Transition to real food post newcastle diet

[Steve50]

Hi Guys

Been off the meds for a week now - reading last night was quite high but back down again this morning - so, not anxious - but watchful.

I have tried a new approach to keeping my weight low. in the past I have tried HFLC, I have tried 5:2 and I have tried fasting. All were ok - and had their relative +'s and -'s - but none really effective in the longer term. It feels like my weight is like a cork being held under the surface of the water. Take away whatever is holding it down, and it rises back up again!

So, this week I have been doing what i like to call a mini NP. That is, from Monday I have been on 600cals + 200 veg. I dropped 4.2 kg in just three days - back down to my post NP weight. Of course, and as usual, this was probably mostly water - but importantly, it was sustainable. I have enough residual memory of the NP for this to feel like quite a natural and achievable existence - and it was a lot more comfortable that fasting. (I even found that 'Savers' stock Slimfast at £1 a bottle - bonus!) It had no effect on my digestive system, I felt healthy and was not hungry. However, I suspect my blood sugar was up because I did this using Slimfast - which I think most would agree is high in sugar. What I need is a Diabie version of Slimfast.

I remain determined to keep to my post NP weight - and even lose more if possible - but that wont happen this week. I have a dinner to go to tonight at a particularly nice restaurant - so the boat will be pushed well and truly out! But - what is wrong with that? Especially if it is now the exception, and not the rule. I had a thought the other day, that my lifestyle had descended into taking what was once regarded as a treat (i.e. a glass of wine, a biscuit or piece of cake) as an expected and unremarkable intake of carbs. I am now thinking of these events as treats again - and actually am looking forward to them. My greedy subconscious is even plotting when the next 'treat' might be.

I am going to explore alternatives to Slimfast. A conversation I know we have had. I want to see if the mini NP helps maintain weight in the longer term - and if so, how might this be done without effecting my fasting bloods too much. I am still holding to the idea that total recovery (if possible) is going to be slow - and keeping weight low is fundamental to this recovery. So - a continuing work in progress.

 

[Steve50]

Thanks for the reply I don't really know what a lot of these things mean "lchf" "non diabetic bg's" "a1c" - I have a lot of googling to do! I've just found the rest of the forum and I'm going to spend a little while exploring and finding out as much as I can. It's nice not to be on my own with this anymore. I've got a fair bit to learn, I think.

Hi Misty - and thanks for contributing to this group. We really do need to build the store of evidence, and your experience provides another case arguing for the NP (Newcastle Program) to be better known by GP's and perhaps even prescribed by the NHS.

This thread also discusses comfort factors - and the all important 'next steps' - so please keep telling us how you are getting on - and what is working best for you. In particular, if you have found a way to maintain weight and perhaps even lose a bit more, I for one would like to hear about it.

 

[AndBreathe]

Hi Guys

Been off the meds for a week now - reading last night was quite high but back down again this morning - so, not anxious - but watchful.

I have tried a new approach to keeping my weight low. in the past I have tried HFLC, I have tried 5:2 and I have tried fasting. All were ok - and had their relative +'s and -'s - but none really effective in the longer term. It feels like my weight is like a cork being held under the surface of the water. Take away whatever is holding it down, and it rises back up again!

So, this week I have been doing what i like to call a mini NP. That is, from Monday I have been on 600cals + 200 veg. I dropped 4.2 kg in just three days - back down to my post NP weight. Of course, and as usual, this was probably mostly water - but importantly, it was sustainable. I have enough residual memory of the NP for this to feel like quite a natural and achievable existence - and it was a lot more comfortable that fasting. (I even found that 'Savers' stock Slimfast at £1 a bottle - bonus!) It had no effect on my digestive system, I felt healthy and was not hungry. However, I suspect my blood sugar was up because I did this using Slimfast - which I think most would agree is high in sugar. What I need is a Diabie version of Slimfast.

I remain determined to keep to my post NP weight - and even lose more if possible - but that wont happen this week. I have a dinner to go to tonight at a particularly nice restaurant - so the boat will be pushed well and truly out! But - what is wrong with that? Especially if it is now the exception, and not the rule. I had a thought the other day, that my lifestyle had descended into taking what was once regarded as a treat (i.e. a glass of wine, a biscuit or piece of cake) as an expected and unremarkable intake of carbs. I am now thinking of these events as treats again - and actually am looking forward to them. My greedy subconscious is even plotting when the next 'treat' might be.

