Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

daddys1

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I am another who knew nothing about beta cell damage before reading this thread and because of that am grateful that this thread was started.
I feel less happy that Rowan feels so unhappy that she needs to leave the forum because of perceived victimization. Surely it's possible to put your point of view without making people feel stupid and/or misguided.
We can help people to gain knowledge without being unkind and by using suggestion rather than verbal demoralizing.

Hi Janiept, it's me that's started this thread and in 'no way' did I expect there to be casualties along the way.

It is disappointing that she has felt this way, to bring her to the point of closing her account.

There are people on here that work tirelessly (I am amazed at the dedication that some have) to help people with support and information along the way. I am afraid that if we started telling people about Beta Cell Deficiency, when we have not a clue what stage people are at, they would most definitely be put off before we've started, do you really think we would have the success we have with so many people with the LCHF or degrees of, on reducing blood sugars?

I think if you read very carefully through this thread, you may end up with a different view.

Neil
 
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Daffodils1

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Hello all,
In the context of this thread, comments by Robert Lustig in book Fat Chance, the bitter truth about sugar, where he considers impact of hereditary genes and biochemistry, have some relevance, but am finger typing on tablet and too tired to go into details!

Interesting that in chapter 17 he explains which type of diets benefit people with certain conditions, and there is one scenario (insulin resistance caused by genetic variation) where he advises high carb low fat better.

Rowan, if you are still reading, sorry to see you go.
 
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Mike d

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That is (if I may say so) a bit harsh @Janiept

What do you want people to do? Say nothing? Ignore the posts? You can't go thru life without encountering the supposed negatives, be they perceived or real. I'm sure even rowan agrees with that. I wish her the best, but if you hit hurdles, you jump them ... and for the greater part, she sure has.

When i joined I knew next to nothing about neuropathy, retinopathy, immune system compromises, diets, LCHF, what to eat, what NOT to eat, acceptable sugars, testing times ....... and every message I sent received a response so I learnt as I went along. I am ONLY in that position because of others so if you think I'm "clued up" then please dismiss that thought. I'm far from an expert, but I'm a light year ahead of where I was. I stay here as I still have much to learn. I stay here as I still have debts to repay thru advice to new members.

I do not walk away. I wish her well as I would any other. Tread your own path

Mike
 
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Hedonista

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I'm immensely grateful to the people on this forum for their patience and guidance.

One of the things this forum helped me with, was feeling less stigmatised and ashamed that I'd 'done this to myself'. Rowan's point, I think, is that sometimes, even if you do everything 'right' your BG won't respond, or respond as well as expected, because of other factors, and that it's good to bear that in mind when responding to people. I agree that we do often fool ourselves, or aren't well informed enough to realise we're making mistakes, but sometimes, people may be doing everything they can/should do and still not getting the results.

I've found the transition to LCHF mind-blowing and still don't really believe I'm not storing up trouble for the future by changing my diet from a high (unrefined) carb, lots of fruit and limited dairy type diet to this one. I fear heart disease, cancer etc, quite aside from setting aside some of my concerns about animal welfare just for now, while I deal with the complicated transition into this diet/lifestyle and see if it works for me.

There's a lot of information to absorb when we're first diagnosed. Food means so much to us, too, and letting go of certain foods and ways of eating can be not just a practical issue, but an emotional challenge. Our natural defences against difficult and sometimes frightening information, means we newbies may not take it all in at once, or take it in very well!
 
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daddys1

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That is (if I may say so) a bit harsh @Janiept

What do you want people to do? Say nothing? Ignore the posts? You can't go thru life without encountering the supposed negatives, be they perceived or real. I'm sure even rowan agrees with that. I wish her the best, but if you hit hurdles, you jump them ... and for the greater part, she sure has.

