Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

[cold ethyl]

I guess that's because people just assume that folk know this about beta cells as that's the defining feature of the condition known as diabetes .. Either destroyed by immune system in type 1 and LADA or else the result of burnout due to insulin resistance and fat clogging the liver and pancreas in type 2. Maybe wrongly people make the assumption that when someone posts on the forum about what they can do to lower BS levels then that is the only advice they need at that time. Personally I'd not get too hung up on beta cell function as a cause of failure to respond to a LCHF diet until I'd given the diet a good chance to work and even then, low carbing will help preserve what function is remaining even if insulin is the next step. Many type ones on here also use the diet as part of their control. I know you have a variety of other health conditions and this will be impacting on your BS levels so it may be that you need to discuss this with your medical team and go from there. We can only make suggestions.

 

[rowan]

How would we know, even if we asked about medical conditions, the degree of that condition, how will it affect the blood sugars, of course we can suggest they go back to their Doctors to seek further advice which I think we do already. I think you are looking for the perfect scenario.

We are all different people dealing with all sorts of different people and not all have the same mind set.

You mention that this thread has "thrown up some interesting things, and not least the fact that damaged beta cells could be a reason for high blood glucose" If you watch the Professor Taylor Video Lecture re the Newcastle Diet, they go through the reason why some will not be reversed or have remission to Diabetes T2 because of possible excessive Beta Cell Damage, but the fact that the severe diet did reduce the fat through the weight loss & does lower the Blood Sugars considerably.

The great shame is that these Beta Cells, they believe do not regenerate, and are harmed at higher sugar levels above 8.5. It's suggested that most type 2s present with only 50 to 60% available, that's probably being diagnosed with type2 having had it for (unknowingly) 4 years, but the severity of it would have to be taken into consideration, there are so many variables. I believe professor Taylor would only suggest his 'severe diet' to those that had had a diagnosis in the last 4 years, because of this very point.

On this premise are we then to start to vet everyone and not suggest the diet to those falling into that category or do we carry learning from our experiences and also whats been learnt from this thread, try and apply those experiences the best we can and hope that in most cases with our encouragement we get it right, but I am sure experienced or inexperienced volunteers & newbies alike we will never get it right all the time.

Neil

No I'm not looking for the 'perfect scenario'.
A simple statement such as 'Any medical conditions you may have could affect BG' is enough to get most people thinking, realising that it might be something else and that they're not going crazy knowing they're sticking to their diet but just not getting anywhere after weeks/months. Then they can discuss it with their doctor, no-one is expecting expert medical knowledge on an endless list of other ailments. Just an acknowledgement that not following the diet properly is far from the only reason for high levels.

 

[rowan]

There is plenty about it on the internet, and no doubt on the main DCUK website if you care to do some research. We don't have all the answers. We have had to do the research ourselves. It's all out there if you search, Rowan.

Yes, and we all know how accurate the internet is. And how would I know to research about damaged beta cells if no-one has ever mentioned them to me before? People come here for help because they prefer to speak to people who are living it, we tend to trust them more than a faceless internet page. And everyone is more than happy to give their opinioins about a persons diet, so newbies could be forgiven that they must be doing something wrong, or are being accused of doing something wrong, because no-one gives a hint that it could be something other than food. That's all I'm saying.

 

[daddys1]

I didn't mention meds, and mentioning the possibility of damaged beta cells isn't giving advice on meds, it's letting people know of an apparently common cause of high BG that I didn't know about before this thread. That would certainly come under the heading of 'suggesting people educate themselves about their condition' but no, it's only ever about the food. I did see it mentioned on another thread and asked about it but no-one replied.

Rowan, It's difficult enough getting people to understand Carbs and how they should test and reduce them, without introducing them to Beta Cell deficiency.
Neil

 

[daddys1]

No I'm not looking for the 'perfect scenario'.
A simple statement such as 'Any medical conditions you may have could affect BG' is enough to get most people thinking, realising that it might be something else and that they're not going crazy knowing they're sticking to their diet but just not getting anywhere after weeks/months. Then they can discuss it with their doctor, no-one is expecting expert medical knowledge on an endless list of other ailments. Just an acknowledgement that not following the diet properly is far from the only reason for high levels.