I am going to explore alternatives to Slimfast. A conversation I know we have had. I want to see if the mini NP helps maintain weight in the longer term - and if so, how might this be done without effecting my fasting bloods too much. I am still holding to the idea that total recovery (if possible) is going to be slow - and keeping weight low is fundamental to this recovery. So - a continuing work in progress.

Can I throw something into the melting pot for consideration?

You seem very keen to maintain your Post-ND weight, whatever that is (relatively unimportant to this post). Professor Taylor states, somewhere in his work (I haven't gone back to find it, but I have an excellent memory for these salient facts), that immediately post-ND, it is reasonable to expect that the subject's weight will increase a modest amount; to take into account the increased amounts of food/nutrition, how it is held in the body during it's transit, and erm,..... how long it all takes to transit. I have expanded those points for illustrative purposes only; not suggesting anyone had bathroom issues or anything else.

So, perhaps to try to maintain the absolute level you finished the ND at, whilst consuming more food is unrealistic, and lead to the issues you are facing; trying to keep it pegged there?

My suggestion would be to lose a little more weight, then see how things go from there when you normalise your eating patterns. I'm not talking about further wheelbarrow loads of weight, but maybe 3kg/7lbs?

I've stated often, on here, that most "normal people" run within a few pounds tolerance with their weight. They don't necessarily track it, it just happens as they go about their business, regulating their food intake in a way many of us seem to have lost. My OH never diets, but if he has a feast one evening, maybe with friends, he quite instinctively doesn't want to eat too much next day (Lucky s*%!). When he weighs himself, which he has done more, incidentally since he also trimmed his carb intake, in sympathy with me (everyone say "Ahhhhhhh" ). Initially he lost about 3-4kg, then stabilised as he worked out his new requirements, but he still runs within a band of about 3kg/7lbs. It ebbs and flows, to his disinterest - increasing transiently when he eats a lot - and most markedly when that quite a lot is carbs, as they tend to carry water through the intestinal track, and falls back if he has a couple of not too hungry days or if we happen to have a couple of days where he also eats lower carb than usual.

So, to summarise, maybe go lower, so that when you do, as Professor Taylor predicts gain a modest amount, it takes you to the level you really want to stay at? That, or accept a tweak up in your "natural weight band", and monitor that over a couple of months?

 

[misty unsworth]

Lchf low carb high fat
A1c is your 3 month average of bg
Bg is blood glucose so your bg levels
Out of interest what are your fasting readings now and after meal reads.
I started doing one and 2 hour reads initially but now I am only doing 1 hour readings to see my peak as we usually peak at about 1 hour after meal. It could be different for you and me and also depends on the type of food, some act very fast and some slow.

Lchf is I would just say a magic for us diabetics like nd.
So anything which is low in carbs is what I eat like eggs meat cheese nuts(not all) and as Andrew said carrots. I love them.
I have loads of salads, you can have low carb dressings in them too.
I just like it simple lemon and salt.
Love meat but hate fish personally but now started salmon as it's a lot less smelly. I will tag @daisy1 to give you more info for new members. That will clear a lot of things for you.

Thanks again. I have only had 2 blood tests 90 days apart. 52 -> 41. Are these home tests you can have? Do they work? I tried 2 tests with the finger pricking tests and one was 4 (a few yrs ago, random non-fasting) the other 5 (non-fasting the same week as the 52 fasting hosp score) - I don't think they worked for me.

Love the lchf options - that will suit me really well when I eat carbs I get carb cravings, the more carby stuff I eat, the stronger the cravings to have more carbs, reduce the carbs and the cravings reduce. I'm going to read/digest the Daisy post now - it looks brilliant.

 

[misty unsworth]

Here is the information Brettsza referred to above which we give to new members. I hope this will help you in your transition.


BASIC INFORMATION FOR NEW MEMBERS

Diabetes is the general term to describe people who have blood that is sweeter than normal. A number of different types of diabetes exist.

