Hit an obsticle...

[Juwelz]

Hi, new on the board and wondering if those of you who have been on the Newcastle Diet may be able to advise me. I have been on the diet for just over 2 weeks now and have seen my fasting blood glucose numbers drop considerably but I think that I am suffering from Dawn Phenomenon. If I test before I go to bed I can be anything from aproximately 7 - 5mmols, if I test again at around 4am it is aproximately 4.6 - 5.6mmols but by the time I get up at 7 - 8am it will be around 7 - 8 + mmols. I'm supposing that this is not new for me but I have just never noticed as I have not tested so much as I have in the past few weeks for some time.

Problem is I don't know what this means, does it mean that the diet will not work for me (in terms of reversal), or just that it may take longer, I have another 5 weeks. I was wondering, has anyone that the diet has worked for had problems with the Dawn Phenomenon? I would love to know your experiences? Thank you

 

[andcol]

I do not understand, how can your fasting blood glucose numbers drop considerably but by the time I get up at 7 - 8am it will be around 7 - 8 + mmols

These are contradictory.

 

[Clivethedrive]

I do not understand, how can your fasting blood glucose numbers drop considerably but by the time I get up at 7 - 8am it will be around 7 - 8 + mmols

These are contradictory.

Hi , its our liver doing it's job, releasing glucose into the blood stream ready for the day's activities.from experience...it takes months before the liver learns to adjust to the new eating/ exercise/ requirements.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Hi, new on the board and wondering if those of you who have been on the Newcastle Diet may be able to advise me. I have been on the diet for just over 2 weeks now and have seen my fasting blood glucose numbers drop considerably but I think that I am suffering from Dawn Phenomenon. If I test before I go to bed I can be anything from aproximately 7 - 5mmols, if I test again at around 4am it is aproximately 4.6 - 5.6mmols but by the time I get up at 7 - 8am it will be around 7 - 8 + mmols. I'm supposing that this is not new for me but I have just never noticed as I have not tested so much as I have in the past few weeks for some time.

Problem is I don't know what this means, does it mean that the diet will not work for me (in terms of reversal), or just that it may take longer, I have another 5 weeks. I was wondering, has anyone that the diet has worked for had problems with the Dawn Phenomenon? I would love to know your experiences? Thank you

Are you setting am alarm for 4am so you can test?

Either way, it's normal.
You are getting up at 4, your body thinks you're starting the day, so releases some of your glucose store, you then fool it by going back to bed.

As clivethedrive says, it takes weeks before your body levels out on a steady diet.

As to your question about the results of the diet, it'll always help, simply losing the weight, so stick at it, but maybe test less again.
After three weeks you know the food is ok, and nothing else is going to change apart from your body, so you won't be seeing any spikes.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi,

What I find odd is that you seem to drop considerably between bedtime and 4am before going back up again. In my experience it is quite unusual to drop so much between bedtime and 4am when we are asleep.

I've never done a low calorie diet like the ND so maybe it's different for those that do.

 

[Juwelz]

Thanks for your replies.

SweetLucie, Clivethedrive, I am aware of what Dawn Phenomenon is but it is scuppering my numbers! ;0) I actually do not know that much about it in terms of stopping it or if it will disappear after a while if I keep to my regime (makes sense that my body needs time to adjust), that's why I was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same problem and still come through.

Andrew, I do not think that my statements were contradictory as they were made in different sentences. I have seen my numbers drop considerably as when I started, around 3 weeks ago, it was not unknown for me to have almost constant (when I did test) readings in the 20's, so I would say that that was a considerable change to be now seeing 4 - 5 or 7 - 8mmols.

SunnyExpat, my alarm clock is called Billy, he's my cat and demands to go out at around 4 am on the dot pretty much every morning, so I test while I'm up and that's how I noticed. I am testing a lot mornings and before and after every meal but this is because I'm still on very small amounts of insulin (need to be able to gauge when I can come off completely) and scared of hypos, I had a really bad one the night before I started this diet, that is one of the reasons that spurred me on to do this, I am fed up of the ups and downs of this disease, if I can't reverse it I must get it under control so I'm not about to stop now.

