Diet window caused havoc!

[bakedalaska]

Can anyone advise please? I had T2 diagnosed on 4th Aug and was put on 2x500 Gucophage and told to lose weight.
My untreated HPci was 7.1%

I dieted assiduously and lost 13KG over six weeks. My BG dropped and dropped and I eventually came off Glucophage second week of September and my BG remained in 4's and 5's. (90 - 100). I began regular exercise. I was so happy. I then went to visit my kids in London and was persuaded to "give the diet a break" because i looked so thin. It was actually hard to do - but I took a little alcohol and had fish and chips once in 5 days. Overall I stuck to safe foods - but ate more heartily. I did lots of walking but no dedicated exercise. My BG rose a bit but not more than I would have expected given the slight indulgence.

When I returned home, depute returning to the strict diet, I was amazed to find that my BG was way up there 6.3 - 7.9 and as usual at its highest in the morning. I am still losing weight, have returned to a tough exercise regime and I am eating like a dying bird. Still right up there in the 6s. Today I made the sad decision to return to Glucophage medication - which so far has not kicked in.

Questions from any low glucose Samaritans out there! Here goes:

Has anyone else experienced this massive "kick back" after only a small window of indulgence?
How long does it take Glucophage to kick in?
How the heck do we deal with this dawn phenomenon? Today my BG was 6.7 on fasting. I exercised immediately (100 stairs) and it went up instead of down. So frustrating...

Thanks!

 

[Munkki]

Hi @bakedalaska,

I can sympathise with the first point. I was prediabetic. Then I went on a sugar free diet, then on a low carb diet and ended up being very thin. I allowed some carbs back into my diet and made sure I do not overexercise, but the carbs kept on creeping up; so did my rest days. My BG went up and I was diagnosed.

I am still trying to figure out what to do exactly. I exercise every day now and I eat a low carb diet, with 100g of carbs most days, but less when I feel very hungry. Actually, I feel quite good with a bit less carbs, as I do not have to worry too much about vegetables (I like eating insane amounts of them.) This way. so far, I have managed to maintain my weight while indulging in safe foods.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. First, don't worry about your fasting readings; they mean very little and it's just the liver doing it's job. You readings are extremely good so you have no worries on that account either. The way the body works ref blood sugar control is a lot more complex than we believe and although i'm on insulin it can take several days for me to get back to my normal dose if I binge eat on holiday etc. Metformin only ever has a small effect and that's mainly when you have excess weight. It can take some days to have any effect but don't expect anything measurable now you are slim. If you are losing more weight than is good for you, then do increase the proteins and fats rather than carbs.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi,

Your Glucophage only helps to a very limited extent, and is of more help if you are over weight as it works as an appetite suppressant, so don't expect wonders.

A lot of folk find exercising raises BS levels (I'm one of them), so after exercise you may find you are higher than you were before, but it should drop later, and will help longer term with insulin resistance..

If you need to put some weight on, perhaps you could try increasing your fats - extra cheese, cream, olive oil, mayo, FF yogurts etc. This is what I had to do when I couldn't stop losing, and it took ages to get the right balance. I didn't increase my carbs at all. I did try extra protein but that just caused an increase in my BS levels, so I cut down again. I find I am highest in the mornings if I have too much protein for the previous evening meal.

 

[bakedalaska]

Hi,

Your Glucophage only helps to a very limited extent, and is of more help if you are over weight as it works as an appetite suppressant, so don't expect wonders.

A lot of folk find exercising raises BS levels (I'm one of them), so after exercise you may find you are higher than you were before, but it should drop later, and will help longer term with insulin resistance..

If you need to put some weight on, perhaps you could try increasing your fats - extra cheese, cream, olive oil, mayo, FF yogurts etc. This is what I had to do when I couldn't stop losing, and it took ages to get the right balance. I didn't increase my carbs at all. I did try extra protein but that just caused an increase in my BS levels, so I cut down again. I find I am highest in the mornings if I have too much protein for the previous evening meal.

It's great to feel so supported. I have learned a lot about what not to expect from Glucophage. The issue with a high fasting easing is that it seems to me to be a bad starting point for the day...I think I just have to get up earlier and exercise more vigorously before breakfast. I will also try lower protein evening meal and just a small protein snack at bedtime to confuse the liver. Talking of which someone suggested a shot or two of alcohol before bed was a way of 'preoccupying' the liver from churning out early morning glucose. Ant thoughts on that.

I am also a highly stressed person with a life script that has me awake at 5:30 - 6:30 usually feeling unhappy and anxious. Nothing much I can do about this (I am in my 60s and it is the penalty of a life of recklessness). That said when I am feeling really anxious I take Clonazepan to help me relax and sleep. Anyone any experience with these ---zepan medications and BG levels.