A diagnosis of diabetes tends to be a big shock for most of us. It’s far from the end of the world though and on this forum you’ll find over 150,000 people who are demonstrating this.

On the forum we have found that with the number of new people being diagnosed with diabetes each day, sometimes the NHS is not being able to give all the advice it would perhaps like to deliver - particularly with regards to people with type 2 diabetes.

The role of carbohydrate

Carbohydrates are a factor in diabetes because they ultimately break down into sugar (glucose) within our blood. We then need enough insulin to either convert the blood sugar into energy for our body, or to store the blood sugar as body fat.

If the amount of carbohydrate we take in is more than our body’s own (or injected) insulin can cope with, then our blood sugar will rise.

The bad news

Research indicates that raised blood sugar levels over a period of years can lead to organ damage, commonly referred to as diabetic complications.

The good news

People on the forum here have shown that there is plenty of opportunity to keep blood sugar levels from going too high. It’s a daily task but it’s within our reach and it’s well worth the effort.

Controlling your carbs

The info below is primarily aimed at people with type 2 diabetes, however, it may also be of benefit for other types of diabetes as well.
There are two approaches to controlling your carbs:

• Reduce your carbohydrate intake
• Choose ‘better’ carbohydrates

Reduce your carbohydrates

A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce the amount of carbohydrates they eat as they have found this to be an effective way of improving (lowering) their blood sugar levels.

The carbohydrates which tend to have the most pronounced effect on blood sugar levels tend to be starchy carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread, potatoes and similar root vegetables, flour based products (pastry, cakes, biscuits, battered food etc) and certain fruits.

Choosing better carbohydrates

Another option is to replace ‘white carbohydrates’ (such as white bread, white rice, white flour etc) with whole grain varieties. The idea behind having whole grain varieties is that the carbohydrates get broken down slower than the white varieties –and these are said to have a lower glycaemic index.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/food/diabetes-and-whole-grains.html

The low glycaemic index diet is often favoured by healthcare professionals but some people with diabetes find that low GI does not help their blood sugar enough and may wish to cut out these foods altogether.

Read more on carbohydrates and diabetes

Eating what works for you

Different people respond differently to different types of food. What works for one person may not work so well for another. The best way to see which foods are working for you is to test your blood sugar with a glucose meter.

To be able to see what effect a particular type of food or meal has on your blood sugar is to do a test before the meal and then test after the meal. A test 2 hours after the meal gives a good idea of how your body has reacted to the meal.

The blood sugar ranges recommended by NICE are as follows:

Blood glucose ranges for type 2 diabetes

• Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 8.5 mmol/l

Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (adults)

• Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 9 mmol/l

Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (children)

• Before meals: 4 to 8 mmol/l
• 2 hours after meals: under 10 mmol/l

However, those that are able to, may wish to keep blood sugar levels below the NICE after meal targets.

Access to blood glucose test strips

The NICE guidelines suggest that people newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes should be offered:

• structured education to every person and/or their carer at and around the time of diagnosis, with annual reinforcement and review
• self-monitoring of plasma glucose to a person newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes only as an integral part of his or her self-management education

Therefore both structured education and self-monitoring of blood glucose should be offered to people with type 2 diabetes. Read more on getting access to bloodglucose testing supplies.

You may also be interested to read questions to ask at a diabetic clinic

Note: This post has been edited from Sue/Ken's post to include up to date information.

Thank you. This is a revelation.

 

[misty unsworth]

Hi Misty - and thanks for contributing to this group. We really do need to build the store of evidence, and your experience provides another case arguing for the NP (Newcastle Program) to be better known by GP's and perhaps even prescribed by the NHS.

This thread also discusses comfort factors - and the all important 'next steps' - so please keep telling us how you are getting on - and what is working best for you. In particular, if you have found a way to maintain weight and perhaps even lose a bit more, I for one would like to hear about it.

