Carb flu - how to get past it?

[ButtterflyLady]

I'm sticking to eating under 100 grams of carbs per day and yesterday I had 78 grams. My mum is not ignorant about diabetes and she has been with me to the DESMOND course a year ago. I am not that keen on going on insulin as I do not want to gain back the weight that I've lost. I also have a ketone testing kit and every test for ketones has turned up with no ketones.

Your mum thinks you should stop testing for a week. I'm sorry but that is dangerous advice for someone with very high BGs and suggests to me a lack of knowledge about the short and long term risks of high BGs.

You may not be keen on insulin but what's the alternative? Your BG levels are making you ill and within a short time I believe you will start to show signs of complications like pain, tingling and burning in your feet, and damage to your eyes and kidneys. It makes me sad to see someone so young heading down this path, when it is completely avoidable. Insulin does not have to cause weight gain, as explained in this short article here:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/15478720.php

Changing your diet for more than a day is the best way to get your BGs down into the safe zone, but if that's not likely or possible, then the only alternative is insulin. Which can be taken without causing weight gain. Do you have any other objections to insulin?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I am on sr-metformin 2 x 500mg twice daily, gliclazide 2 x 80mg twice daily, invokana 1 x 300mg daily. I do have testing strips and able to get more. yesterday my mum suggested to me that I should stop testing for a week as knowing what my blood sugar levels are is making me feel angry and frustrated.

I have been thinking some more about these points.

You are worried about weight gain on insulin but are you aware that gliclazide and invokana can also cause weight gain, and they carry significant side effects and risks of serious illness? I think insulin, taken in the right way, is safer and less likely to cause weight gain. There is info about the drugs you are taking here:

Gliclazide:
"Can cause hypos. Causes hunger and weight gain May cause reversible beta cell burnout with prolonged use. Least heart attack risk of this class of drugs."

Invokana:
"Increases stroke and heart attack when started, raises risk of acute kidney injury, causes dangerously low blood pressure, low potassium. May raise risk of liver damage, breast and bladder cancers. Too new for all side effects to be apparent."

Source: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/17977284.php

And more detailed info about these drugs is here:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/25311847.php
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/36474059.php

Your mum thinks that your anger and frustration are caused by knowing about your blood sugar levels. Aside from the short term danger of stopping testing (you could get ketoacidosis and not know it), I think you need to know what your BGs are so you will feel motivated to get them down. But what I also want to say is that the real cause of your anger and frustration is likely to be your high BGs. I imagine you feel dreadful - foggy brain, fatigued, low mood, irritable, and I would be surprised if you didn't have some bladder, bowel and chronic skin rash issues too.

So, in addition to long term complications like blindness, amputation, and kidney failure, high BGs are making you feel awful in the here and now. You might not be fully aware of this because the symptoms have been there a long time and have crept up on you slowly. The only ways to get your BGs down into the healthy range, where you would feel so much better, are to seriously cut out carbs, or go on insulin. And based on your reported food choices, I don't believe you are willing to seriously cut out carbs at the moment.

I suggest you discuss with your doctor whether the benefits of your current meds are worth the risks, and also what the benefits and risks of insulin are. Please remember that the way to avoid weight gain on insulin is to be on both long acting and short acting insulin and adjust the dose of short acting for each meal according to the carbs you intend to eat. This is known as basal/bolus multiple daily injections with carb counting.

(If your doctor says insulin causes weight gain, they might not understand this method, and be thinking of a fixed dose method, which does not work as well, according to what I've read at Blood Sugar 101 and on this forum).

 

[akindrat18]

Your mum thinks you should stop testing for a week. I'm sorry but that is dangerous advice for someone with very high BGs and suggests to me a lack of knowledge about the short and long term risks of high BGs.