Bluetit1802, sorry not sure if that read 7.5mmols, I gave that round the wrong way but it ranges approximately 5 to 7mmols before bed....not always but I would say this is average at the moment. Not sure that this is such a drop?

 

[Bluetit1802]

Thanks for your replies.



Bluetit1802, sorry not sure if that read 7.5mmols, I gave that round the wrong way but it ranges approximately 5 to 7mmols before bed....not always but I would say this is average at the moment. Not sure that this is such a drop?

Sorry, I hadn't realised you were taking insulin. Ignore my comment as I know nothing about insulin.

 

[photognut]

If its any help, I'm a type 2. Here is what happened to my glucose levels Before bed and morning while restricting myself to 500-600 cal low carb diet of fresh organic food. I also ceased the Metformin these readings are purely the results from diet.

Day AM PM
1 - 10.8 - 9.4
2 - 9.7 - 8.1
3 - 8 - 8.4
4 - 7.8 - 7
5 - 7.1 - 6.8
6 - 7.6 - 7.1
7 - 7.0 - 7.2
8- 7.7 - 7.2
9 - 7.4 - 7.7
10 - 7.0 - 7.7
11 - 6.7 - 8.5
12 - 6.5 - 7.5
13 - 6.8 - 7.1
14 - 7.4 - 7.2
15 - 6.9 - 7.1
16 - 6.4 - 7.9
17 - 6.5 - 6.1
18 - 6.3 - 7.1
19 - 6.2 - 7.4
20 - 7.2 - 6.9
it wasn't until day 29 that my AM readings were lower than PM.
the AM range stabilised between 5.1 & 6.3. The PM reading never exceeded 6.9 after day 29. I could also account for slight elevations if I was feeling unwell, disturbed sleep, and menstrual cycle would account for the 6 range.

 

[SunnyExpat]

The insulin will make a difference.
I've never seen the ND suggested for these circumstances.
As such you need to do this with the guidance of your medical team, and need to ensure you do not (possibly) get into a situation where you drive your BG too low.
As you say, testing is very important.

 

[Juwelz]

photognut, thanks so much for that, it's interesting to see other peoples results and know that vast and continuous improvements are not always seen straight away. I know that the fact that I take insulin makes a difference but it gives me hope.

SunnyExpat, I was aware that most (if not all) of the people that I've seen posting on the board regarding the ND are coming from either Metformin (or similar) or diet only, but I have read of others that were on insulin additionally Professor Taylor does give guidelines (minute amounts) for those (T2’s) on insulin. Some came off completely from the beginning, I did not feel confident to do that but I continue to be cautious, which is why I test.

My numbers were not the best for some time so I figure that it will take a while to see the consistent results that I want again. I am pleased with the reductions so far though and will persevere and see what can be achieved.

Thanks for your input everyone.

 

[andcol]

are you on long acting insulin? If so you will be going low in the night and your liver will have to dump glucose. You need to talk to your doctor as you may need to adjust the insulin dose or stop it now that your levels are in the 6-8 range. Well done for the success so far - going from 20s to 6/7 is fantastic. I am sure if you continue you will improve further.

 

[Juwelz]

Yes, I am still on long acting insulin, I halved it when I started but haven't been sure when to stop altogether, I hoped it might have become more apparent by now. I haven't discussed it with my doctor so far as they are not very encouraging and I believe that I know the response. I had made up my mind, was going to do it anyway and could do without the negative response to put doubt in my mind, but actually as I have had such a good start I feel happier discussing it with them. I can but try. Thank you for your input and encouragement.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Long acting insulin is intended to manage fasting BG, and short acting is intended to manage post-meal spikes. So theoretically, your long acting insulin should be helping lower your FBG, along with your diet. I have no idea how much of it you would need with your current diet and BG goals. Perhaps a T1 like @Spiker or @noblehead might have some ideas?