When i joined I knew next to nothing about neuropathy, retinopathy, immune system compromises, diets, LCHF, what to eat, what NOT to eat, acceptable sugars, testing times ....... and every message I sent received a response so I learnt as I went along. I am ONLY in that position because of others so if you think I'm "clued up" then please dismiss that thought. I'm far from an expert, but I'm a light year ahead of where I was. I stay here as I still have much to learn. I stay here as I still have debts to repay thru advice to new members.

I do not walk away. I wish her well as I would any other. Tread your own path

Mike
Mike, Wish I could have put it into these words, really great.
Neil
 
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LucySW

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Have you bought the book people recommended - Carbs & Cals? You can't just split most foods into one group or another because most foods contain amounts of each. Meat has a lot of protein, and it also has a lot of fats, but no fibre or carbs. Eggs are a mix of protein and fats, but no carbs or fibre. Bread has carbs but also fat, protein and fibre. It is a huge learning curve, and if you have a food diary and track these nutrients, you will get there.
Or the app http://www.carbsandcals.com/products/carb-and-calorie-counter-app/

Really, it's not hard or ghastly. It becomes easy, with a shortish learning period. Saves you lots of headaches. Good luck.

Edit. Oh, sorry, months behind the times. Hadn't read thread. Well never mind, I'll leave link there anyway because useful
 
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daddys1

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I'm immensely grateful to the people on this forum for their patience and guidance.

One of the things this forum helped me with, was feeling less stigmatised and ashamed that I'd 'done this to myself'. Rowan's point, I think, is that sometimes, even if you do everything 'right' your BG won't respond, or respond as well as expected, because of other factors, and that it's good to bear that in mind when responding to people. I agree that we do often fool ourselves, or aren't well informed enough to realise we're making mistakes, but sometimes, people may be doing everything they can/should do and still not getting the results.

I've found the transition to LCHF mind-blowing and still don't really believe I'm not storing up trouble for the future by changing my diet from a high (unrefined) carb, lots of fruit and limited dairy type diet to this one. I fear heart disease, cancer etc, quite aside from setting aside some of my concerns about animal welfare just for now, while I deal with the complicated transition into this diet/lifestyle and see if it works for me.

There's a lot of information to absorb when we're first diagnosed. Food means so much to us, too, and letting go of certain foods and ways of eating can be not just a practical issue, but an emotional challenge. Our natural defences against difficult and sometimes frightening information, means we newbies may not take it all in at once, or take it in very well!
Hi Hedonista, I agree, I think you have captured the essence of it all.
Neil
 
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jack412

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I am another who knew nothing about beta cell damage before reading this thread and because of that am grateful that this thread was started.
I feel less happy that Rowan feels so unhappy that she needs to leave the forum because of perceived victimization. Surely it's possible to put your point of view without making people feel stupid and/or misguided.
We can help people to gain knowledge without being unkind and by using suggestion rather than verbal demoralizing.
there is also the point that @Giverny doesn't want us to 'overwhelm' the new person. I can assure you beta cells were in my list of 8 or so links




Edited to remove contents of PM.
 
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Mike d

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Hi Neil

I reckon you have ...... I just had more time up my sleeve to think about it.

Mike :)
 
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millysue

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Where have I ever said I expect anyone to have a handle on my complications? Even most doctors have never seen a case like mine so there's no way I would expect it of people here. I do wish people would stop making me out to be unreasonable, especially when it's for something I haven't done!

Well done you for getting your head around it more than I have. Maybe you'd be as ill-informed as I obviously am if you'd had 10 years of other stuff so painful and life-threatening (I've been near to death 4 times with 2 different illnesses, spending many months in hospital) that diabtetes really was the very least of your problems and just getting though each day living alone as a very sick and disabled person is about as much as you could cope with.
Add on top of that the extensive research I've had to do on other health issues and how to cope with them, issues that are not common enough to have any forums like this to get any help or support from. So I'm sorry I've not researched as well as you but I've had more pressing problems to deal with, I'm not superwoman and I can't do everything.

