Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

[Susiespearish]

If it was me..I'd be asking to see another consultant, or even go for a new Team..it really sounds like 3rd world stuff to me.

Just spoken to the diabetic nurse on that team and she has advised upping the insulin to 30 and has arranged an appointment for me .I wasn't even on their "books" yet as the consultant I saw had not passed my records to them ....after six months and two visits ! She was shocked .

 

[jack412]

Just spoken to the diabetic nurse on that team and she has advised upping the insulin to 30 and has arranged an appointment for me .I wasn't even on their "books" yet as the consultant I saw had not passed my records to them ....after six months and two visits ! She was shocked .

thank goodness you have it sorted out..

 

[millysue]

Yes you're so right. It's hard enough coping with this without feeling you're not being believed by the people you turn to for support, which a few people here are feeling.
As I've said before, if it really was as simple as 'eat the right food and your BG levels WILL go down' then a lot of us wouldn't be having the problems we are having, we're not stupid and we know how to read labels and look things up in books or internet if we're not sure.

I got very fed up yesterday for variou reasons.
Things like being told tomatoes are high barbs, then the car wouldn't start due to a flat battery.

So yesterday afternoon I had 6 yes 6 packets of cheese and onion crisps washed down with three-quarters a bottle of white wine.

My bs at 11pm was 7.7
Go figure
This morning 8.5
Before lunch, 7.3
Lunch 2 poached eggs on 2 small slices of Burgen bread.
2 hours later 6.5

Yes the crisps will not help my weight, but boy they were good.
Depression is not easy to deal with.

 

[daddys1]

Yes you're so right. It's hard enough coping with this without feeling you're not being believed by the people you turn to for support, which a few people here are feeling.
As I've said before, if it really was as simple as 'eat the right food and your BG levels WILL go down' then a lot of us wouldn't be having the problems we are having, we're not stupid and we know how to read labels and look things up in books or internet if we're not sure.

Hi Rowan, I started this thread to get as many answers and views as I could, so that I and others when dealing with newbies or Oldies have a broader idea or understanding of how to cope when we are dealing with someone and the results you are expecting from a LCHF diet are not happening the way you expect for them.

The Facts are undisputed the LCHF diet works in varying degrees for lots of people and for some it is an enormous improvement, we have seen it many times before for both loosing weight and reducing sugar levels and staying in control of diabetes.

It is not a case of not believing anyone, some people are slow learners, some are confused by the enormity of the complex information given out. some would have difficulty simulating instructions for testing etc. Some are not as organised as others, I could go on but we are all different, there are others that pick it up straight away and are soon telling us and newcomers how it is done.

So where do we go from here, is it the case when someone says, "I'm doing all you tell me but nothing is happening the way I thought it would", what do we do? stop and say OK, bye, or do we question that person, is that disbelieving?, by way of helping them to make sure everything they are saying is what we are understanding they are doing to make sure.

This happened on this forum, Someone posted "I'm Ok with the porridge I have forty gram's with milk I've only moved the 2mmol/L so I don't know why my figures generally don't go below 7mmol/L". I didn't believe them, yep, I said it, I did not believe them, that the porridge was not spiking them severely, and suggested a 1hr test. They come back, "yeah did not realise how much it was spiking me, that's porridge out". I believe their numbers are now moving down, because they have now realised that sometimes you have to do the 1hr test as well. If I had not questioned/disbelieved, or by having a doubt, they would still be eating the porridge.

Neil

 

[cold ethyl]