 

[Spiker]

I don't know much about the Newcastle Diet or T2s on insulin, but I will go with @Andrew Colvin in suggesting maybe the sharply reduced calorie intake of the ND is causing an overnight hypo, leading to a liver glycogen dump, and resulting 'rebound' high BG. That's the only way I can make sense of it.

Maybe try following Prof Taylor's protocol and drop the insulin entirely? Then monitor BG and if it normalises, there's your answer.

 

[Juwelz]

Thanks , CatLadyNZ,

Spiker, yes, I think that I am going to have to give it a try and see.

I had a thought last night actually, I remembered that Professor Taylor had talked about those diabetics who have bariatric surgery, they have to go on a special diet beforehand, he speculated that the (diabetic) change may already have occurred during this stage and before the actual surgery itself. I looked up the diet last night (it's very similar to the NC actually) what I was looking for and found was a little more information regarding those on insulin. They generally come off completely and monitor that their BSL's do not climb over a certain level (Done under medical guidance!), if this happens they may re-introduce the background insulin at half. I think this anticipates any hypos. I wish I had found this before.

I will take the plunge from today; I think that my numbers are sufficient for me to give it a try.

 

[nothing56]

Not sure if this helps. I had a much slower decrease in my fasting levels than i expected based on watching the lecture. But i think the important thing is to see the trend not the individual results.

Ignore the large drop just after the middle of the graph. This i believe is due to some bad strips. I had a TrueResults (prescribed) and a CodeFree which i was using pre the middle of the graph. The codefree was giving results often 2 points higher than the Trueresults.

You will see a rise in my fasting from low 4's to low 5's this was when i came off Metformin. (this had me worried as i was concerned that the diet was not working as well as i hoped) however you can see in the trend that the fasting readings are starting to come down again.

The best advice i can give, is do the full 8 weeks, look at your trends and if your numbers are not what you expect, try a few more weeks to see if it helps, you may well just be on the edge of your PFT which is what i think is happening with me.

After reading a lot of the old ND threads i came to the conclusion that very few people had the perfect ND experience (as related i the lecture) when it came to the numbers but eventually most ended up with good numbers by the end.

 

[andcol]

Nice graph. Your fasting numbers are looking pretty normal now.

 

[nothing56]

Nice graph. Your fasting numbers are looking pretty normal now.

Nice app BTW . I'm a coder myself so i do love it when there is already a decent app around.

I'm now more happy with those numbers after reading the old threads. I think i'm just on the threshold as some of the small experiments i have done (egg on toast) have shown rises (which i'm not overly concerned about, nothing greater than 8.9) but my numbers seem to be slow to come down to me. Which i'm attributing to still having a BMI of 33 despite losing 20kg. I'm expecting continue weight loss via LC to reduce the insulin resistance further.

 

[Juwelz]

nothing56, thanks for your post, the graph is brilliant. You've done really well, it's very encouraging.

I stopped all insulin on Friday, and as per all the instructions that I've seen I only test in the mornings now. I'm finding that quite hard as my FBS shot up to 14 on Sat morning and has been around the same since. After all that effort getting my levels down in the last three weeks, I feel like I'm starting all over again but I'm hoping that this will just be in the short term and that they will sort themselves out in the next couple of days, or even weeks. From tomorrow I will also be upping and changing the type of exercise that I do each day to a bit more intensive, maybe this will also help bring my levels down, I am still optimistic.

On the good side, I have lost over a stone since beginning the diet, I am pretty much just into my healthy weight and BMI category and this is where I would have stopped before now but if I lose another stone, that will bring me to the lower end of the standard Height/weight and BMI charts then I will assume that I have lost all possible fat stores from the right places and will 'give in' ;0) knowing that I have done all that I possibly could. Weight loss has slowed down a fair bit in the last two weeks but it's coming off steadily. So, into week number 4!