Post Newcastle Diet blood glucose increase.

Saltyseas

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The other area I looked into was the 'milk and yoghurt' diet the pre-weight loss surgery patients formally all go on "to shrink the liver to make it small and soft to allow the surgery to be carried out via a keyhole incision'. I wondered if there's something in milk, or the whey protein of the Optifast and other generic diet shakes that helps the liver/pancreas lose fat. Any takers???

Oh well - only another 60llbs to go to get to a healthy BMI!! It would just make the dieting easier in the ****FBG reading would stay low!
 

AndBreathe

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Perhaps you need to consider trimming the carbs back a bit more?

Having read Professor Taylor's work, he states that for "reversal", it's the loss that matters, not the speed of the loss.

When you do your fasting test, is it as soon as your feet touch the floor on waking, or do you dose a while, or even wait until before breakfast? I was a relatively early adopter for the Libre constant monitor, and whilst I thought I had a fair handle on my 24 hour blood profile, the Libre informed me I actually have some baby dawn phenomenon - very minor, but there nevertheless.

Have you done any through the night testing at all, to try to work out when your morning reading becomes effective?

Whilst I didn't have masses of weight to lose, I did lose a fair bit, which leaves me a little skinnier than I might ideally have liked, but along the way I noticed that my blood scores didn't come down in a nice steady line; they notched down. In other words, they would reduce and stay pretty stable for a while, then notch down again. In all of that, my fasting levels were last to come down.

Good luck with it all.
 

Saltyseas

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Many thanks AndBreathe. I've never done readings through the night but morning readings are always between 7-8am within 15 mins of waking. Perhaps I should be taking more readings but try to stick to 1 or 2 test strips a day.

I'm very interested in Libre - is this the one that has sticky disk you fix on your arm and sends readings to your phone/computer? Do you have any links about it? Costs?

And yes, those nuts are too tempting I probably need to cut back on carbs a bit more.

I wanted to thank you, AloeSvea, Pipp and many others (including Glitterbritches) who's threads have all been incredibly helpful since I found this forum over the summer.
 

andcol

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@satlyseas it could be that you just didnt do it for long enough and hadn't removed the fatty liver. Did you reach the magic 15% weight loss? Prof Taylor speaks about it and interestingly my numbers (BG and BP) all tightened up and decreased stepwise at around this point. That is why I always have said it isnt an eight week prescribed programme. Just because his experiment was over eight weeks doesn't mean it will take that long. Also please bear in mind that low carb raises insulin resistance (by design) so that produced glucose is utilized by those cells that absolutely need it. The majority of your cells will be fat burning.

Have a read of this thread where I did some experimentation on carb increasing and found my fasting and HbA1c went down

edit
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/moving-from-low-carb-to-higher-levels.58491/
 
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Saltyseas

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@satlyseas it could be that you just didnt do it for long enough and hadn't removed the fatty liver. Did you reach the magic 15% weight loss? Prof Taylor speaks about it and interestingly my numbers (BG and BP) all tightened up and decreased stepwise at around this point. That is why I always have said it isnt an eight week prescribed programme. Just because his experiment was over eight weeks doesn't mean it will take that long. Also please bear in mind that low carb raises insulin resistance (by design) so that produced glucose is utilized by those cells that absolutely need it. The majority of your cells will be fat burning.

Have a read of this thread where I did some experimentation on carb increasing and found my fasting and HbA1c went down

edit
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/moving-from-low-carb-to-higher-levels.58491/

Many thanks Andrew, very helpful thread. I'll try experimenting with carbs to see if the FBG come down with varying amounts of carbs. I'm still too timid to try fructose or any 'real' carbs, so nuts are my carb 'treat' otherwise I try to stick to eggs/fish/meat + fat + green veg post ND.

Re: the magic 15% - I've only another 7 llbs to go from my starting weight for my weight loss to be 15%. But i'll still have an overweight BMI at that point. Maybe I'll follow PerfectStorm and do a bit more ND if I'm still getting the higher FBG after a 15% weight loss - and possibly with those diet shakes this time to see if that helps in any way.