Rowan, Are you going to train all these volunteers? who are offering their help enthusiasm and their experiences. Everybody is exceptionally nice to all these newbies really eager to help them. Surely, they (the Newbies or Oldies) have some responsibility here, maybe to say I have X do you think this might affect anything I'm doing, give us a break! we can only do our best, and I think most do that.

Neil

 

[Brunneria]

No I'm not looking for the 'perfect scenario'.
A simple statement such as 'Any medical conditions you may have could affect BG' is enough to get most people thinking, realising that it might be something else and that they're not going crazy knowing they're sticking to their diet but just not getting anywhere after weeks/months. Then they can discuss it with their doctor, no-one is expecting expert medical knowledge on an endless list of other ailments. Just an acknowledgement that not following the diet properly is far from the only reason for high levels.

Has it occurred to you that with your numerous, diverse medical problems, people are very wary of giving you any suggestions that are not simply dietary?

You (and your med team) are far and away better informed about your situation than we. And I have seen you comment more than once that information offered to you is unsuitable because of your medical condition.

When I realised that type2 had arrived, I did several things. I searched the internet. I bought some books (see my sig), and I found this forum. Then I educated myself. Asked questions. Read the forum and then bought more books.

I think beta cells were mentioned in every single source of information. This is not hidden information. Nor is it directly related to discussions on low carbing.

 

[rowan]

I guess that's because people just assume that folk know this about beta cells as that's the defining feature of the condition known as diabetes .. Either destroyed by immune system in type 1 and LADA or else the result of burnout due to insulin resistance and fat clogging the liver and pancreas in type 2.

In 10 years od being diabetic I never heard any of that from a medical person. I don't trust what most GP diabetic teams tell me, or don't tell me, we all know how accurate their knowledge is - eat more carbs!
We can't assume newbies know everything/anything about diabetes so all I'm saying is that we shouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that someone is not doing it right. That way we have people about to throw in the towel because they're following the diet, it isn't working, so they think it's a hopeless cause and give up.
Anyway, I'm finished on this thread, I feel like

 

[Bluetit1802]

Yes, and we all know how accurate the internet is. And how would I know to research about damaged beta cells if no-one has ever mentioned them to me before? People come here for help because they prefer to speak to people who are living it, we tend to trust them more than a faceless internet page. And everyone is more than happy to give their opinioins about a persons diet, so newbies could be forgiven that they must be doing something wrong, or are being accused of doing something wrong, because no-one gives a hint that it could be something other than food. That's all I'm saying.

We all do our best to help everyone, but at the end of the day a person's health is their own responsibility. You can't blame others because you didn't know about beta cells. I didn't know about them either, but I made it my business to read up about diabetes and all its implications and I learnt about how the body works as regards insulin production etc.

We talk about diet because that is the key to control, whatever type of diabetes they have. Even if you do have damaged beta cells, you will still need to follow a suitable diet with some help from additional medication if you want to gain control. Additional meds and insulin aren't cures, they just help. It is up to your medical advisors to decide if you have damaged beta cells, not members of this forum. Anyone that is following a suitable diet yet still struggling with control should be talking to their doctor. If you don't trust your doctor, find another one. They aren't all bad pennies.

 

[Kat100]

The trouble I see is , when people get overwhelmed , you really can't see the wood from the trees , so to speak , at times ....

 

[daddys1]

The trouble I see is , when people get overwhelmed , you really can't see the wood from the trees , so to speak , at times ....

I can agree with you Kat, but I do not think there is an easy answer.

There are lots of people now, even Newbies, who will move on to help people on this forum, but they will only do it from what they experienced when they got here, combined with their individual personalities and what results they have achieved.

Maybe those that are overwhelmed at the beginning, never come forward to actively help further newbies and therefore are unable to pass on their possible negative experience, because they don't take that opportunity to treat Newbies in a slightly different way.

