Insulin load index / most ketogenic foods

[Spiker]

@Spiker , @tim2000s here's my latest draft post... on how to steer the metabolic boat.

Would love your thoughts.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v0pxj84g5h6y9vd/The Goldilocks glucose zone.docx?dl=0

Hi Marty. Sorry I have been off line a couple of weeks. I will take a look. Like your new title!

 

[martykendall]

You are very welcome Marty and thank you for your great work and for taking the feedback in the constructive spirit that was intended!

Thanks @Spiker!

Here's a couple more that I would appreciate your thoughts on:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wup3s49spt2h5va/The Goldilocks glucose zone.doc?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tfm9wchx0...lin and glucagon response to protein.doc?dl=0

I feel like I'm bravely venturing out into uncharted territory. Again, I would value your wisdom and guidance.

 

[tim2000s]

Morning @martykendall, I've had a read through the goldilocks article this morning. I've a couple of observations that I'll type up when I'm not on a phone.

Intrigued to read your glucagon article. The various discussions on here led to me writing my own blog post linked to this topic. It's the first you'll come to if you follow the link in my signature.

 

[martykendall]

Morning @martykendall, I've had a read through the goldilocks article this morning. I've a couple of observations that I'll type up when I'm not on a phone.

Intrigued to read your glucagon article. The various discussions on here led to me writing my own blog post linked to this topic. It's the first you'll come to if you follow the link in my signature.

Enjoyed your blog post @tim2000s

Yours covers overlapping territory to mine.

Certainly a minimally understood and challenging subject area.

It's been blowing my mind trying to understand it and debate it!

 

[tim2000s]

Enjoyed your blog post @tim2000s

Yours covers overlapping territory to mine.

Certainly a minimally understood and challenging subject area.

It's been blowing my mind trying to understand it and debate it!

Indeed it does, and I think we have to tread carefully in this respect. I can fully understand the perspective that Roger Unger has opened up based on my experiences of food consumption. I've started a debate with my diabetic team relating to Amylin and Glucagon, so it will be interesting to see where that one goes.

Reading your glucose/insulin/glucagon article, what stood out to me is that it doesn't pick up on the roles that insulin (and Amylin) have in suppressing Glucagon response and potentially why both T1 and T2 diabetics are more susceptible to GNG than non-diabetics as a result of Insulin resistance.

I've not yet found clear clinical studies relating to lack of satiety in Type 2 diabetics as a result of insulin and maybe amylin resistance (or maybe depletion as a result of high BG levels resulting in damage to the beta cells) but I think this is also linked in to the equation.

What I've also found is that by increasing basal insulin, I've been able to limit GNG caused by the (relatively) higher protein content of my diet. Now this could be down to one of two factors. Either a) It stops the liver undertaking GNG autonomously or b) it either regulates glucagon release or inhibits the reaction to glucagon in the liver and restricts GNG in the process. Either way, it has an impact, which is why I want to try Symlin (Synthetic Amylin) and see what the results are.

 

[tim2000s]

@martykendall I've been doing some food experiments in relation to the Carbs+(0.54 x Protein) calcs over the weekend and it's throwing up some interesting findings.

We made a high meat content sausage and leek gratin, which has 17g carbs plus 35g of protein per portion. It also contains 27g of fat per portion. It is made with a goats cheese. Sticking to the formula, and applying the anticipated insulin requirement resulted in a lower than expected bg level approximately 1 hour post eating. It then showed a significant bg level incline 2.0 hours post prandially.

The point being that the calculation probably needs fine tuning with regard to some form of fat divisor that reduces the initial insulin loadr and extends the period post eating over which insulin is required, much like the well known pizza (and fish and chips) effect.I suspect there is a threshold amount of fat that triggers this variance.

 

[Spiker]

Tim would you say the fat affected the total insulin requirement, or just the timing?

 

[tim2000s]

Tim would you say the fat affected the total insulin requirement, or just the timing?

I think it's rather complex. Where a low carb meal, the fat just extended the time it took for the various glucose metabolism processes to take place.

On the other hand, with a high carb meal, eg fish and chips or pizza, it increases the insulin requirement and also extends the duration over which it needs applying.

Just my observations though.

 

[Spiker]

Ok that fits with the research suggesting that temporary elevated blood lipids from fat bolus cause temporary impaired insulin sensitivity /impaired "carb tolerance".

 

[nigelho]

Total Available Glucose, a method for calculating insulin doses that uses protein and fat in the calculation as well as just carbs.

@Heathenlass, got more?

Maybe this is why I have to allow approx 8 carb for an egg when I do my carb count calculations...protien..I love eggs and bacon etc but without allowing for the eggs my BSs spike.

