"Tight control"

Erin

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I have been reading some articles on the net regarding the overestimation and even possible damage in the treatment of "tight control", which is practiced through hypoglycemic medications. For the example the sulfonylureas were first manufactured in the 70s and were close to a miracle diabetes drug. Statistics show in many articles and even WHO and other prestigious organizations that "tight control" through these medications, control long-term complications. Possibly, numbers in the 5s are correlated with being euglycimic, but I am not sure if the pancreatic function actually eradicates diabetes. On the other hand, in some journals such as The New England Journal of Medicine, cautions the frequency of heart and stroke disease is common with "tight control" as the diabetic progresses in age.

So, the big question might be, which is worse hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia.

I would like to read the history of diabetic side effects before this treatment was used with these drugs, and see the comparison with the probability of diabetic side effects, such as retinopathy, nephropathy, heart, stroke, amputations, etc. with current effects. I know that my old-fashioned grandmother, who was diabetic for quite some time, used archaic treatments and measured blood sugar, through urine tests. When she died it was due to a stroke in her 70s.

I'm getting a book from Amazon, on the controversy of the treatment of diabetes soon.
 
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urbanracer

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Hi Erin,

Is this with respect to having a1c's in the 5's ?
 

Erin

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urbanracer

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Ian DP

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Have a read of Dr Bernsteins diabetic solution (around £5.00 on kindle and iBook). He has pretty much proved that you can avoid diabetic complications if you keep to around 4.6 fasting and 5.6 2 hours after meal levels. This he has established is the 'normal' non diabetic BG level. It's an interesting read. He has been doing it for around 50 years now, did have complications, none now.
 

Erin

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Have a read of Dr Bernsteins diabetic solution (around £5.00 on kindle and iBook). He has pretty much proved that you can avoid diabetic complications if you keep to around 4.6 fasting and 5.6 2 hours after meal levels. This he has established is the 'normal' non diabetic BG level. It's an interesting read. He has been doing it for around 50 years now, did have complications, none now.


Thank you Ian. I do have Dr. Bernstein's email and his journal. I must say thought that those numbers may be for young, and cardiac-healthy states. As you get older higher numbers are not so risky for even those are hypoglycemic. Not all numbers are the same for everyone given their age, and other illnesses, especially heart disease.
 

Ian DP

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Thank you Ian. I do have Dr. Bernstein's email and his journal. I must say thought that those numbers may be for young, and cardiac-healthy states. As you get older higher numbers are not so risky for even those are hypoglycemic. Not all numbers are the same for everyone given their age, and other illnesses, especially heart disease.
Dr Bernstein is 81 years old.
 
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Wurst

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As you get older higher numbers are not so risky for even those are hypoglycemic.

Where did you get this information I have never heard of it before ?
I
 

phoenix

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I would like to read the history of diabetic side effects before this treatment was used with these drugs, and see the comparison with the probability of diabetic side effects, such as retinopathy, nephropathy, heart, stroke, amputations, etc. with current effects. I know that my old-fashioned grandmother, who was diabetic for quite some time, used archaic treatments and measured blood sugar, through urine tests. When she died it was due to a stroke in her 70s

You have to go back to the early 1950s to be before oral drugs and of course to before 1922 to be before insulin.
Here's quite a grim article from the 1950s ( though as you can imagine, there aren't that many actually online)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1929977/pdf/bullnyacadmed00465-0029.pdf
"The incidence of premature arteriosclerosis in the adult as measured by retinopathy, hypertension and albuminuria appears to be identical with that in the juvenile diabetic. Here, too, the earliest retinal lesions were noted about thirteen years after onset of diabetes, and associated with hypertension and albuminuria in about 50 per cent of patients.' An apparent acceleration of the lesions was typical of the mild cases in this older age group, because of the insidious undramatic onset of diabetes sothat duration of the disease could not be determined accurately. The incidence of fatal coronary disease in diabetes is twice that of non-diabetic males and triple that of non-diabetic females....
The diabetic predisposition to peripheral vascular disease is even more striking. Bell claims that on the basis of arteriosclerosis alone, gangrene develops nearly forty times more frequently in diabetic than in non-diabetic individuals..' (continues in similarly depressing manner including) ' Accelerated vascular damage which is an associated phenomenon and not a complication of diabetes appears to be related primarily to the duration of the disease; its course up to the present time has not been altered significantly by the use of insulin, the type of diet or the level of control of glycosuria and hyperglycemia.'