Neil

 

[Mike d]

In 10 years od being diabetic I never heard any of that from a medical person. I don't trust what most GP diabetic teams tell me, or don't tell me, we all know how accurate their knowledge is - eat more carbs!
We can't assume newbies know everything/anything about diabetes so all I'm saying is that we shouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that someone is not doing it right. That way we have people about to throw in the towel because they're following the diet, it isn't working, so they think it's a hopeless cause and give up.
Anyway, I'm finished on this thread, I feel like

Within the confines of what we can and cannot say, remember we speak from OUR experiences. It is still down to people to conduct THEIR own research, ask their GP and ask here ... assuming we can help ......

This may not the panacea for your ills, mine or those of anyone else. It is to provide support and suggestions.

 

[AndBreathe]

In 10 years od being diabetic I never heard any of that from a medical person. I don't trust what most GP diabetic teams tell me, or don't tell me, we all know how accurate their knowledge is - eat more carbs!
We can't assume newbies know everything/anything about diabetes so all I'm saying is that we shouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that someone is not doing it right. That way we have people about to throw in the towel because they're following the diet, it isn't working, so they think it's a hopeless cause and give up.
Anyway, I'm finished on this thread, I feel like

I've been out all evening, so just caught up with quite a backlog on this thread.

Rowan, you have posted quite a lot of posts mentioning your multifarious ailments, including what sounds like an horrendous dose of Crohns. I don't envy you that one. Frankly, this is a diabetic forum, and not one where it is reasonable to expect posters to have any sort of handle on comps
Ex issues such as yours appear to be. But, if I'm going to get just a bit picky here, I could point out that on my year and a bit of being diagnosed diabetic, I appear to have got my head around it more than you, in your 10 years. Now, of course, it's not a competition to see who is the smartest smart%*se on the forum, but I do think it's reasonable to expect those suffering a condition, who are intellectually able, to do some research for themselves into their own condition, so I'm utterly astonished that you haven't encountered mention of beta cell functionality along the way.

If you have interest in it, there's plenty out there, including some mentions by Professor Taylor in his excellent work, which may well focus on the eating plan known as the Newcastle Diet, which he designed, but does summarise metabolic dysfunction and beta cell degradation. A quick Google will take you to the relevant site.

 

[Kat100]

I can agree with you Kat, but I do not think there is an easy answer.

There are lots of people now, even Newbies, who will move on to help people on this forum, but they will only do it from what they experienced when they got here, combined with their individual personalities and what results they have achieved.

Maybe those that are overwhelmed at the beginning, never come forward to actively help further newbies and therefore are unable to pass on their possible negative experience, because they don't take that opportunity to treat Newbies in a slightly different way.

Neil

...very complex this one , with so many experiences ...from so many people ,,back to perceptions , attitudes and beliefs ....and many other issues ....no easy answer I have always agreed with that ..there are posssbly many reasons as to why new people don't come back to participate ...which is a shame , But everyone will have their views ...that could be a whole new thread ...best wishes ..Kat

 

[millysue]

In 10 years od being diabetic I never heard any of that from a medical person. I don't trust what most GP diabetic teams tell me, or don't tell me, we all know how accurate their knowledge is - eat more carbs!
We can't assume newbies know everything/anything about diabetes so all I'm saying is that we shouldn't immediately jump to the conclusion that someone is not doing it right. That way we have people about to throw in the towel because they're following the diet, it isn't working, so they think it's a hopeless cause and give up.
Anyway, I'm finished on this thread, I feel like

Mee to

 

[Winnie53]

I attended my second diabetes education/support group yesterday. There are four in our community, so two more to go. This particular one is facilitated by the nutritionists at the hospital. It's a monthly drop in group that follows a question and answer format. When I introduced myself, the facilitator gave a brief history of Dr. Bernstein and began listing all the foods that are not allowed. To this the response was, I'm not giving up my potatoes. To the facilitator's credit, I was able to give examples of what I eat on this restricted diet, and there was a more positive response to that.