Thanks to the three of you. I am enjoying my nightcap - a cup of marmite with olive oil fried onions, chillies and garlic and a few other spices sprinkled with sunflower seeds. Blows your head off and as far as I can see is free of any of the nasties - except marmite is probably quite salty. Hope someone likes the idea...

I wish we could get even Low Fat Yoghurt in Nigeria and I yearn for Greek Yoghurt - not available at all. Cream...mayo...OK I will look that out....

BG control is like having mercury on a polished tray...

 

[Bluetit1802]

I understand your frustration when a high fasting impacts on the rest of the day. It happens to me if I wake with a higher level than normal.

I notice your plan is to do more vigorous exercise BEFORE breakfast. This most likely will make matters worse, although your body may react differently. The exercise on an empty tummy may well push your levels up even higher as your liver will continue to work over time pushing more glucose into your blood stream to feed your muscles during the exercise. Perhaps try having breakfast as soon as you can after getting up, let it settle, then exercise.

If you are waking early in the morning feeling stressed and anxious, this may be why your fasting levels are higher than you like. Stress plays a big part in raising levels - again it is the liver producing extra glucose because of the anxiety.

Do you test before getting in to bed? If you do this, you can see if you are rising over night and by how much.

I can't comment on the Clonazepan. I am med-free, but if you are having sleepless nights, this is also another factor in raised levels.

 

[AndBreathe]

@bakedalaska - I would suggest your best bet, on returning from a trip overseas, is to give your body a couple of weeks to resettle before making any changes.

I always find that travel/jetlag (depending on which way I've gone) will disturb my bloods a bit for a couple of days, even if my diet has been pretty stable. Our bodies sometimes just get a little out of sorts with time changes (which shouldn't be meaningful in Africa), differing diets, different drinking/fluids and just emotions, like missing family, being excited at seeing family or whatever.

If you are changing too much too quickly you will have no idea what makes a difference, whether good, bad or ugly.

Why do you want to gain weight? (forgive me, I think we might have touched on this before?) Is it because you think you look better with more rounded angles or your family suggested you look thin?

Which ever, I worry about those who have tried to lose weight for their diabetes then looking to gain again. Yo-yo dieting is one of the worst thing we can do to our bodies. It gets all confused and can end up a muddled metabolism, which you really don't want. Why not try just maintaining a stable state for 2 or 3 months to see where that takes both your body and blood ranges? By stable state, I probably mean allowing for body weight fluctuations of +/- say, 2kg? Everyone has variations, even just eating a BIG meal can show on the scales for a day or two, then come down, or conversely, not eating anything can show a "loss" which is actually just a lower amount of food going through the pipework, if you get my drift.

Take it steady.

 

[bakedalaska]

I understand your frustration when a high fasting impacts on the rest of the day. It happens to me if I wake with a higher level than normal.

I notice your plan is to do more vigorous exercise BEFORE breakfast. This most likely will make matters worse, although your body may react differently. The exercise on an empty tummy may well push your levels up even higher as your liver will continue to work over time pushing more glucose into your blood stream to feed your muscles during the exercise. Perhaps try having breakfast as soon as you can after getting up, let it settle, then exercise.

If you are waking early in the morning feeling stressed and anxious, this may be why your fasting levels are higher than you like. Stress plays a big part in raising levels - again it is the liver producing extra glucose because of the anxiety.

Do you test before getting in to bed? If you do this, you can see if you are rising over night and by how much.

I can't comment on the Clonazepan. I am med-free, but if you are having sleepless nights, this is also another factor in raised levels.

 

[bakedalaska]

Thank you. I was beginning to figure out that exercising on an empty stomach in the morning was causing the liver to continue dumping. Tricky... I am going to have to work on something to do last thing at night to ensure a low a.m. reading. It would not be hard to have breakfast, rest and then exercise because of work. I wonder what effect a spoonful of honey on waking followed by exercise would have...??

 

[Bluetit1802]

A boiled egg would be better, or some cold meat or cheese.


.

 

[AndBreathe]

Thank you. I was beginning to figure out that exercising on an empty stomach in the morning was causing the liver to continue dumping. Tricky... I am going to have to work on something to do last thing at night to ensure a low a.m. reading. It would not be hard to have breakfast, rest and then exercise because of work. I wonder what effect a spoonful of honey on waking followed by exercise would have...??

I don't see it makes any real material difference; you may just capture a different point in the bell curve. If you have a bit of a liver dump, then next time you eat, part of the metabolised food will be used to top up the liver reserves that have been used, so although you might capture a slightly higher starting point, due to the liver dump, somewhere along the line it'll all be evened out as your liver's first priority will be the re-establish its resources, which could mean that the next eating episode - whether meal or snack - could produce a slightly lower rise than otherwise anticipated.

I'm not sure I'm explaining that too well.