I'd like to draw a distinction between not believing someone as in saying they are a liar, and not believing that they have fully understood or are fully embarking on a low carb lifestyle change. I think that sometimes we do overload newbies with a barrage of information that can be difficult to grasp , especially if there are other underlying issues such as anxiety, depression or difficult life circumstances. I guess we all have to try and read between the lines sometimes and be aware that we might be treading on some sensitive toes, but I do think we have to ask and say difficult things out of concern that the poster gets to actually keep those sensitive toes.
Obviously some folk turn things around straight away and for others it will be a slower change depending on the stage of their diabetes and any other compounding illnesses and medications. Of course we'd all like to run at the best figures of the people achieving non- diabetic HbA1cs on here but it isn't a competition against them rather a competition against ourselves and our meter readings. So yes, if you are on steroids for example your readings will be higher naturally, but that shouldn't be a reason for feeling defeat even before you start- just remind yourself that it is better to run at 14 than 24 and so on. Similarly, those further on with this illness may indeed have found that following the NHS advice has indeed proven the belief that it is an inevitably progressive disease , but even then, by trying as best you can to low carb, you'll help reduce the demands on your body and the need to inject.
At the end of the day we can only do our best but it doesn't hurt to have what that best is challenged.

 

[scottie1]

It is so frustrating isn't it @rowan to be told it MUST be what we are eating and that we must be doing something wrong .The assumption always seems to be that we are "ignoring" hidden carbs and when your measuring and reading every label and it isn't working it gets you angry and depressed .

Well said, I haven't posted on this thread as when I first read it, I was upset. But I totally agree with you. I am eating less than 60g carbs and my BG is not reducing as others have said it should. I don't like the implication that we are eating extra carbs. We are not fooling ourselves or others.

 

[daddys1]

Well, I've found this thread very helpful because it's brought me back to my baseline which is "I'm doing the best I can." I'm not one for empirical research (I'm Pooh Bear in real life) so I have to trust that what I'm doing will see me through. My lifestyle is now based on various opinions I found on here, with a few nips and tucks. Most of all I trust that what I need will be shown to me in one way or another.

DeejayR, you have disappointed me, I thought, from your avatar that this was a personal photo of you, I'm OK with Pooh Bear but quite a difference from the person you portray.

I have been 'hearing in my head', when reading your posts, a guy with a kind of sophisticated accent, certainly I did not imagine I was listening to Pooh Bear.

Thanks DeejayR

Neil

 

[Brunneria]

Fascinating thread and great discussion.
And I'm going back to the OP's question with this post.

Please remember that I am writing this as low carb veteran (30 yrs, on and off), who is morbidly obese, fairly sedentary, eats very low carb (anywhere from 10-50g carb, usually the lower end, but has only lost about 20 lbs in the last 12 months), and has untold ridiculous hormone nonsense going on - and therefore gargantuan levels of insulin resistence.

Yes, there are reasons (many mentioned excellently by previous posters on this thread) why it takes a while for bg to drop when people start low carbing, but there are also MANY and VARIOUS things that newbie low carbers do that sabotage their attempts to bring their bg down.

So yes, I do think that many newbies do it wrong.
But they can always learn to do it better, can't they? We ALL can.

Are they doing it deliberately? Unlikely (but possible)
Are they unable to grasp the basics? Quite possibly
Have they not yet developed the 'spider sense' that allows them to spot a hidden carb from 50 paces? VERY likely.
Is it a question of information overload? Also likely.

A few really basic mistakes that a lot of people do with the best intentions:

• Stay within their comfort zone on carb foods (no thick white toast? OK, I will swap to wholemeal pitta)
• Underestimate carb content/portions
• Fail to read the ingredients (the only excuse for this is having forgotten your glasses. if in doubt, don't buy it)
• Fail to understand the ingredients
• Eat too much fat
• Eat too little fat
• Eat too little salt
  
• Drink no sugar pop
• Drink too little water
  
• Eat processed junk (remember the ingredients, folks...)
• Have unrealistic expectations
• believe the world will end if they can't have their favourite carby snack

But, you know, I'm a veteran, and I STILL **** up, regularly.
In the last year, I have done the following, through absent mindedness, stupidity, laziness and/or what-the-heckness:

• I bought several bars of a new kind of choc. Yes, I read the ingredients. I just read it WRONG. I thought it said 85% when it actually said 55%. And I thought they were delicious and only noticed when I was opening the last bar, months later. which was very silly of me.
  
• I have allowed carb creep to happen
• And portion creep (ahhh, beloved peanut butter)
  
• I have got lax with my testing
• I have allowed the wonderful Mr B to make some gaumless food choices
• I have also allowed him to put food on my plate (his portions are SILLY) - will I NEVER learn?

