T2's - Taking on carbs after exercise?

[stuffedolive]

I've been T2 for nearly 15 years and managed to stay off the meds through diet and exercise. It's been a bit up and down but I've pickup the running exercise a bit more recently.
I find that I run out of energy after an hour, irrespective of how fit I feel I am. My endurance doesn't last beyond that 60 mins however slow I run.

Now I understand that T2's struggle to put down muscle glycogen reserves which I what usually fuels running upto a couple of hours in a well trained body - this is a possible reason for my lack of endurance. I also understand that muscle glycogen can be topped up most efficiently within the first 30mins after exercise. This is something that I haven't been doing as I am on a low-carb diet which has improved my Hba1c.

As a bit of background, I do a fair bit of low intensity training in a fasted state ( three 1 hour pre breakfast x-trainer session per week) to improve the way my body utilises fats for exercise. Fasted training is something I always did in my pre-diabetic life when I was a keen cyclist putting in upto 200miles a week most weeks. Now, I rarely cycle, but as well as the x-trainer, I do 4-5 runs per week (75min slow, 60min hard, + 2-3 30mins hard) and a couple of strength sessions.

However that 75 min run is torture for the last 15 mins and I would love to be able to extend it to 2 hours but however I try I just run out of energy. I've tried to boost my energy levels by eating dried fruit at about 45mins but I doesn't seem to make much difference.. I'm now thinking that I should be utilising that 30 minute window after my hard training to take on some of the carbs I have been avoiding.

Does anybody have any advice on this? Does any other T2 have experience of taking on carbs just after a long exercise session?

Ta

 

[Totto]

Do you low carb? Is your thyroid in good working order?

 

[stuffedolive]

Do you low carb? Is your thyroid in good working order?

Yep - low carbing and high fats for the past year. This bought down my Hba1c and really improved my cholesterol. No thyroid problems have been reported from my blood tests and no obvious symptoms but there is a family history on the female side (Mother, sister,daughter).

 

[Totto]

Thyroid problems usually affects us females. Probably why it isn't taken very seriously by our Drs.

The older we get the greater the chance for thyroid going off. I'm not saying this is the cause but maybe you should look into it. It tends to run in families.

 

[zicksi101]

I don't expect thyroid is the issue here.

It looks like you're doing mostly hard sessions, if I was running hard 80% of the time I'd struggle to have the energy to increase the duration of that long run as well!

I think by making some of your hard sessions easier, you'll have more energy to do the long run for longer?

Worth having a listen to what coach Matt Fitzgerald has to say in this podcast: http://runneracademy.com/ra059-matt-fitzgerald-80-20-running/

 

[stuffedolive]

I don't expect thyroid is the issue here.

It looks like you're doing mostly hard sessions, ........./

Thanks for the feedback zicksi101, but I'm not doing mostly hard sessions..
The x-trainer sessions are low intensity and are in place of more high impact running sessions. I'm actually only running hard for 2 - 2.5 hours a week and doing easy runs/x-trainer for 4- 4..5. So 'hard' only makes up 1/3 of my training.

Anyways. I'm still interested in any T2's experience of eating carbs directly after long exercise.

 

[zicksi101]

Apologies, you're quite right, I somehow managed to completely miss the x-training there.

Over to the T2's...

 

[ElyDave]

Thanks for the feedback zicksi101, but I'm not doing mostly hard sessions..
The x-trainer sessions are low intensity and are in place of more high impact running sessions. I'm actually only running hard for 2 - 2.5 hours a week and doing easy runs/x-trainer for 4- 4..5. So 'hard' only makes up 1/3 of my training.

Anyways. I'm still interested in any T2's experience of eating carbs directly after long exercise.

Hard/Easy are defined by heart rate or activity type.

What HR are you working at on the runs and on the cross trainer?

 

[stuffedolive]

Hard/Easy are defined by heart rate or activity type.

What HR are you working at on the runs and on the cross trainer?

Thanks ElyDave

x-trainer 125-135 bpm = 3x 1hour sessions (finish 1 session each a week with a 3 minute HIT @ 170-180 bpm)
long slow run 145-155 bpm = 1x per week, as far past 60mins as I can
hard 60 min run 145 - 175 bpm = 1x per week (club training eg Hills or intervals or track session)
30 minute run 155-165 bpm = 2-3x per week, long intervals, fartlek, tempo

my RHR is 46, I'm 58, 68kg

 

[Baruney]

Hi Stuffedolive

Have you read The art and science of low carb performance. The authors maintain that the traditional advice on carbs isn't relevant if your in nutritional ketosis so you can bank on your fat supplies over a longer period of time (potential 40,000 cals of energy reserve) rather than 2,000 cals of carbs to call on. I'm new to all this having been diagnosed with T2 in Aug 2014 but have signed up for the Brighton marathon on 12 April and started running and running and reading and reading and experimenting on my long runs as the last thing I want to do is used carbs during or after the marathon.