Hi Steve50, thanks for the reply. The weight thing is hard! I've done the same as you - put loads on, lost it all, put it all back on again, lost it all again, put it all back on again. This 90 day ND has been brilliant for me. I'm good at following strict rules (although I did have cravings, and indulged them, for extra shakes - the sugar bit of the ND) The more I cut carbs out, them less I need or crave them. I like this lchf way that seems to be popular / effective on here - that's what I'm going to try for the next 6 months. I'm not good when there's too much flexibility or choice - I will tend to choose the pleasure now pain later option. I have plenty more weight to lose (4.5st down, prob about the same to go) and now this forum has shown me some ways to transition from ND to lchf that's my plan! If I struggle, I'll go back to ND and start again (although prob not for 90 days next time! maybe more like a week!)

Is there a specific space where people have recorded or standardized their ND experiences? I would love to contribute all my stats if they're useful.

 

[andcol]

Why stop ND if you have another 4.5st to go? Surely if you have found something that works continue until you get close to your target and then increase slowly. I didn't stp after 8 weeks. I went on and on. I had a target, reached my target increase food did low carb and intermittent low cal and reduced several months later to an new target.

Just because ND was prescribed for 8 weeks as part of the trial doesnt mean that has to be the end. Don't be so rigid....

 

[Steve50]

I think what Andrew says makes a great deal of sense. I have never questioned the time frame of the NP. I have just considered this as a science - and the time frame must be there for a reason - but logically - why not continue? Perhaps a break is not such a bad thing - but to go back on the NP till target weight is reached sounds logical. There may also be the 'recency' effect - that is, greater gains are made at the start. So - the more times you 'start' the greater the results.

 

[AndBreathe]

I am in agreement with Andrew who suggests carrying on with the diet for longer than 8 weeks, where a much greater loss is required. Where 8 weeks takes the person to within a couple of KG of their target weight, the arguments could be to carry on for the short while to get the last bit off too.

In all of my reading, and, if I recall accurately, in his presentation from January of this year, Professor Taylor reiterates the key issue in all of this is weight loss, and breeching the individual's Personal Fat Threshold (PFT). He states the weightloss method is unimportant, it is the loss and vitally breeching the PFT causing the improvement. Of course the pesky bit is knowing where the P is for each of us in the phrase PFT. Some individuals will be able to carry more fat than others, without teatering over into the diabetic arena.

I am sure having a start date and end date makes the ND more tolerable, but it's not like a course of antibiotics that once started must be finished, and when finished can only followed by another course. If I recall, Pipp and scottish-jim did the diet for considerably longer than the eight weeks with great effect.

I didn't do the ND, but I did lose weight and appear to have breeched my PFT and gained serially non-diabetic blood scores, but for me, in my simple mind, I didn't want to have to keep finding new ways of doing things. For me, that very idea increased the potential for burnout, followed by spectacular wagon sabbaticals into the carb closet. I didn't fancy that, so for me, it was about finding a way of making the simplest adjustments, when the time came.

 

[brettsza]

End of week 11 yesterday but could not post
I actually gained another kilo last week but I admit I had lot of carbs for two or three days but back on lchf
BG's remained in 5's except a few 6's after 1 hour
Started 5 mile walks since yesterday so second day today.
Hoping to get myself down 1 kilo by end of this week

 

[Bewildered]

Gosh there is a lot to read, and I will, however I just wanted to share my progress.i posted on the previous thread and managed 6 weeks on slim fast. So I now have a HbA1c of 42 instead of my previous 88. In total I have lost 3st 7 lb since December. I am still taking metformin sr 2g but think I need to review this with the GP as I've had a few hypos now. Just don't want to be telling him about them, so will say I've had a few low 4's, that way I can keep getting test strips on prescription.
I am now on low carb, sort of high fat. Finding I can't eat so much at each meal, I don't know if this is the metformin or the slim fast period, note I don't call it NP, as I wasn't strict enough to claim this.
Anyhow, I am looking forward to reading back over the posts on here. X

 

[AndBreathe]

Gosh there is a lot to read, and I will, however I just wanted to share my progress.i posted on the previous thread and managed 6 weeks on slim fast. So I now have a HbA1c of 42 instead of my previous 88. In total I have lost 3st 7 lb since December. I am still taking metformin sr 2g but think I need to review this with the GP as I've had a few hypos now. Just don't want to be telling him about them, so will say I've had a few low 4's, that way I can keep getting test strips on prescription.
I am now on low carb, sort of high fat. Finding I can't eat so much at each meal, I don't know if this is the metformin or the slim fast period, note I don't call it NP, as I wasn't strict enough to claim this.
Anyhow, I am looking forward to reading back over the posts on here. X

Tell me about your hypos?