You may not be keen on insulin but what's the alternative? Your BG levels are making you ill and within a short time I believe you will start to show signs of complications like pain, tingling and burning in your feet, and damage to your eyes and kidneys. It makes me sad to see someone so young heading down this path, when it is completely avoidable. Insulin does not have to cause weight gain, as explained in this short article here:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/15478720.php

Changing your diet for more than a day is the best way to get your BGs down into the safe zone, but if that's not likely or possible, then the only alternative is insulin. Which can be taken without causing weight gain. Do you have any other objections to insulin?

I have been thinking some more about these points.

You are worried about weight gain on insulin but are you aware that gliclazide and invokana can also cause weight gain, and they carry significant side effects and risks of serious illness? I think insulin, taken in the right way, is safer and less likely to cause weight gain. There is info about the drugs you are taking here:

Gliclazide:
"Can cause hypos. Causes hunger and weight gain May cause reversible beta cell burnout with prolonged use. Least heart attack risk of this class of drugs."

Invokana:
"Increases stroke and heart attack when started, raises risk of acute kidney injury, causes dangerously low blood pressure, low potassium. May raise risk of liver damage, breast and bladder cancers. Too new for all side effects to be apparent."

Source: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/17977284.php

And more detailed info about these drugs is here:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/25311847.php
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/36474059.php

Your mum thinks that your anger and frustration are caused by knowing about your blood sugar levels. Aside from the short term danger of stopping testing (you could get ketoacidosis and not know it), I think you need to know what your BGs are so you will feel motivated to get them down. But what I also want to say is that the real cause of your anger and frustration is likely to be your high BGs. I imagine you feel dreadful - foggy brain, fatigued, low mood, irritable, and I would be surprised if you didn't have some bladder, bowel and chronic skin rash issues too.

So, in addition to long term complications like blindness, amputation, and kidney failure, high BGs are making you feel awful in the here and now. You might not be fully aware of this because the symptoms have been there a long time and have crept up on you slowly. The only ways to get your BGs down into the healthy range, where you would feel so much better, are to seriously cut out carbs, or go on insulin. And based on your reported food choices, I don't believe you are willing to seriously cut out carbs at the moment.

I suggest you discuss with your doctor whether the benefits of your current meds are worth the risks, and also what the benefits and risks of insulin are. Please remember that the way to avoid weight gain on insulin is to be on both long acting and short acting insulin and adjust the dose of short acting for each meal according to the carbs you intend to eat. This is known as basal/bolus multiple daily injections with carb counting.

(If your doctor says insulin causes weight gain, they might not understand this method, and be thinking of a fixed dose method, which does not work as well, according to what I've read at Blood Sugar 101 and on this forum).

@CatLadyNZ both my parents are unaware about the short and long term complications of prolonged high blood sugar levels and when I try to talk them about it, they hardly listen to me. At the moment I do not have any burning or tingling sensations in my feet or have skin rashes. foggy brain, low mood and lack of energy. However, I do suffer from thrush, abdominal pain that comes and goes, bloating and trapped wind.

I have no other objections to insulin as I don't have a fear of injecting myself after using lixisenatide a few months ago. I saw a dietician on Tuesday and she's advised that I should find a happy medium of how many carbs I should have per meal and she said to aim for 60 or 70 grams per meal, as I've told her what I eat and she says that I'm upsetting my blood sugar levels by having high carb dinner meals (lasagne, chips and garlic bread or curry with rice, chips and naan bread) most days and no or low carb dinner meals (eggs, bacon and sausages). I've been advised that my meals should consist of 1/2 veg or salad with 1/4 protein from meat, fish or eggs and 1/4 starchy carbs from either pasta, rice or bread. I've also been told by the dietician to get the carbs and cals book to portion control how many carbs I am having per meal.

Yesterday, I met with the nurse to discuss my blood tests and I felt disgusted with myself as my Hba1c has doubled from being 7.8% (9.8 mmol/L) in May to now being at 13.6% (19.0 mmol/L). Also my total cholesterol has come down from 5.9 in May to 4.7 now. Also I got told that I have a low platelet count of 53 and discussed my medication options as I could go on either byetta or insulin. but it would be up to the diabetes nurse, not my doctor to change my medication and will have to wait until next my appointment on Wednesday.