I'm still experimenting but had a really good half marathon the other day on water, 1 can diet red bull and pork scratchings (salt and cals) during and water and can of anchovies after. I knocked 10 minutes off my Personal best at 2.24 (like to see Mo Farah take10 mins off his PB!!) but that was not too difficult as the only previous time was 2.34 in November! and I'm new to running.

Anyhow - after my first HM I assumed that I would need carbs to get me round so took what was offered at the stations - energy drinks etc. Felt OK during and after. Second HM - used my own low carb food/drink and could really tell the difference at the end as I felt I had more energy than when I started and recovered quickly and felt great. In fact as you may be able to tell from my rambling I'm on a bit of a high about keto exercising!

Or to cut a long story short have a look at http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/

Regards

Ed

 

[stuffedolive]

Thanks for that Baruney, there is some interesting research linked from that site.
Perhaps I am stuck between traditional carb fuelled exercise and the ketogenic state which should fuel me endlessly(?) on body/ingested fats.

My lo-carb-high-fat diet is 50-100g per day which is too high for the <50g required for the ketogenic diet. Thus, according to the link you gave, my body is still looking to get energy from ingested carbs, and as I am not givng it enough on my LCHF diet it runs out of fuel. This does make sense.

When I first started to low-carb I had 30-50g per day (ie VLCHF) for months and undoubtedly achieved the ketogenic state. When I saw my Hba1c improving I added a few more carbs in and still saw my Hba1c improve. However, the very fact that I added these few extra carbs meant that I came out of that ketogenic state and I've now got my work cut out to re-enter it, if I want my body to run efficiently on fats

So to sum up, it seems that LCHF is not a great diet for endurance exercise but rather a VLCHF diet is once the ketogenic state has been reached.

I'm pretty lean already but undoubtedly have a few kg's worth of fat in my system to call on. Now I just need the willpower to make another dietary shift. Now where did I put my book of food profiles.....?

 

[Baruney]

Thanks for that Baruney, there is some interesting research linked from that site.
Perhaps I am stuck between traditional carb fuelled exercise and the ketogenic state which should fuel me endlessly(?) on body/ingested fats.

My lo-carb-high-fat diet is 50-100g per day which is too high for the <50g required for the ketogenic diet. Thus, according to the link you gave, my body is still looking to get energy from ingested carbs, and as I am not givng it enough on my LCHF diet it runs out of fuel. This does make sense.

When I first started to low-carb I had 30-50g per day (ie VLCHF) for months and undoubtedly achieved the ketogenic state. When I saw my Hba1c improving I added a few more carbs in and still saw my Hba1c improve. However, the very fact that I added these few extra carbs meant that I came out of that ketogenic state and I've now got my work cut out to re-enter it, if I want my body to run efficiently on fats

So to sum up, it seems that LCHF is not a great diet for endurance exercise but rather a VLCHF diet is once the ketogenic state has been reached.

I'm pretty lean already but undoubtedly have a few kg's worth of fat in my system to call on. Now I just need the willpower to make another dietary shift. Now where did I put my book of food profiles.....?

Volk and phinney's book was a follow on to the art and since of low carb living, they also Co authored the new atkins diet. So although ther first books were for metabolic syndrome victims their athletic friends said what about us hence the book on sports performance. Yes I think you'll have to achieve ketosis first but the book is also written for non diabetic athletes who's aim was not to loose weight but increase endurance and avoid the need to carb load or hit the wall before an event, bonk during or have a slow recovery after.

For me the aim is weight loss and increase endurance for the marathon but for others it is just increase sports performance which is achieved by balencing out the old fats, protein and carbs to varying percents.

So.....After vlchf lchf is great for endurance once you'be work out your carb intolerance And what works for you.

 

[FantomPoet]

I have recently started to look toward more endurance training as I have foolishly signed up to a 100 mile cycle sportive in April
I have found that getting into that ketogenic zone has increased my endurance and last weekend I did 75miles before 'bonking'
that said I ate three small flapjacks in that time. I have just taken delivery of the Volk and Phinney book today because of this thread
so will go forward and try to keep the ride as carbohydrate free as I can.

It was scarey how much of a state I ended up in )bonking) but found that after about 30 minutes rest I stated to feel good again. I have found though
that on previous training ride outs I ate carbs at the end and an hour or so later my BS had dropped to 3.2 in reaction, so ended up feeling
worse

I guess it is experiment time to see what is going to allow me to reach the finish line and not end up in a ditch

 

[stuffedolive]

I have recently started to look toward more endurance training as I have foolishly signed up to a 100 mile cycle sportive in April
I have found that getting into that ketogenic zone has increased my endurance and last weekend I did 75miles before 'bonking'
that said I ate three small flapjacks in that time. I have just taken delivery of the Volk and Phinney book today because of this thread
so will go forward and try to keep the ride as carbohydrate free as I can.