How low do you go? How do you feel when you go low? And what do you do to deal with the low? All of those things will influence what I say next.

Well done on the weight loss and HbA1c.

 

[Bewildered]

Tell me about your hypos?

How low do you go? How do you feel when you go low? And what do you do to deal with the low? All of those things will influence what I say next.

Well done on the weight loss and HbA1c.

Hi, tends to be if I go 5 hrs or more, hit 3.5 as my lowest, generally feel a bit shaky and hungry, little bit lightheaded. I also get blurred vision, when high and low, sometimes I can't tell which way bloods have gone just based on how I feel. I have tested sometimes and then the results are in black and white, other times I just think about what and when I last ate and base my actions on that. I know 3.5 isn't that low, but I drive for my job so have to be very cautious. I also have a job where meal breaks can be hit and miss, plus traffic can really hinder me, especially with op stack at the moment. But on the plus side I manage my own diary for the most part, it's just when unexpected things arise that it gets more difficult. I am low carbing, but do also have naughty days. Look forward to hearing back from you.
I don't drive if I feel 'off' I check my bloods if I can, and if I can't then I eat something or have a cup of tea with milk, wouldn't take any risks.
My fasting readings are 6-8 usually.

 

[AndBreathe]

Hi, tends to be if I go 5 hrs or more, hit 3.5 as my lowest, generally feel a bit shaky and hungry, little bit lightheaded. I also get blurred vision, when high and low, sometimes I can't tell which way bloods have gone just based on how I feel. I have tested sometimes and then the results are in black and white, other times I just think about what and when I last ate and base my actions on that. I know 3.5 isn't that low, but I drive for my job so have to be very cautious. I also have a job where meal breaks can be hit and miss, plus traffic can really hinder me, especially with op stack at the moment. But on the plus side I manage my own diary for the most part, it's just when unexpected things arise that it gets more difficult. I am low carbing, but do also have naughty days. Look forward to hearing back from you.
I don't drive if I feel 'off' I check my bloods if I can, and if I can't then I eat something or have a cup of tea with milk, wouldn't take any risks.
My fasting readings are 6-8 usually.

Th reason I asked about your levels is that many folks find that when their bloods are moderating, they can have hypo feeling when they're higher than normally associated with hypo, but clearly 3.5 is under the magically discussed 4 for the floor.

I was diagnosed in October 2013 (stats in my signature), and managed to avoid medication to date. I have 3s daily, indeed several times a day, but it just seems to be where I now run - in my own little set of blood level train tracks. Unless there's something else going on (like increased stress of being generally off-colour), I feel absolutely fine down to c3.2, and lower, into the 2s, I just generally feel hungry. To be honest, if I'm that low, it will generally be some time since I've eaten, so just have my next meal, or if I can't wait long enough, like you , I have a cup of tea with some milk, just to lift me a little, gently, so that I can still comfortably have my next meal at it's due time, without overloading on cabs, calories, bulk or whatever. It's a strategy that works well for me.

I usually carry a small (28gr by weight) pack of salted peanuts in each of my handbags, which can be handy for taking the edge off any of those "need to eat a table leg" moments, without a big carb hit, and no chance of them going off, even in hot weather. They do look a bit battered most of the time, but in that moment, I'd be happy enough to eat them and feel safe.

I do drive, although not for my living, and you are right to be mindful of how you feel around driving

It sounds like it might be time to think about paring your Metformin back a bit. As you probably understand already, Metformin doesn't have a major impact on our blood scores - the major wins are helping with suppressing the appetite and aiding insulin resistance, but your weight loss is very likely to have helped any insulin resistance in itself, by reducing any meaningful visceral fat you did or do carry.

Finally, in this monologue, it is my absolutely firm belief that many, many non-diabetics regularly have blood sugar levels in the 3s, and feel absolutely fine. They have no idea because they simply don't test. Why ever would they?