There were arguments about whether glycaemic control made any difference in outcome.
.Those arguments were partially resolved in that the UKPDS (a type 2 trial) showed that tight(er) control, (not really that tight, 7% compared with 7.9% over 10 years) including the Sulfs and insulinimproved microvascular outcomes; but unfortunately there was no improvement in macrovascular outcomes.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9742976

In contrast,the DCCT and EPIC trials in Type 1 showed benefits for both microvascular and macrovascular outcomes. (again tight control was ~7%) but with younger patients no real effect on mortality demonstated. However 8 years later they showed significant reductions in both the incidence of CVD events and death from them
The downside was that the lower HbA1cs increased the risks of serious hypoglycaemic events(ie those that needed intervention from another person)

The really good thing was that follow up over many years has showed what they call a legacy effect; this period of tight control seems to have beneficial effects in later years. The effect persists even if glucose levels rose to those of the non tight control group . http://www.niddk.nih.gov/about-nidd...l-follow-up-study/Documents/DCCT-EDIC_508.pdf

Ten years later they also found a legacy effect in the intensive treatment arm of the UKPDS demonstrating reductions in MIs and overall mortality.
http://www.jwatch.org/jw200810140000001/2008/10/14/legacy-effect-intensive-control-type-2-diabetes

Roll forward and three fairly recent trials that looked at tight control in T2 again.
Accord; took those with long term T2, medicated them down with an aim of 6% and had to be stopped because of increased cardiovascular mortality in the intensive arm. (reduced microvascular complications though) http://www.diapedia.org/introduction-to-diabetes-mellitus/accord
Advance: again started with people at risk of CVD; reduced levels more slowly, found no harm and slightly reduced macrovascular complications, a bigger improvement in microvascular outcomes but no reduced mortality either. So far, they have found no legacy effect for glucose control but have found that there was one for tight blood pressure control http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/832114
VADT: older men with high HbA1c . Again no adverse effects , lower incidence of cardiovascular events but no reduction in mortality.http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/845848#vp_2

The big difference between UKPDS and the later trials is I think the age and the length of time people had had T2 before the trials
(and in some cases, quite possibly the drugs used)
And you'll find lots of interpretations and reanalysis of these trials from every different viewpoint.

None of them really have much relevance to those that do not require drugs or insulin .
In the 1950s this was an option that would 'work' for fewer people than today. Most wouldn't have been diagnosed until they had had diabetes for a number of years. (even in the nineteen nineties when there was a fasting level used for diagnosis, it was higher than the fasting level used today; the HbA1c for diagnosis only came in the last couple of years)
 

Erin

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You have to go back to the early 1950s to be before oral drugs and of course to before 1922 to be before insulin.
Here's quite a grim article from the 1950s ( though as you can imagine, there aren't that many actually online)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1929977/pdf/bullnyacadmed00465-0029.pdf
"The incidence of premature arteriosclerosis in the adult as measured by retinopathy, hypertension and albuminuria appears to be identical with that in the juvenile diabetic. Here, too, the earliest retinal lesions were noted about thirteen years after onset of diabetes, and associated with hypertension and albuminuria in about 50 per cent of patients.' An apparent acceleration of the lesions was typical of the mild cases in this older age group, because of the insidious undramatic onset of diabetes sothat duration of the disease could not be determined accurately. The incidence of fatal coronary disease in diabetes is twice that of non-diabetic males and triple that of non-diabetic females....
The diabetic predisposition to peripheral vascular disease is even more striking. Bell claims that on the basis of arteriosclerosis alone, gangrene develops nearly forty times more frequently in diabetic than in non-diabetic individuals..' (continues in similarly depressing manner including) ' Accelerated vascular damage which is an associated phenomenon and not a complication of diabetes appears to be related primarily to the duration of the disease; its course up to the present time has not been altered significantly by the use of insulin, the type of diet or the level of control of glycosuria and hyperglycemia.'