 

[bakedalaska]

Yes...I do see what you mean. Thank you

 

[bakedalaska]

A boiled egg would be better, or some cold meat or cheese.


.

Interseting. I can't see how this would work as all the foods you mention are proteins which would surely not metabolise quickly enough to shut down the liver's dumping response. Here are my timings:

6:30 Rise and exercise
6.45 Shower and dress
7:00 Breakfast
7:15 Out the house

A new regime (not involving breakfast) could be:

6:30 rise and ingest the "key" snack
6:45 exercise
7:00 shower and dress
7:15 Out the house
Later in morning at work a second snack

My current breakfast is a scrambled egg OR bacon with a lightly fried tomato in olive oil

 

[AndBreathe]

Interseting. I can't see how this would work as all the foods you mention are proteins which would surely not metabolise quickly enough to shut down the liver's dumping response. Here are my timings:

6:30 Rise and exercise
6.45 Shower and dress
7:00 Breakfast
7:15 Out the house

A new regime (not involving breakfast) could be:

6:30 rise and ingest the "key" snack
6:45 exercise
7:00 shower and dress
7:15 Out the house
Later in morning at work a second snack

My current breakfast is a scrambled egg OR bacon with a lightly fried tomato in olive oil

Are you in danger of getting too wound up in the minutiae here?

I may have missed it, but if I have, please indulge me here. Am I right to conclude your early morning thest is before breakfast, as opposed to absolutely first thing in the morning, immediately after waking?

My morning routine goes something like:
-Wake with/without optional yawn)
-Visit the loo
-Wash hands
-Test

I don't test again pre-breakfast; where's the material benefit in that? By adopting my regime, I find I get the most consistent fasting test result. It then wouldn't matter to me if I exercised before, after or during breakfast.

As I say, I may have lost track of this. If that's the case, I apologise.

 

[bakedalaska]

Are you in danger of getting too wound up in the minutiae here?

I may have missed it, but if I have, please indulge me here. Am I right to conclude your early morning thest is before breakfast, as opposed to absolutely first thing in the morning, immediately after waking?

My morning routine goes something like:
-Wake with/without optional yawn)
-Visit the loo
-Wash hands
-Test

I don't test again pre-breakfast; where's the material benefit in that? By adopting my regime, I find I get the most consistent fasting test result. It then wouldn't matter to me if I exercised before, after or during breakfast.

As I say, I may have lost track of this. If that's the case, I apologise.

Maybe I am obsessing. But I want to try to get the early morning high down BEFORE breakfast so that breakfast doesn't push a high figure even higher. That's why I test then exercise then test again then have breakfast. I don't then test after breakfast... BUT it's not working as I get a higher test result AFTER the exercise, which I guess is just continued liver dumping...

Thanks -

 

[AndBreathe]

Maybe I am obsessing. But I want to try to get the early morning high down BEFORE breakfast so that breakfast doesn't push a high figure even higher. That's why I test then exercise then test again then have breakfast. I don't then test after breakfast... BUT it's not working as I get a higher test result AFTER the exercise, which I guess is just continued liver dumping...

Thanks -

It is my understanding that gentle exercise, like a stroll can lower the blood scores in some, whilst exercise involving exertion is more likely to increase it, in the first instance. But, I reiterate my comment about the bell curve.

What score do these increased levels actually look like? 6, 8, 10, 18?

 

[Redsnapper]

Hi, I find that a glass of red wine in the late evening helps B.G. the next morning.I will consistently notice this if I enjoy a tipple..A nice dry red is ok with low carbs.The alcohol may help you to relax and sleep a little better as well.As with all things moderation....worth a try tho just for medicinal purposes you understand!

 

[bakedalaska]

It is my understanding that gentle exercise, like a stroll can lower the blood scores in some, whilst exercise involving exertion is more likely to increase it, in the first instance. But, I reiterate my comment about the bell curve.

What score do these increased levels actually look like? 6, 8, 10, 18?

My fluctuation is between 5.5 lowest and 8.0 highest
I think you misunderstood. Definitely not trying to increase weight. Steady diet down to my target of "normal BMI"
Thanks for all your advice

 

[bakedalaska]

Hi, I find that a glass of red wine in the late evening helps B.G. the next morning.I will consistently notice this if I enjoy a tipple..A nice dry red is ok with low carbs.The alcohol may help you to relax and sleep a little better as well.As with all things moderation....worth a try tho just for medicinal purposes you understand!

I am having a glass or two of Dry Sherry before bed on your recommendation, mate. I am in the phase of experimenting with different things. But, I do fear the carbs in alcohol...

 

[AndBreathe]

I am having a glass or two of Dry Sherry before bed on your recommendation, mate. I am in the phase of experimenting with different things. But, I do fear the carbs in alcohol...

Which sherry variant are you using - Fino, demi-sec, cream, or whatever?