It was scarey how much of a state I ended up in )bonking) but found that after about 30 minutes rest I stated to feel good again. I have found though
that on previous training ride outs I ate carbs at the end and an hour or so later my BS had dropped to 3.2 in reaction, so ended up feeling
worse

I guess it is experiment time to see what is going to allow me to reach the finish line and not end up in a ditch

Good luck with that ride FantomPoet
I know how it feels to 'bonk' or 'get the knock' on the bike so I feel for you here. I used to do some silly distances in my pre-diabetic days 20-30 yrs ago, and unless I was careful with my pacing and on-the-bike fuelling on a big ride I would 'bonk' really badly. However, at the end of the ride I would be constantly hungry and inevitably eat quite a lot of carbs , but actually feel worse for about 24 hours.

Perhaps I was unknowingly glucose intolerant back then. I was training 3-4 hours and eating 5 meals a day, based around carbs, but aside from the danger of 'the knock' .I didn't notice any problems, It was only after an enforced break from large volumes of exercise (and a 10kg weight gain) that an issue appeared.

I would dearly love to get back to some sort of endurance performance but clearly carbs are out of the question. I had thought that I could have a few 'free carbs' whilst exercising or immediately after, but now I'm not so sure. So thanks for the info and i'll look into ketogenic+endurance a bit more.

 

[Baruney]

I have recently started to look toward more endurance training as I have foolishly signed up to a 100 mile cycle sportive in April
I have found that getting into that ketogenic zone has increased my endurance and last weekend I did 75miles before 'bonking'
that said I ate three small flapjacks in that time. I have just taken delivery of the Volk and Phinney book today because of this thread
so will go forward and try to keep the ride as carbohydrate free as I can.

It was scarey how much of a state I ended up in )bonking) but found that after about 30 minutes rest I stated to feel good again. I have found though
that on previous training ride outs I ate carbs at the end and an hour or so later my BS had dropped to 3.2 in reaction, so ended up feeling
worse

I guess it is experiment time to see what is going to allow me to reach the finish line and not end up in a ditch

Hi Fantompoet

I think you'll find their study on cyclist very interesting. Let me know your thoughts once you've read the book.

How are you testing you are in a ketogenic state - experience, pee strips or blood strips? I'm just starting with all of this so are on pee strips and will def move on to blood strips within the next 2/3 weeks.

Good luck with the experiments. Have a look on you tube for bullet proof coffee! This weeks long run is a 17 Miler and I'm going to try out nuts - salted peanuts and almonds and I found a cheap isotonic drink in one of those bargain shops with zero carbs - power aid zero. Guess its cheap (29p) as everyone has been sold the energy carb loaded story which would work for those on high carb diets but not us!

Will have an emergency tin of anchovies and an unopended pack of glucose tabs with my testing kit in case I bottle it! Loads of water as well for me and the dog whose my pace setter.

 

[Baruney]

Good luck with that ride FantomPoet
I know how it feels to 'bonk' or 'get the knock' on the bike so I feel for you here. I used to do some silly distances in my pre-diabetic days 20-30 yrs ago, and unless I was careful with my pacing and on-the-bike fuelling on a big ride I would 'bonk' really badly. However, at the end of the ride I would be constantly hungry and inevitably eat quite a lot of carbs , but actually feel worse for about 24 hours.

Perhaps I was unknowingly glucose intolerant back then. I was training 3-4 hours and eating 5 meals a day, based around carbs, but aside from the danger of 'the knock' .I didn't notice any problems, It was only after an enforced break from large volumes of exercise (and a 10kg weight gain) that an issue appeared.

I would dearly love to get back to some sort of endurance performance but clearly carbs are out of the question. I had thought that I could have a few 'free carbs' whilst exercising or immediately after, but now I'm not so sure. So thanks for the info and i'll look into ketogenic+endurance a bit more.

I think you can have your free carbs once you've worked out what you can tolerate.

 

[Bravo2zero]

I've been T2 for nearly 15 years and managed to stay off the meds through diet and exercise. It's been a bit up and down but I've pickup the running exercise a bit more recently.
I find that I run out of energy after an hour, irrespective of how fit I feel I am. My endurance doesn't last beyond that 60 mins however slow I run.

Now I understand that T2's struggle to put down muscle glycogen reserves which I what usually fuels running upto a couple of hours in a well trained body - this is a possible reason for my lack of endurance. I also understand that muscle glycogen can be topped up most efficiently within the first 30mins after exercise. This is something that I haven't been doing as I am on a low-carb diet which has improved my Hba1c.