As for you being 'utterly astonished' that I've not heard of beta cell damage, so am I, but I'll bet I'm not the only one here not to know about it. Why do people assume that we know all about the technical side of diabetes (as someone posted earlier), but not how to feed themselves properly?

My posts on this thread have not been about me although several of you have tried to turn them against me, they have been about other people who are upset because they feel they're not being believed, as I explained several times. I personally don't give a ***** who believes me or not because I know I'm doing the best I can.
And as I have pointed out several times on this thread, ALL I've been saying is that we shouldn't automatically assume that people's BG is not reducing as fast as yours might have done because they're not low carbing correctly. There are other possible reasons, but I mentioned the beta cell damage as an example only after a few people mentioned it on here, not because I expected anyone here to have told me about it beforehand.

So, all this has shown me that a lot of people don't read posts properly, they're putting words into my mouth that I hadn't even thought of, and in this thread I've felt that I'm being attacked by a pack of rabid dogs, just for trying to help a few people who are upset and feeling misunderstood. And it's for that reason that I no longer feel comfortable posting here, so I won't be coming back to the forums and I've asked for my account to be closed.
Where have I ever said I expect anyone to have a handle on my complications? Even most doctors have never seen a case like mine so there's no way I would expect it of people here. I do wish people would stop making me out to be unreasonable, especially when it's for something I haven't done!

Well done you for getting your head around it more than I have. Maybe you'd be as ill-informed as I obviously am if you'd had 10 years of other stuff so painful and life-threatening (I've been near to death 4 times with 2 different illnesses, spending many months in hospital) that diabtetes really was the very least of your problems and just getting though each day living alone as a very sick and disabled person is about as much as you could cope with.
Add on top of that the extensive research I've had to do on other health issues and how to cope with them, issues that are not common enough to have any forums like this to get any help or support from. So I'm sorry I've not researched as well as you but I've had more pressing problems to deal with, I'm not superwoman and I can't do everything.

As for you being 'utterly astonished' that I've not heard of beta cell damage, so am I, but I'll bet I'm not the only one here not to know about it. Why do people assume that we know all about the technical side of diabetes (as someone posted earlier), but not how to feed themselves properly?

My posts on this thread have not been about me although several of you have tried to turn them against me, they have been about other people who are upset because they feel they're not being believed, as I explained several times. I personally don't give a ***** who believes me or not because I know I'm doing the best I can.
And as I have pointed out several times on this thread, ALL I've been saying is that we shouldn't automatically assume that people's BG is not reducing as fast as yours might have done because they're not low carbing correctly. There are other possible reasons, but I mentioned the beta cell damage as an example only after a few people mentioned it on here, not because I expected anyone here to have told me about it beforehand.

So, all this has shown me that a lot of people don't read posts properly, they're putting words into my mouth that I hadn't even thought of, and in this thread I've felt that I'm being attacked by a pack of rabid dogs, just for trying to help a few people who are upset and feeling misunderstood. And it's for that reason that I no longer feel comfortable posting here, so I won't be coming back to the forums a
nd I've asked for my account to be closed.

Beta cell damage, until reading this thread I had never heard of it.
Research, are we saying that everyone with diabetes should do their own research.
My brother is 75, he is type 2. He doesn't have a computer, his children has shown him how to use a "fancy phone. "
Do I tell him stop believing what the NHS has told him and go do some research.
He would say, well they got me through that heart opp, 2 new valves triple by pass. And with their rehabilitation. I can now dig my own garden.

I bet there are very few people on this site that are type 2 and don't have other problems. Thats why we started to look on the www in the first place.
If people follow the lchf and see changes within a couple of weeks, well good luck to them.
I came to this site because, of support, this I have had from Rowan and some others.
Telling people your can't be doing right, or your should be reading labels, I find this very demeaning.
I hope you don't go Rowan you have helped. Best regards Rowan.
 