I have a few questions about insulin injections as I was led to believe that it was one injection with every meal, but after doing some reading I now realize that their are a lot of different insulin regimens.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Not entirely sure about that many carbs, personally I'd be going for less, but I reckon she was on the money saying above all be consistent, as then you will maintain a level, and not be wildly shooting up and down.

I wouldn't touch pasta, bread, or rice if I was you.
And lasagne, chips, and garlic bread manages to contain most of those in one meal, and even adds potato, as does curry with rice, chips and naan bread.

Ever looked at the Newcastle Diet?
It would be an excellent choice at the moment.

 

[GeoffersTaylor]

I've just read all this thread and I'm staggered. Sorry to be so blunt but ...

Dude, do you realise that you're going to die a long, slow and painful death unless you get a handle on this? I'm not going to give you suggestions about what to eat or what to avoid because you're simply ignoring advice and you're not dealing with your diabetes. And it's going to kill you. Get that? It's going to kill you.

Quit making excuses. Quit asking for help and then ignoring it. Pick a method (insulin and carb counting, LCHF, whatever) and stick to it. Make it work. Or you will die a lot sooner than you should. That's all there is to it.

Your call.

 

[Celeriac]

When I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes in 2008, my HbA1c was 13.0% the same as you. It's now usually under 6%. So maybe you'll listen to me. I've been lucky, because the only permanent symptom I have that hasn't gone away, is some loss of feeling in the soles of my feet. But I work really hard to manage my diabetes, without insulin.

You need to drum it into yourself and your parents that you have virtually zero tolerance for carbohydrates. If you had a gluten intolerance or a peanut allergy, would you eat peanuts or bread ? Would your parents feed you them ? Your behaviour is self-destructive. That's why you need to talk to a counsellor - you should be able to get one free of charge.

Your parents shouldn't have to sneak around in their own house to eat whatever they want, because YOU should have the willpower not to eat junk which you KNOW is bad for you. Just don't buy their treats for them.

If it were me, I would re-negotiate keep, so that it makes a fair contribution to utilities etc but leave me enough that I buy my own food and cook it myself. If needs be, you could get a small fridge for your room. Argos and Amazon for example, have them for under £100 and you can get HP on benefits. Cook and eat your meals when it suits YOUR routine.

www.mysupermarket.co.uk will show you offers at supermarkets in your town. You need to ditch the cereals, bread, pasta, grains, potatoes, root veg, rice, breaded mushrooms, fishcakes etc. All processed food, basically. Beer, too.

Buy real food. ASDA sells fish with herb butter of choice at the fish counter. Ask for a cook-in bag. Instructions are printed on it. Simple. You need to be eating very little fruit (too sweet) but lots of leafy veg to give you the vitamins and minerals to help your body - and it needs it - and water. Some small fridges have ice boxes. NO fish fingers or chips but you can shove reduced price yellow stickered steaks in there. Lidl (probably Aldi too) has cheese, Greek-style yogurt, lamb chops, smoked mackerel, tinned fish- Poundland has tinned salmon.

Olive oil is expensive but you can get cheap lard and dripping. Vegetable oil is a definite no.

Nothing more than 10g carbs per 100g

Snacks - pork scratchings, nuts, more than 70% cocoa chocolate and instead of ice cream you can scoff a tub of Rodda clotted cream. If you are crawling up the walls for crisps, go to a supermarket and get one of the 15g organic toddler snacks some of which are less carby and a smaller portion.

If I can do it, you can.

 

[purplepenguin]

@Celeriac this is great advice. which I will also be taking on board, especially about the snack thing. I am new to LCHF and this advice has helped me to keep things interesting. Thank you

 

[ButtterflyLady]

@CatLadyNZ
...discussed my medication options as I could go on either byetta or insulin. but it would be up to the diabetes nurse, not my doctor to change my medication and will have to wait until next my appointment on Wednesday.