So, as a veteran low carber, I f*ck up regularly.
It is very likely that newbie low carbers do it even more regularly.
It would be insanely unreasonable to expect anything else.

But that is why we post on the newbie threads, isn't it? Low carbing isn't easy, or simple, and there is always something else to learn. And every fragment of info that we post for a newbie will help. It may not help them, but it will help someone else, a member or a lurker.

And after all this time I am still learning new stuff - and sometimes I still get it wrong.
So of course newbies do it wrong.
They can't help it - it is simply too much to take on, all at once. Especially after a lifetime of thoughtless food intake, absent minded carb craving, and social indoctrination into silly-high-carbing.

 

[millysue]

Well said, I haven't posted on this thread as when I first read it, I was upset. But I totally agree with you. I am eating less than 60g carbs and my BG is not reducing as others have said it should. I don't like the implication that we are eating extra carbs. We are not fooling ourselves or others.

Hi Scottie,
Go girl. You tell them.

 

[millysue]

I think it comes down to, we are all different, what will work for one person will not necessarily work for another person.

I have friends that are twins. One had breast cancer the other didn't.

 

[DeejayR]

DeejayR, you have disappointed me, I thought, from your avatar that this was a personal photo of you, I'm OK with Pooh Bear but quite a difference from the person you portray.

I have been 'hearing in my head', when reading your posts, a guy with a kind of sophisticated accent, certainly I did not imagine I was listening to Pooh Bear.

Thanks DeejayR

Neil

Well I do have a bow tie for weddings (other people's) but otherwise I chose him as the antithesis of me. Including the generous hair. And the air of self-confidence. Perhaps he's approaching the end of his tenure.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Fascinating thread and great discussion.
And I'm going back to the OP's question with this post.

Please remember that I am writing this as low carb veteran (30 yrs, on and off), who is morbidly obese, fairly sedentary, eats very low carb (anywhere from 10-50g carb, usually the lower end, but has only lost about 20 lbs in the last 12 months), and has untold ridiculous hormone nonsense going on - and therefore gargantuan levels of insulin resistence.

Yes, there are reasons (many mentioned excellently by previous posters on this thread) why it takes a while for bg to drop when people start low carbing, but there are also MANY and VARIOUS things that newbie low carbers do that sabotage their attempts to bring their bg down.

So yes, I do think that many newbies do it wrong.
But they can always learn to do it better, can't they? We ALL can.

Are they doing it deliberately? Unlikely (but possible)
Are they unable to grasp the basics? Quite possibly
Have they not yet developed the 'spider sense' that allows them to spot a hidden carb from 50 paces? VERY likely.
Is it a question of information overload? Also likely.

A few really basic mistakes that a lot of people do with the best intentions:

• Stay within their comfort zone on carb foods (no thick white toast? OK, I will swap to wholemeal pitta)
• Underestimate carb content/portions
• Fail to read the ingredients (the only excuse for this is having forgotten your glasses. if in doubt, don't buy it)
• Fail to understand the ingredients
• Eat too much fat
• Eat too little fat
• Eat too little salt
  
• Drink no sugar pop
• Drink too little water
  
• Eat processed junk (remember the ingredients, folks...)
• Have unrealistic expectations
• believe the world will end if they can't have their favourite carby snack

But, you know, I'm a veteran, and I STILL **** up, regularly.
In the last year, I have done the following, through absent mindedness, stupidity, laziness and/or what-the-heckness:

• I bought several bars of a new kind of choc. Yes, I read the ingredients. I just read it WRONG. I thought it said 85% when it actually said 55%. And I thought they were delicious and only noticed when I was opening the last bar, months later. which was very silly of me.
  
• I have allowed carb creep to happen
• And portion creep (ahhh, beloved peanut butter)
  
• I have got lax with my testing
• I have allowed the wonderful Mr B to make some gaumless food choices
• I have also allowed him to put food on my plate (his portions are SILLY) - will I NEVER learn?

So, as a veteran low carber, I f*ck up regularly.
It is very likely that newbie low carbers do it even more regularly.
It would be insanely unreasonable to expect anything else.