I now have at least 5 books that I'm reading. The Eat Fat book by Trudi Deakins (sp?) is on its way but will likely take weeks to get here. Blood Sugar 101 by Jenny Ruhl is another book that was delayed in getting to me. I have not seen Trudi's book yet, but what I can say is that Bernstein's book offers the best description so far of how to get started on the diet for a diabetic, type 1 or 2. That opinion may change after I read all the books cover to cover.

I don't recall reading in Bernstein's book about the daily sodium intake need or the carb, fat, protein ratios that are often discussed here, but perhaps I missed it.

My plan is to start a diabetes low carb education and support group locally, but I'm months away from that because I've got to first figure out how to clearly, concisely, and completely instruct "newbies" on the do's and don'ts of this diet.

The first group I attended was a women's group for type 1's using the insulin pump. These are the most amazing people, many of whom have been living with diabetes type 1 for more than 40 years. I have to say, the prospect of facilitating a group for type 2's is challenging, but I don't think I could do it for type 1's unless I had a well informed type 1 co-facilitator.

And then when you factor in the complications of the diabetes itself, and common co-exsisting conditions. All I can say is wow. And I should add here I facilitated an education and support group for eight years.

I think what is most helpful for newby's is to keep asking smart questions as most of you are already doing, and keep asking. It's a process. Bernstein himself, a trained engineer (and problem solver) took a full year to develope the diet that worked best for him, and now us, in part based on an animal study on how to control glucose levels, and in part on the feedback he got from his first glucose meter. I had an advantage that most people don't have starting this diet. I already had eliminated gluten from my diet, so I had a lot of practice and experience going into to this, reading labels for example.

So I guess my other point is to judge people individually not as a group as to their ability to come up to speed and put into practice this diet.

For the most part, the support I've received here has been excellent. And I plan on participating here for a very long time.

And I am now close to being late for work, so heading out the door now...

 

[modesty007]

Fascinating tread. Having escaped diabetes type 2, after all signs of metabolic syndrome by reading and learning about LCHF - the original Scandinavian LCHF no other version. Initially I was chasing substitutes but realised it would be easier to simplify it and avoid treats, but i'm not faultless. So far sticking with the version from dietdoctor (now in SA called Banting) and now aiming at less then 10 gram of carbs per day, it's actually easier then you think. Instead of thinking of this as a diet, this would be a chosen life style or way of eating (WOE). I'm probably more carb sensitive then most people and there's no way back to all the rubbish I used to eat.

 

[Brunneria]

I attended my second diabetes education/support group yesterday. There are four in our community, so two more to go. This particular one is facilitated by the nutritionists at the hospital. It's a monthly drop in group that follows a question and answer format. When I introduced myself, the facilitator gave a brief history of Dr. Bernstein and began listing all the foods that are not allowed. To this the response was, I'm not giving up my potatoes. To the facilitator's credit, I was able to give examples of what I eat on this restricted diet, and there was a more positive response to that.

I now have at least 5 books that I'm reading. The Eat Fat book by Trudi Deakins (sp?) is on its way but will likely take weeks to get here. Blood Sugar 101 by Jenny Ruhl is another book that was delayed in getting to me. I have not seen Trudi's book yet, but what I can say is that Bernstein's book offers the best description so far of how to get started on the diet for a diabetic, type 1 or 2. That opinion may change after I read all the books cover to cover.

I don't recall reading in Bernstein's book about the daily sodium intake need or the carb, fat, protein ratios that are often discussed here, but perhaps I missed it.

My plan is to start a diabetes low carb education and support group locally, but I'm months away from that because I've got to first figure out how to clearly, concisely, and completely instruct "newbies" on the do's and don'ts of this diet.

The first group I attended was a women's group for type 1's using the insulin pump. These are the most amazing people, many of whom have been living with diabetes type 1 for more than 40 years. I have to say, the prospect of facilitating a group for type 2's is challenging, but I don't think I could do it for type 1's unless I had a well informed type 1 co-facilitator.

And then when you factor in the complications of the diabetes itself, and common co-exsisting conditions. All I can say is wow. And I should add here I facilitated an education and support group for eight years.