I don't think the numbers spook you, and that's excellent, I'm assessing it's the shaky, rough feelings you understandably don't like? But, just for completeness, please don't be spooked by the low numbers. Personally, I tend to view those numbers very positively, as my body coping well with what's being fed into it.

I think if you are up front with your GP about the low readings, when discussing your meds, I think it would be reasonable to expect him to continue to prescribe strips for you, at least until you are stabilised on lower medication levels. If you're not testing, how would you (and he/she) know if the strategy is being successful, and not putting things into reverse, and degrading your condition.

Very well done on your levels and weight loss.

(p.s. - If you have read any of Professor Taylor (who created the ND/NP)'s work, you may recall he states that the significant level of weight loss is more important than the route to the weight loss.)

 

[RobOwen]

Just back after 10 days away in the caravan. Plenty of barbequed meat & salads with mayo. Some sauted potatoes too. G&T's and wine featured more than normal as well and the weight this morning was...

drum roll....

The same as the day I went away! Yay! Result.

Monitored BG readings while away and had some great 4's but also some slightly higher readings that baffled me, but I wasn't drinking as much fluid per day as usual. One day's high of 9.7 was attributed to a piece of rasperry & coconut slice - seems potato doesn't spike me but sugary, sweet, yummy things do! No surprise there then

 

[brettsza]

Just back after 10 days away in the caravan. Plenty of barbequed meat & salads with mayo. Some sauted potatoes too. G&T's and wine featured more than normal as well and the weight this morning was...

drum roll....

The same as the day I went away! Yay! Result.

Monitored BG readings while away and had some great 4's but also some slightly higher readings that baffled me, but I wasn't drinking as much fluid per day as usual. One day's high of 9.7 was attributed to a piece of rasperry & coconut slice - seems potato doesn't spike me but sugary, sweet, yummy things do! No surprise there then

Great News Rob

Potatoes dont make a massive difference to me too anymore, I have been keeping a close eye on my eating and testing but lately getting a bit relaxed on my testing regime, I dont skip my fasting but I sometimes skip pre and post meals.

 

[brettsza]

End of week 12

I lost half a kilo, i actually did loose more than 1 kilo till 2 days ago compared to last week but then I had a little carbs again so overall its half a kilo in this week.
BG's still behaving, I dont see more than 6.6 or 6.7 even after a very high carb meal at 1 hour, What i have noticed is I normally dont see too many 4's but if I have something sweet (I had strawberry mousse the other day) I went to 4.2 after 2 hours. I started at about 5 and had it with dinner. I dont know may be the I get more insulin to deal with high sugar or something, I dont know but a1c will be interesting next time.

 

[andcol]

a pound up and down is neither here or there. I vary by as much as 3 lbs during different times of the day.

 

[Brunneria]

End of week 12

I lost half a kilo, i actually did loose more than 1 kilo till 2 days ago compared to last week but then I had a little carbs again so overall its half a kilo in this week.
BG's still behaving, I dont see more than 6.6 or 6.7 even after a very high carb meal at 1 hour, What i have noticed is I normally dont see too many 4's but if I have something sweet (I had strawberry mousse the other day) I went to 4.2 after 2 hours. I started at about 5 and had it with dinner. I dont know may be the I get more insulin to deal with high sugar or something, I dont know but a1c will be interesting next time.

@brettsza

You may find this thread interesting.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...orum-section-on-reactive-hypoglycaemia.65454/

If you are experiencing bg levels that are lower after eating than before, then you may be experiencing RH. Which would also explain your tendency to gain weight so easily - because extra insulin makes it easier to gain.

Obviously, i'm not trying to diagnose you, just giving you a bit of info that may resonate with you.

 

[brettsza]

@brettsza

You may find this thread interesting.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...orum-section-on-reactive-hypoglycaemia.65454/

If you are experiencing bg levels that are lower after eating than before, then you may be experiencing RH. Which would also explain your tendency to gain weight so easily - because extra insulin makes it easier to gain.

Obviously, i'm not trying to diagnose you, just giving you a bit of info that may resonate with you.

Hi Brunneria

I only have lower bg's that where I began when I have something real sweet like the mouse I had or cake, if i eat salad I am higher than where I started.