But that is why we post on the newbie threads, isn't it? Low carbing isn't easy, or simple, and there is always something else to learn. And every fragment of info that we post for a newbie will help. It may not help them, but it will help someone else, a member or a lurker.

And after all this time I am still learning new stuff - and sometimes I still get it wrong.
So of course newbies do it wrong.
They can't help it - it is simply too much to take on, all at once. Especially after a lifetime of thoughtless food intake, absent minded carb craving, and social indoctrination into silly-high-carbing.

Brilliant post. Many many likes.

 

[daddys1]

Well I do have a bow tie for weddings (other people's) but otherwise I chose him as the antithesis of me. Including the generous hair. And the air of self-confidence. Perhaps he's approaching the end of his tenure.

I'm sure thats NOT 'Pooh Bear' talking

 

[millysue]

DeejayR, you have disappointed me, I thought, from your avatar that this was a personal photo of you, I'm OK with Pooh Bear but quite a difference from the person you portray.

I have been 'hearing in my head', when reading your posts, a guy with a kind of sophisticated accent, certainly I did not imagine I was listening to Pooh Bear.

Thanks DeejayR

Neil

DeejayR, sophisticated, or a Pooh Bear, I think you are an all right kind of guy.

 

[daddys1]

Fascinating thread and great discussion.
And I'm going back to the OP's question with this post.

Please remember that I am writing this as low carb veteran (30 yrs, on and off), who is morbidly obese, fairly sedentary, eats very low carb (anywhere from 10-50g carb, usually the lower end, but has only lost about 20 lbs in the last 12 months), and has untold ridiculous hormone nonsense going on - and therefore gargantuan levels of insulin resistence.

Yes, there are reasons (many mentioned excellently by previous posters on this thread) why it takes a while for bg to drop when people start low carbing, but there are also MANY and VARIOUS things that newbie low carbers do that sabotage their attempts to bring their bg down.

So yes, I do think that many newbies do it wrong.
But they can always learn to do it better, can't they? We ALL can.

Are they doing it deliberately? Unlikely (but possible)
Are they unable to grasp the basics? Quite possibly
Have they not yet developed the 'spider sense' that allows them to spot a hidden carb from 50 paces? VERY likely.
Is it a question of information overload? Also likely.

A few really basic mistakes that a lot of people do with the best intentions:

• Stay within their comfort zone on carb foods (no thick white toast? OK, I will swap to wholemeal pitta)
• Underestimate carb content/portions
• Fail to read the ingredients (the only excuse for this is having forgotten your glasses. if in doubt, don't buy it)
• Fail to understand the ingredients
• Eat too much fat
• Eat too little fat
• Eat too little salt
  
• Drink no sugar pop
• Drink too little water
  
• Eat processed junk (remember the ingredients, folks...)
• Have unrealistic expectations
• believe the world will end if they can't have their favourite carby snack

But, you know, I'm a veteran, and I STILL **** up, regularly.
In the last year, I have done the following, through absent mindedness, stupidity, laziness and/or what-the-heckness:

• I bought several bars of a new kind of choc. Yes, I read the ingredients. I just read it WRONG. I thought it said 85% when it actually said 55%. And I thought they were delicious and only noticed when I was opening the last bar, months later. which was very silly of me.
  
• I have allowed carb creep to happen
• And portion creep (ahhh, beloved peanut butter)
  
• I have got lax with my testing
• I have allowed the wonderful Mr B to make some gaumless food choices
• I have also allowed him to put food on my plate (his portions are SILLY) - will I NEVER learn?

So, as a veteran low carber, I f*ck up regularly.
It is very likely that newbie low carbers do it even more regularly.
It would be insanely unreasonable to expect anything else.

But that is why we post on the newbie threads, isn't it? Low carbing isn't easy, or simple, and there is always something else to learn. And every fragment of info that we post for a newbie will help. It may not help them, but it will help someone else, a member or a lurker.