I think what is most helpful for newby's is to keep asking smart questions as most of you are already doing, and keep asking. It's a process. Bernstein himself, a trained engineer (and problem solver) took a full year to develope the diet that worked best for him, and now us, in part based on an animal study on how to control glucose levels, and in part on the feedback he got from his first glucose meter. I had an advantage that most people don't have starting this diet. I already had eliminated gluten from my diet, so I had a lot of practice and experience going into to this, reading labels for example.

So I guess my other point is to judge people individually not as a group as to their ability to come up to speed and put into practice this diet.

For the most part, the support I've received here has been excellent. And I plan on participating here for a very long time.

And I am now close to being late for work, so heading out the door now...

I must say, I am loving the videos that you are scattering across threads.
Very informative.
Thank you.

 

[rowan]

Rowan, you have posted quite a lot of posts mentioning your multifarious ailments, including what sounds like an horrendous dose of Crohns. I don't envy you that one. Frankly, this is a diabetic forum, and not one where it is reasonable to expect posters to have any sort of handle on comps
Ex issues such as yours appear to be. But, if I'm going to get just a bit picky here, I could point out that on my year and a bit of being diagnosed diabetic, I appear to have got my head around it more than you, in your 10 years. Now, of course, it's not a competition to see who is the smartest smart%*se on the forum, but I do think it's reasonable to expect those suffering a condition, who are intellectually able, to do some research for themselves into their own condition, so I'm utterly astonished that you haven't encountered mention of beta cell functionality along the way.

Where have I ever said I expect anyone to have a handle on my complications? Even most doctors have never seen a case like mine so there's no way I would expect it of people here. I do wish people would stop making me out to be unreasonable, especially when it's for something I haven't done!

Well done you for getting your head around it more than I have. Maybe you'd be as ill-informed as I obviously am if you'd had 10 years of other stuff so painful and life-threatening (I've been near to death 4 times with 2 different illnesses, spending many months in hospital) that diabtetes really was the very least of your problems and just getting though each day living alone as a very sick and disabled person is about as much as you could cope with.
Add on top of that the extensive research I've had to do on other health issues and how to cope with them, issues that are not common enough to have any forums like this to get any help or support from. So I'm sorry I've not researched as well as you but I've had more pressing problems to deal with, I'm not superwoman and I can't do everything.

As for you being 'utterly astonished' that I've not heard of beta cell damage, so am I, but I'll bet I'm not the only one here not to know about it. Why do people assume that we know all about the technical side of diabetes (as someone posted earlier), but not how to feed themselves properly?

My posts on this thread have not been about me although several of you have tried to turn them against me, they have been about other people who are upset because they feel they're not being believed, as I explained several times. I personally don't give a ***** who believes me or not because I know I'm doing the best I can.
And as I have pointed out several times on this thread, ALL I've been saying is that we shouldn't automatically assume that people's BG is not reducing as fast as yours might have done because they're not low carbing correctly. There are other possible reasons, but I mentioned the beta cell damage as an example only after a few people mentioned it on here, not because I expected anyone here to have told me about it beforehand.

So, all this has shown me that a lot of people don't read posts properly, they're putting words into my mouth that I hadn't even thought of, and in this thread I've felt that I'm being attacked by a pack of rabid dogs, just for trying to help a few people who are upset and feeling misunderstood. And it's for that reason that I no longer feel comfortable posting here, so I won't be coming back to the forums and I've asked for my account to be closed.

 

[Janiept]

I am another who knew nothing about beta cell damage before reading this thread and because of that am grateful that this thread was started.
I feel less happy that Rowan feels so unhappy that she needs to leave the forum because of perceived victimization. Surely it's possible to put your point of view without making people feel stupid and/or misguided.
We can help people to gain knowledge without being unkind and by using suggestion rather than verbal demoralizing.

 

[Mike d]

And it's for that reason that I no longer feel comfortable posting here, so I won't be coming back to the forums and I've asked for my account to be closed.

"Rabid dogs" is a bit strong, but each to their own. You might care to consider the massive support you have received rather than the perceived "attacks". Keep well