I have a few questions about insulin injections as I was led to believe that it was one injection with every meal, but after doing some reading I now realize that their are a lot of different insulin regimens.

There is information about Byetta at the link I posted in my previous post but I will copy the summary of it here:

"Causes growth of abnormal alpha and beta cells in pancreas growing a huge mass of abnormal cells that is associated with the growth of precancerous pancreatic adenomas (tumors). Vomiting. Nausea. Chills. Headache. Weakness. Blood pressure fluctuations. Tooth pain. Constipation. Nasal congestion. Doubles risk of pancreatitis." Source: http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/17977284.php

So it can cause tumours which can become cancerous.

Detailed info about this here:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/18538438.php

I've posted it before, but if you want to know about insulin regimens for T2, here is some info:
http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/15478720.php

If you read nothing else, this short article explains why researchers found that insulin is better at reducing blood sugar than the other drugs you have tried or are being offered:
http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.co.nz/2008/05/insulin-right-after-diagnosis.html

Most people on this forum say that basal/bolus insulin with carb counting gives them the best control of their blood sugars, and this is backed up by the research cited in the above articles. Your nurse may not understand this or want to put enough time into helping you, so she may suggest a different regimen, which according to the above links and what people say on this forum, is unlikely to reduce your blood sugars enough. It's your body and your future so my advice is do your own reading about it.

 

[Mike d]

Yesterday, I met with the nurse to discuss my blood tests and I felt disgusted with myself as my Hba1c has doubled from being 7.8% (9.8 mmol/L) in May to now being at 13.6% (19.0 mmol/L).

What were you doing / eating up to the May result? You're playing with fire mate.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Yep
really with everyone else now.

What's your choice?

Knuckle down, stop eating ****, or accept the complications that will lead to a bad outcome?
Low carb, low calorie, short term pain, but only in the fact you'll be hungry short term, or long term pain, as in phantom limbs?

You know you have a choice, make the right one.

 

[Mike d]

I've just read all this thread and I'm staggered. Sorry to be so blunt but ...

Dude, do you realise that you're going to die a long, slow and painful death unless you get a handle on this? I'm not going to give you suggestions about what to eat or what to avoid because you're simply ignoring advice and you're not dealing with your diabetes. And it's going to kill you. Get that? It's going to kill you.

Quit making excuses. Quit asking for help and then ignoring it. Pick a method (insulin and carb counting, LCHF, whatever) and stick to it. Make it work. Or you will die a lot sooner than you should. That's all there is to it.

Your call.

Agreed. Excuses are never a substitute for action. EVER !!

 

[zand]

@akindrat18 You already know that I think you need really good counselling.

In the meantime have a look at the pictures in these links:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...images-reveal-diabetes-feet-just-10-DAYS.html

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-and-amputation.html

Have a search around the net and find the most distressing diabetes caused problems and print out the pictures and put them up where you can see them. If you can't look after yourself and your diet now, you certainly won't be able to manage it in the future, unless you act right now. Are carbs really such an attractive option? Try eating some while looking at pictures of what you will look like in the future. Which do you prefer to have...a potato or a toe? You will see that it's not just a food craving or weakness, it's self harming. Show your parents. Make them understand. You have studied psychology at uni I believe? Then you should be able to get through to them, and yourself.

You have been diabetic for 3 years, many of the people advising you have been diabetic for less than that, please don't let this situation drift any longer.

When I first started chatting to you I was impressed by you, I really thought you would do it. I hope you do, I don't want you to be another statistic. There are very many diabetics who haven't found this forum. They don't do the right things simply because they don't know of them. Please don't waste all the good advice that has been given to you. Life and health is precious.

I'm leaving your threads now. I have said all I have to say on the subject and the rest is up to you.

Good luck for the future.

 

[akindrat18]

What were you doing / eating up to the May result? You're playing with fire mate.