And after all this time I am still learning new stuff - and sometimes I still get it wrong.
So of course newbies do it wrong.
They can't help it - it is simply too much to take on, all at once. Especially after a lifetime of thoughtless food intake, absent minded carb craving, and social indoctrination into silly-high-carbing.

Yes, thank you for a very straight talking and honest contribution Brunneria,
Neil

 

[rowan]

The Facts are undisputed the LCHF diet works in varying degrees for lots of people and for some it is an enormous improvement, we have seen it many times before for both loosing weight and reducing sugar levels and staying in control of diabetes.

Yes you're right, it works 'in varying degrees'. But reading some of the posts in this particular thread, we're being told to eat the right thing and it will work quickly or you must be doing something wrong.
Three quotes that show this:

Perhaps this is why, in my husband's case, his blood sugars DID fall very rapidly indeed, after starting low carb. I'm inclined to agree with @@Bluetit1802 , if your numbers don't fall, the carbs must be creeping in somehow.

You have done so well, from all these post if we all follow the instructions and don't kid ourselves then it works and very quickly.

Well, no-one has yet come forward with any scientific evidence, and it seems we are so far all in agreement. In the absence of other medical conditions, do low carb properly and it will work. Sugar levels will come right down and quickly. Play about with it and fool yourself, and they won't.

The last one has come much closer to what we should be thinking - 'In the absence of other medical conditions'.
I would imagine that being diabetic usually means there is something else amiss somewhere, even if you don't realise it could be affecting your diabetes. I know my other illnesses and meds affect mine, but there must be lots of people who don't realise. And the point some of us are trying to make is that when someone posts about their levels not going down quickly enough the first assumption is that they're eating the wrong thing, or 'fooling themselves'. I don't remember ever seeing anyone ask about other illnesses/conditions that could be affecting them in such a thread.

This thread has thrown up some interesting things, not least the fact that damaged beta cells could be a reason for high BG, this is the first I've heard about this. In all the posts I've made about my high levels, and trying to work out if there is anything else I could do to help myself, no-one has ever mentioned them to me, the only thing people have questioned is what I'm eating.
Of course questions must be asked if we want to help people, but please don't just assume they're doing it wrong one way or another, I think there's just as much chance of there being other reasons they're experiencing problems and ignoring that real possibility is likely to make people feel bad about themselves which really doesn't help at all.

 

[Brunneria]

This thread has thrown up some interesting things, not least the fact that damaged beta cells could be a reason for high BG, this is the first I've heard about this. In all the posts I've made about my high levels, and trying to work out if there is anything else I could do to help myself, no-one has ever mentioned them to me, the only thing people have questioned is what I'm eating.

That's because we are none of us able to give advice on meds.
And we get warnings from the mods if we make any suggestions.

What you will find as you read the wider forum is that people who report consistently high, uncontrolled BG, are directed to their doctor, their diabetes team, and sometimes their local A&E. When this happens, the poster often reappears, saying that they have been told that it isn't yet time for insulin. @allie1 ran at high 20s for months with virtually no help from her doc or nurse. Some people ask for insulin repeatedly before they are given the means to control their BG. I believe @susanpearish was directed to her doc repeatedly, and tried to be taken seriously by her team for months before she finally got the insulin she needed.

Have you been following @Mollie56 's threads? Her partner has been running on what I consider to be horrifying and damaging BG levels for the length of her numerous and very long threads. Her partner's diabetic team have taken their own sweet time in delayed appointments, assessments and slow decisions. He is finally on a very gentle introductory insulin regime.

There are only three things we can do - give dietary suggestions, suggest people educate themselves about their condition, and or suggest they make an appt with their doctor. This happens all over the forum. And I believe all three types of help have been offered to you.

Diet really is the first, best option for most type 2s. But if that fails then other options should be pursued.

Edited for typos.

 

[daddys1]

Yes you're right, it works 'in varying degrees'. But reading some of the posts in this particular thread, I don't remember ever seeing anyone ask about other illnesses/conditions that could be affecting them in such a thread.

This thread has thrown up some interesting things, not least the fact that damaged beta cells could be a reason for high BG, this is the first I've heard about this. In all the posts I've made about my high levels, and trying to work out if there is anything else I could do to help myself, no-one has ever mentioned them to me, the only thing people have questioned is what I'm eating.