 

[LucySW]

Quickly posting a David Mendosa post this week which obviously intersects somehow with Marty Kendall's insulin index stuff, but at micro-glance I'm not sure how .. take a look guys.

Lucy

 

[tim2000s]

What I take from that @LucySW is that he hasn't looked particularly hard at protein and the effects of it on blood glucose levels.

 

[Spiker]

Thanks for posting @LucySW.

I agree with Tim. It's a weak (and very late) rehash of the Brand-Miller data without a lot of insight. Including as Tim says lacking the basic insight that protein can be glycemic - that's not news, not around here anyway, and it shouldn't be news to David. In general I think Mendoza is just a news service or even a PR service and doesn't assess things critically. For example he relays the 'news' that Brand-Miller's study shows that the insulin index is a better match for the actual insulin response, like that was some kind of empirically proved fact, rather than inherent in her definition and her methodology.

 

[Spiker]

By the way I am not denigrating Brand Miller or her insulin load index work, which I think is outstanding. Just underwhelmed by Mendoza's weak, "it's all about me" take on it.

 

[Celeriac]

Thanks for starting this thread guys, lots of interesting posts. I want to know why there isn't a book on The Insulin Index, I would find it useful as a strict LCHF T2. I upped my fat content at night, literally snacking on creme fraiche and clotted cream and wiped out my Dawn Phenomenon. Started reading Marty's website and ditched milk, *high five it's awesome* and book please.

 

[Indy51]

Just received my email newsletter from Low Carb Downunder and was chuffed to see that @martykendall is presenting at two of their upcoming events in Melbourne and Brisbane:

http://www.lowcarbdownunder.com.au/events/the-evidence-for-low-carb-nutrition/

Low Carb Downunder usually post videos of their lectures on Youtube, so hopefully we'll get to see Marty's presentation eventually

 

[Indy51]

Thought I would post this here as it's related to the whole subject of insulin/hyperinsulinemia.

Amazing blogpost by Ivor Cummins at the Fat Emperor Blog discussing the work of Dr Kraft, inventor of the insulin assay and his book on the Diabetes Epidemic. Fascinating stuff!

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2015/9/7/kraft-summary-re-post-for-those-who-missed-it

Definitely worth watching the video as well.

 

[LucySW]

Thought I would post this here as it's related to the whole subject of insulin/hyperinsulinemia.

Amazing blogpost by Ivor Cummins at the Fat Emperor Blog discussing the work of Dr Kraft, inventor of the insulin assay and his book on the Diabetes Epidemic. Fascinating stuff!

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2015/9/7/kraft-summary-re-post-for-those-who-missed-it

Definitely worth watching the video as well.

Thanks for posting this Indy. I'd not heard of Kraft. Another direction to read up in!

 

[LucySW]

Thought I would post this here as it's related to the whole subject of insulin/hyperinsulinemia.

Amazing blogpost by Ivor Cummins at the Fat Emperor Blog discussing the work of Dr Kraft, inventor of the insulin assay and his book on the Diabetes Epidemic. Fascinating stuff!

http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2015/9/7/kraft-summary-re-post-for-those-who-missed-it

Definitely worth watching the video as well.

Jason Fung comments on the Kraft insulin profile findings as well in this latest blogpost.

 

[FatEmperor]

Indeed it does, and I think we have to tread carefully in this respect. I can fully understand the perspective that Roger Unger has opened up based on my experiences of food consumption. I've started a debate with my diabetic team relating to Amylin and Glucagon, so it will be interesting to see where that one goes.

Reading your glucose/insulin/glucagon article, what stood out to me is that it doesn't pick up on the roles that insulin (and Amylin) have in suppressing Glucagon response and potentially why both T1 and T2 diabetics are more susceptible to GNG than non-diabetics as a result of Insulin resistance.

I've not yet found clear clinical studies relating to lack of satiety in Type 2 diabetics as a result of insulin and maybe amylin resistance (or maybe depletion as a result of high BG levels resulting in damage to the beta cells) but I think this is also linked in to the equation.

What I've also found is that by increasing basal insulin, I've been able to limit GNG caused by the (relatively) higher protein content of my diet. Now this could be down to one of two factors. Either a) It stops the liver undertaking GNG autonomously or b) it either regulates glucagon release or inhibits the reaction to glucagon in the liver and restricts GNG in the process. Either way, it has an impact, which is why I want to try Symlin (Synthetic Amylin) and see what the results are.

Satiety snippit: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zsv8ndgno7inyz/Insulin Suppression.pdf?dl=0