@Mike D I was at university shopping for myself only. Usually went to aldi twice a month or when I had a hospital appointment as it was opposite the hospital. I was eating chicken, eggs, bacon, sweet potato, leafy vegetables, salads and zero carb rice and pasta from Holland and Barrets. If I wasn't up to cooking I would either go to sainsburys or Morrison's and grab some deli meats.

@akindrat18 You already know that I think you need really good counselling.

In the meantime have a look at the pictures in these links:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...images-reveal-diabetes-feet-just-10-DAYS.html

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-and-amputation.html

Have a search around the net and find the most distressing diabetes caused problems and print out the pictures and put them up where you can see them. If you can't look after yourself and your diet now, you certainly won't be able to manage it in the future, unless you act right now. Are carbs really such an attractive option? Try eating some while looking at pictures of what you will look like in the future. Which do you prefer to have...a potato or a toe? You will see that it's not just a food craving or weakness, it's self harming. Show your parents. Make them understand. You have studied psychology at uni I believe? Then you should be able to get through to them, and yourself.

You have been diabetic for 3 years, many of the people advising you have been diabetic for less than that, please don't let this situation drift any longer.

When I first started chatting to you I was impressed by you, I really thought you would do it. I hope you do, I don't want you to be another statistic. There are very many diabetics who haven't found this forum. They don't do the right things simply because they don't know of them. Please don't waste all the good advice that has been given to you. Life and health is precious.

I'm leaving your threads now. I have said all I have to say on the subject and the rest is up to you.

Good luck for the future.

@zand I've just spent a weekend away at my nans and I've got my blood sugars down to the low teens instead of in the high twenties or thirties. The meals that I've had for the past few days have been bacon and eggs for breakfast, a meat and fish salad for lunch and for dinner pork ribs with chicken drumsticks and a Sunday roast that included carrot and swede mash, cauliflower and broccoli gratin, chicken, pigs in blankets and lots of kale and cabbage. My nan knows so much more about diabetes than my parents do as my parents don't listen.

And since being back with my parents this afternoon, I've just had fish and veg, with afters being roddas clotted cream with sugar free jelly and what was left of some pistachio nuts. My mum doesn't want me to buy the carbs and cals book, but she's ok with me buying a £60 parka. She thinks that what she cooks is doing me good with my weight as I currently weigh 19 stone 10 pounds. I am considering the possibility of moving in with my nan as she will go out shopping and buy in low carb foods when ever I stay at her place.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

@Mike D I was at university shopping for myself only. Usually went to aldi twice a month or when I had a hospital appointment as it was opposite the hospital. I was eating chicken, eggs, bacon, sweet potato, leafy vegetables, salads and zero carb rice and pasta from Holland and Barrets. If I wasn't up to cooking I would either go to sainsburys or Morrison's and grab some deli meats.



@zand I've just spent a weekend away at my nans and I've got my blood sugars down to the low teens instead of in the high twenties or thirties. The meals that I've had for the past few days have been bacon and eggs for breakfast, a meat and fish salad for lunch and for dinner pork ribs with chicken drumsticks and a Sunday roast that included carrot and swede mash, cauliflower and broccoli gratin, chicken, pigs in blankets and lots of kale and cabbage. My nan knows so much more about diabetes than my parents do as my parents don't listen.

And since being back with my parents this afternoon, I've just had fish and veg, with afters being roddas clotted cream with sugar free jelly and what was left of some pistachio nuts. My mum doesn't want me to buy the carbs and cals book, but she's ok with me buying a £60 parka. She thinks that what she cooks is doing me good with my weight as I currently weigh 19 stone 10 pounds. I am considering the possibility of moving in with my nan as she will go out shopping and buy in low carb foods when ever I stay at her place.

That's a great idea. I would move in with nan if I were you.

 

[Mike d]

My nan knows so much more about diabetes than my parents

Well she might, but it begs the question why don't you? Those changes are OK but you need to do more. Tough love and all that

 

[ickihun]

Akindrat18 I've been there done it and worn the t-shirt. I get good control through small portions and 3 routine meals a day and enjoyable daily exercise. Then I get burnout and have to start again BUT start again I do. Here I am again in the middle of fighting for good reliable sugar levels amongs non-diabetics on junk food.
YOU CAN DO THIS. I HAVE NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT YOUR MORE THAN CAPABLE. Discipline yourself. YOU HAVE THE POWER TO TURN THIS AROUND. DO IT.