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AndBreathe

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Beta cell damage, until reading this thread I had never heard of it.
Research, are we saying that everyone with diabetes should do their own research.
My brother is 75, he is type 2. He doesn't have a computer, his children has shown him how to use a "fancy phone. "
Do I tell him stop believing what the NHS has told him and go do some research.
He would say, well they got me through that heart opp, 2 new valves triple by pass. And with their rehabilitation. I can now dig my own garden.

I bet there are very few people on this site that are type 2 and don't have other problems. Thats why we started to look on the www in the first place.
If people follow the lchf and see changes within a couple of weeks, well good luck to them.
I came to this site because, of support, this I have had from Rowan and some others.
Telling people your can't be doing right, or your should be reading labels, I find this very demeaning.
I hope you don't go Rowan you have helped. Best regards Rowan.

This is a fine line millysue. Are you saying participants should observe new members appearing to make bloopers and just ignore it without feedback? I don't think that achieves anything, and indeed, I'd say that's criminal. Everyone on here makes a judgement each time they post. A judgement on what they are responding to- based on the initiators post, their knowledge and 99.9999999% of the time, this will have the recipients best interests at heart. Very few, and I mean very few posters on here will post anything they believe will be hurtful or unhelpful. We have had the odd troll, or frankly nutter, but they are incredibly few and far between.

The reactions to those replies sometimes indicate the respondent got something wrong in their interpretation of the original post and sometimes the response reinforces the respondents belief.

Gross generalisation alert here: some members arrive here expecting some form of panacea whereby their condition will vapouris, or dramatically improve, at worst, without any effort, or change on their part. Sadly, the same 99.9 recurring % realise this is unlikely to happen, without divine intervention, but new member resistance can be quite long standing.

This is a bewildering condition, at the outset, and along the way the diabetes fairy lobs in the occasional curved ball, just to keep us on our toes. But, it is absolutely up to us to keep on our toes and do our own research. To go blindly on our GPs' advice, on any condition, makes no sense in my view. To me, that's handing over accountability for that condition to someone else. If I have a potentially life damaging condition, I want to understand it, to give myself th best chances of the best outcomes.

Your brother was probably brought up in a time when our doctors were Demi-gods and questions were not asked. My GP isn't a Demi-God, he's the bloke who likes to drink with his pals in the village pub, after shooting at the weekends. And another is the proud father of a pro rugby player, but they're not demi-gods. Hell. My GP has only just given up smoking. How long have those messages been out there loud and clear?

I respect my GP. He's a great bloke and gave me the most incredible support when I was extremely ill almost 30 years agon (where does time go). On one occasion we both cried through an appointment, so I can't ever say he doesn't care about his patients.

I'm sorry this is a rant, but sometimes I find the expression of spoonfed entitlement by some posters to be just overwhelming. (And that comment isn't about Rown or anyone else in particular. It's another general comment, based on 15 months of forum usage.). Perhaps it's time I had a break from the forum. Who knows.
 
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Muggle71

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Can't speak for millysue but I was meaning ive never heard of beta cells...
 

daddys1

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So it's not just me then. There was I thinking I was the only, slow! Old! Newbie!
Me too. Been keeping quiet for the last few days...
Hi,
I'm getting lost here, if you had heard of them i.e. known about them earlier, would it have made a difference to how you would have dieted/eaten or listened to advice, as you would not know whether you had a full compliment or not of the Beta Cells, anyone telling a newbie about them, this could in fact have made them worry even more about all the complications.

Why is it such a big thing now, knowing about them, knowing only gives you an understanding of how diabetes can be triggered, you could just as much have a fatty liver with a full compliment beta cells & still be diabetic.

Neil
 
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Bluetit1802

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Hi Muggle71 & Millysue,
Out of interest - has knowing about beta cells - made everything clearer for you? ie how you view your diabetes/treatment?


Can't speak for millysue but I was meaning ive never heard of beta cells...

Hi Muggle,

I think @Kezzer was meaning, now you do know about beta cells, has this made anything clearer and helped you make decisions about how better to manage your diabetes?
 
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