Of course questions must be asked if we want to help people, but please don't just assume they're doing it wrong one way or another, I think there's just as much chance of there being other reasons they're experiencing problems and ignoring that real possibility is likely to make people feel bad about themselves which really doesn't help at all.

Hi Rowan, I'm a volunteer & now technically 'Non Diabetic' through doing this diet, I'm not a Doctor and all the others offering advice on this forum are also volunteers, it's impossible for us, as volunteers with no training what-so-ever, just our own experiences, to be covering all the options you require. We are human we cannot hope to get everything right all the time.

How would we know, even if we asked about medical conditions, the degree of that condition, how will it affect the blood sugars, of course we can suggest they go back to their Doctors to seek further advice which I think we do already. I think you are looking for the perfect scenario.

We are all different people dealing with all sorts of different people and not all have the same mind set.

You mention that this thread has "thrown up some interesting things, and not least the fact that damaged beta cells could be a reason for high blood glucose" If you watch the Professor Taylor Video Lecture re the Newcastle Diet, they go through the reason why some will not be reversed or have remission to Diabetes T2 because of possible excessive Beta Cell Damage, but the fact that the severe diet did reduce the fat through the weight loss & does lower the Blood Sugars considerably.

The great shame is that these Beta Cells, they believe do not regenerate, and are harmed at higher sugar levels above 8.5. It's suggested that most type 2s present with only 50 to 60% available, that's probably being diagnosed with type2 having had it for (unknowingly) 4 years, but the severity of it would have to be taken into consideration, there are so many variables. I believe professor Taylor would only suggest his 'severe diet' to those that had had a diagnosis in the last 4 years, because of this very point.

On this premise are we then to start to vet everyone and not suggest the diet to those falling into that category or do we carry learning from our experiences and also whats been learnt from this thread, try and apply those experiences the best we can and hope that in most cases with our encouragement we get it right, but I am sure experienced or inexperienced volunteers & newbies alike we will never get it right all the time.

Neil

 

[rowan]

That's because we are none of us able to give advice on meds.
And we get warnings from the mods if we make any suggestions.

What you will find as you read the wider forum is that people who report consistently high, uncontrolled BG, are directed to their doctor, their diabetes team, and sometimes their local A&E. When this happens, the poster often reappears, saying that they have been told that it isn't yet time for insulin. @allie1 ran at high 20s for months with virtually no help from her doc or nurse. Some people ask for insulin repeatedly before they are given the means to control their BG. I believe @susanpearish was directed to her doc repeatedly, and tried to be taken seriously by her team for months before she finally got the insulin she needed.

Have you been following @Mollie56 's threads? Her partner has been running on what I consider to be horrifying and damaging BG levels for the length of her numerous and very long threads. Her partner's diabetic team have taken their own sweet time in delayed appointments, assessments and slow decisions. He is finally on a very gentle introductory insulin regime.

There are only three things we can do - give dietary suggestions, suggest people educate themselves about their condition, and or suggest they make an appt with their doctor. This happens all over the forum. And I believe all three types of help have been offered to you.

Diet really is the first, best option for most type 2s. But if that fails then other options should be pursued.

Edited for typos.

I didn't mention meds, and mentioning the possibility of damaged beta cells isn't giving advice on meds, it's letting people know of an apparently common cause of high BG that I didn't know about before this thread. That would certainly come under the heading of 'suggesting people educate themselves about their condition' but no, it's only ever about the food. I did see it mentioned on another thread and asked about it but no-one replied.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I didn't mention meds, and mentioning the possibility of damaged beta cells isn't giving advice on meds, it's letting people know of an apparently common cause of high BG that I didn't know about before this thread. That would certainly come under the heading of 'suggesting people educate themselves about their condition' but no, it's only ever about the food. I did see it mentioned on another thread and asked about it but no-one replied.

There is plenty about it on the internet, and no doubt on the main DCUK website if you care to do some research. We don't have all the answers. We have had to do the research ourselves. It's all out there if you search, Rowan.