There were arguments about whether glycaemic control made any difference in outcome.
.Those arguments were partially resolved in that the UKPDS (a type 2 trial) showed that tight(er) control, (not really that tight, 7% compared with 7.9% over 10 years) including the Sulfs and insulinimproved microvascular outcomes; but unfortunately there was no improvement in macrovascular outcomes.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9742976

In contrast,the DCCT and EPIC trials in Type 1 showed benefits for both microvascular and macrovascular outcomes. (again tight control was ~7%) but with younger patients no real effect on mortality demonstated. However 8 years later they showed significant reductions in both the incidence of CVD events and death from them
The downside was that the lower HbA1cs increased the risks of serious hypoglycaemic events(ie those that needed intervention from another person)

The really good thing was that follow up over many years has showed what they call a legacy effect; this period of tight control seems to have beneficial effects in later years. The effect persists even if glucose levels rose to those of the non tight control group . http://www.niddk.nih.gov/about-nidd...l-follow-up-study/Documents/DCCT-EDIC_508.pdf

Ten years later they also found a legacy effect in the intensive treatment arm of the UKPDS demonstrating reductions in MIs and overall mortality.
http://www.jwatch.org/jw200810140000001/2008/10/14/legacy-effect-intensive-control-type-2-diabetes

Roll forward and three fairly recent trials that looked at tight control in T2 again.
Accord; took those with long term T2, medicated them down with an aim of 6% and had to be stopped because of increased cardiovascular mortality in the intensive arm. (reduced microvascular complications though) http://www.diapedia.org/introduction-to-diabetes-mellitus/accord
Advance: again started with people at risk of CVD; reduced levels more slowly, found no harm and slightly reduced macrovascular complications, a bigger improvement in microvascular outcomes but no reduced mortality either. So far, they have found no legacy effect for glucose control but have found that there was one for tight blood pressure control http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/832114
VADT: older men with high HbA1c . Again no adverse effects , lower incidence of cardiovascular events but no reduction in mortality.http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/845848#vp_2

The big difference between UKPDS and the later trials is I think the age and the length of time people had had T2 before the trials
(and in some cases, quite possibly the drugs used)
And you'll find lots of interpretations and reanalysis of these trials from every different viewpoint.

None of them really have much relevance to those that do not require drugs or insulin .
In the 1950s this was an option that would 'work' for fewer people than today. Most wouldn't have been diagnosed until they had had diabetes for a number of years. (even in the nineteen nineties when there was a fasting level used for diagnosis, it was higher than the fasting level used today; the HbA1c for diagnosis only came in the last couple of years)


Thank you for the report above; it's really well written. As for age and higher numbers, this is an interpretation from ("Diabetes in the Elderly". Canadian Diabetes Assoc., Clinical Practice Guidelines, Ch. 37, 2013): ,,,"Unfortunately aging is a risk factor for severe hypoglycemia with efforts to intensify therapy.".....etc.
 

Brunneria

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I think, when looking at low HbA1cs, that it is VERY important to distinguish between individuals who have a low score through steadily maintaining their blood glucose at normal or near normal levels, and people who have a low score because they hypo a lot.

The first group is (hopefully) at no more risk of diabetic complications than a non diabetic would be.
The second group is likely to be at risk from thinks like fluctuating blood glucose levels and harm from hypos including seizures, and all the other stuff, right up to brain damage and death.

Unfortunately, health care professionals seem to assume that someone with a low HbA1c belongs to the second group, rather than the first. There have been many, many, well controlled diabetics who have posted on this forum, after a well-meaning HCP has told them to raise their score, for their own safety.
 
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Erin

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I think, when looking at low HbA1cs, that it is VERY important to distinguish between individuals who have a low score through steadily maintaining their blood glucose at normal or near normal levels, and people who have a low score because they hypo a lot.

The first group is (hopefully) at no more risk of diabetic complications than a non diabetic would be.
The second group is likely to be at risk from thinks like fluctuating blood glucose levels and harm from hypos including seizures, and all the other stuff, right up to brain damage and death.

Unfortunately, health care professionals seem to assume that someone with a low HbA1c belongs to the second group, rather than the first. There have been many, many, well controlled diabetics who have posted on this forum, after a well-meaning HCP has told them to raise their score, for their own safety.


Hi everyone,

I received my Amazon 2nd hand book on this topic:

"Controversies in Treating Diabetes: Clinical and Research Aspects

Ed. by Derek Le Roith, M.D. PhD., Aaron I. Vinik, M.D. PhD, FCP, FACP

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes, and Bone Disease, Dept. of Medicine, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New Yor, NY.

Diabetes Research Inst., Dept. of Medicine, Eastern Virginia, Medical Schoo, The Leonard Strelitz Diabetes Inst., Norfol, VA.

2007

It is a very interesting book with a medical slant. It only cost me around $10.00
p.s. my husband is devoted to tight control because he thinks that coming close to the "normal" glucose number means you are close to non-diabetic. But I think that is something to be investigated from a biological analysis.
Cheers