As a bit of background, I do a fair bit of low intensity training in a fasted state ( three 1 hour pre breakfast x-trainer session per week) to improve the way my body utilises fats for exercise. Fasted training is something I always did in my pre-diabetic life when I was a keen cyclist putting in upto 200miles a week most weeks. Now, I rarely cycle, but as well as the x-trainer, I do 4-5 runs per week (75min slow, 60min hard, + 2-3 30mins hard) and a couple of strength sessions.

However that 75 min run is torture for the last 15 mins and I would love to be able to extend it to 2 hours but however I try I just run out of energy. I've tried to boost my energy levels by eating dried fruit at about 45mins but I doesn't seem to make much difference.. I'm now thinking that I should be utilising that 30 minute window after my hard training to take on some of the carbs I have been avoiding.

Does anybody have any advice on this? Does any other T2 have experience of taking on carbs just after a long exercise session?

Ta

Hi I am new to this Forum and to T2 with meds, you might have all the answers you need but in a previous life I was a ultra distance runner - Mr Arthritis took away my trainers, my background was in health related fitness also looking at your training log you train hard, my own beliefs and experience tell me a LCHF diet may not be suited to your level of energy expenditure. I only have my own thoughts and I am not a diabetes expert, if you are not on meds then there is a low chance of hypo,s so risking taking in more carbs might be a short term answer and shouldn't change much if it doesn't work and you could go back to yor old routine
I would give it 6- 8 weeks to see if it works ( or not)
Take care
Dave

 

[stuffedolive]

Hi I am new to this Forum and to T2 with meds, you might have all the answers you need but in a previous life I was a ultra distance runner - Mr Arthritis took away my trainers, my background was in health related fitness also looking at your training log you train hard, my own beliefs and experience tell me a LCHF diet may not be suited to your level of energy expenditure. I only have my own thoughts and I am not a diabetes expert, if you are not on meds then there is a low chance of hypo,s so risking taking in more carbs might be a short term answer and shouldn't change much if it doesn't work and you could go back to yor old routine
I would give it 6- 8 weeks to see if it works ( or not)
Take care
Dave

Thanks Dave.

I did a 3hr hilly&muddy walk today with just a few nuts, yoghurt and 2 slices of cheesy cauliflower-bread and didn't feel hungry or tired. And that was on the back of a 5k run yesterday morning and a 70 minute hilly orienteering event (mostly jogging) last night, so my first impression is not negative.

I'll see how it goes. I'm having another Hba1c in a few weeks time and a battery of UKBiobank tests tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what comes out.

btw I too have been fighting off arthritis/gout in my big toe and thumb for over 10 years. I take cider vinegar. If I stop taking it the pain is bad, if I take it then the pain in the thumb disappears and the pain in the toe is present but not intrusive.

 

[jack412]

Yep - low carbing and high fats for the past year. This bought down my Hba1c and really improved my cholesterol. No thyroid problems have been reported from my blood tests and no obvious symptoms but there is a family history on the female side (Mother, sister,daughter).

keto LCHF should power on and not hit the wall...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8BY4fyLvZc

 

[Bebo321]

Thanks for that Baruney, there is some interesting research linked from that site.
Perhaps I am stuck between traditional carb fuelled exercise and the ketogenic state which should fuel me endlessly(?) on body/ingested fats.

My lo-carb-high-fat diet is 50-100g per day which is too high for the <50g required for the ketogenic diet. Thus, according to the link you gave, my body is still looking to get energy from ingested carbs, and as I am not givng it enough on my LCHF diet it runs out of fuel. This does make sense.

When I first started to low-carb I had 30-50g per day (ie VLCHF) for months and undoubtedly achieved the ketogenic state. When I saw my Hba1c improving I added a few more carbs in and still saw my Hba1c improve. However, the very fact that I added these few extra carbs meant that I came out of that ketogenic state and I've now got my work cut out to re-enter it, if I want my body to run efficiently on fats

So to sum up, it seems that LCHF is not a great diet for endurance exercise but rather a VLCHF diet is once the ketogenic state has been reached.

I'm pretty lean already but undoubtedly have a few kg's worth of fat in my system to call on. Now I just need the willpower to make another dietary shift. Now where did I put my book of food profiles.....?

Hi @stuffedolive

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall Peter Attia saying that if you if you calculate how much carb you have burnt through after a period of exercise, and then consume that within 30 mins of finishing, you don't get knocked out of ketosis.
Also, just as a point of interest, acetic acid is supposed to be great at improving glycogen uptake after a period of exercise (if you can bear the taste!)
You might like to do some research around these points to see if they help you achieve better results.