 

[akindrat18]

Well she might, but it begs the question why don't you? Those changes are OK but you need to do more. Tough love and all that

What other changes should I do then. I've cut out all sugary foods, reduced my fruit intake to zero, upped my protein intake, upped my veg intake and I'm slowly weaning myself of pasta, rice, potatoes and cereals.

 

[SunnyExpat]

That's a lot of food.

LCHF is good, but, certainly for me, excess still keeps, or piles the weight back on.
Maybe some posters can eat a lot of extra calories as fat, but I'm not one of them.
I need to be on the ball to maintain weight, and below my target to lose weight.

Also, I personally have decided to cut right down on saturated fat, and replaced it with unsaturated.

 

[ickihun]

Akindrat18 I've just been told I no longer have fatty liver. I'm eating saturated and unsaturated fat. Lchf is working for me. I now weight 123.45kgs and for a girl thats heavy. Since last tuesday I've lost 1.15kgs. I'm so happy and excited. Where will this lchf diet take me?... well worth stopping the rubbish in my diet and replacing it with fat (double cream and butter in my coffees, cheese - most cheeses, fatty meats including bacon, beef burgers and seafood, fish of most kinds. BUT NO BREAD, POTATO/OR CHIPS AND DEFINITELY NO CAKES/BISCUITS.
It seems odd but it will fill you up. It's great knowing I can have pork scratchings and double cream and have a health liver.

 

[alangarry]

My technique has been to have at hand plenty of EASILY ACCESSIBLE lo-carb snacky stuff. My favourites are:

Sliced Ham
Sliced Turkey
Pepperami
Boiled Eggs
Cheese (load so different types - mozerella, brie, cheddar...)

It was/still is the first week that is the hardest for me. I have to have PLENTY of that stuff at hand so that I don't cave and grab a carb food!

Good work on the weight loss!

Re: your broken meter - just write a nice, polite e-mail to the manufacturers. Tell then you have a prescription specifically for "their brand of test strips", and they'll be more than happy to send you a free meter. I've done this countless times!

If you're 18, I was that age when I was diagnosed too (I'm now 37), and I was a similar weight to you to (20st - I'm now 16st). It does get easier, mate, I promise. If you're exercising 3 times a week, and lo-carbing, I can promise you - the weight will FALL off, and your BG will come right down.

Re: your exercise - kick boxing is a fantastic way to get active. The social side of it means that you don't see exercise as a chore. I wouldn't bother with gyms if I were you. Going to the gym regularly is a grind. You'll get on brilliantly with kick boxing!

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the importance of drinking plain old water! It's the best thing in the world! Some people consider T2 diabetes "chronic dehydration", and getting plenty of water into you is a great way to help stabilise your BG.

If you're not already, you want to be drinking at least 2L of water a day (I aim for a minimum of 3L a day). If you don't "like" water, you'll just have to get used to it! Do it for 2 weeks and I promise, you'll feel so much better.

If you haven't already, read Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Atkins-New-Diet-Revolution-No-hunger/dp/0091889480

Honestly - this book changed my life for the better.

Good luck to you mate. I don't come here too often - but feel free to PM me and I'll get back to you when I can.

Plain old water is good, I also use a couple of neat frozen vimto light cubes in my water for a refreshing change, vimto light as no sugar and no carbs, I am in my first week of being diagnosed, I eat grilled bacon,cheese,tomtoes,carrots,eggs,full salads with a small portion of mayo 0.5g of carbs, last night meal was egg omelette with chicken, mushrooms, peas and onions. just keep watching your carbs, check ingredients on all labels, my carbs have come down fast and its all down to the kind friendly family we have on here, their info is great.