 'pleasure' diet. On the other hand, nothing else has obtained the results I've gotten. 23 lbs lost since Jan 3, 2015 - I cheated for four days while away at a conference, sandwiches and two lattes over the weekend, plus chicken fillet grilled and salad.

Back on track, focusing on 600 cal/day.

MM.