@And Breathe - I followed up the Libre comment and spoke to Abbott Healthcare today but was told the Libre Freestyle starter pack was discontinued, they wouldn't say why or when it might be available again??? It would be very helpful to have this to try Andrew's carb experiment (and I must say I am getting mighty tired of my LCHF diet). And for overnight readings. Does anyone have any idea if there are any other continuous monitoring devices on the market at the moment? I could't find anything on the internet.
 

Celeriac

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The other area I looked into was the 'milk and yoghurt' diet the pre-weight loss surgery patients formally all go on "to shrink the liver to make it small and soft to allow the surgery to be carried out via a keyhole incision'. I wondered if there's something in milk, or the whey protein of the Optifast and other generic diet shakes that helps the liver/pancreas lose fat. Any takers???

Oh well - only another 60llbs to go to get to a healthy BMI!! It would just make the dieting easier in the ****FBG reading would stay low!

Milk, whey, yogurt and cottage cheese are all insulinogenic if you look at th Insulin Index.
 
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Saltyseas

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Milk, whey, yogurt and cottage cheese are all insulinogenic if you look at th Insulin Index.

And that's a good thing, isn't it?? If you have milk protein with (or as) a meal you should have an enhanced increase in your insulin at the same time - so this should help lower postprandial glucose spikes? Interesting ... Wondered if this helped those Newcastle Dieters get such good blood glucose readings after just 1 week of diet?
 

Celeriac

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And that's a good thing, isn't it?? If you have milk protein with (or as) a meal you should have an enhanced increase in your insulin at the same time - so this should help lower postprandial glucose spikes? Interesting ... Wondered if this helped those Newcastle Dieters get such good blood glucose readings after just 1 week of diet?

If you have insulin resistance, eating food which raises your insulin levels won't help lower your BG. Also, higher levels of insulin mean that it's harder to lose weight, because insulin is the fat storage hormone.
 

runner2009

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Am I missing something here? It doesn't sound like anyone is following the ND: 600 calories a day of an Optifast drink and 250g of cooked non starch veggies ( no dairy, fish, meats legumes or poultry ) for 8-weeks.
https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ents/SJH%20NEWCASTLE%20DIET%20BOOKLET2012.pdf

I'm starting my 3rd week, following the diet as well as I can. Eating a bit more veggies some days. The next weeks I'm going to follow the ND Protocol to the letter

My insulin dosage has fallen to between 2 to 4 units a day. My waking BG is 85 to 91 and some days. My back which has been horrible the last 8-months is bearable mostly.

I think the key is to follow the protocol like one was following a recipe

As for protien remember that up to 60% can be converted to glucose.
 
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AndBreathe

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Am I missing something here? It doesn't sound like anyone is following the ND: 600 calories a day of an Optifast drink and 250g of cooked non starch veggies ( no dairy, fish, meats legumes or poultry ) for 8-weeks.
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.nhslothian.scot.nhs.uk/Services/A-Z/DiabetesService/PatientsCarers/Documents/SJH%20NEWCASTLE%20DIET%20BOOKLET2012.pdf

I'm starting my 3rd week, following the diet as well as I can. Eating a bit more veggies some days. The next weeks I'm going to follow the ND Protocol to the letter

My insulin dosage has fallen to between 2 to 4 units a day. My waking BG is 85 to 91 and some days. My back which has been horrible the last 8-months is bearable mostly.

I think the key is to follow the protocol like one was following a recipe

As for protien remember that up to 60% can be converted to glucose.

Whilst there may have been variations in calorific composition by some of the posters on this thread, Professor Taylor is clear in his messaging that the impact relates to the weight lost, and de-fatting of the internal organs, rather than the methodology. His approach was as written up, because it was "easier" to assess compliance and the shakes used were of known, and identical nutritional values.

For clarity, I didn't follow the Newcastle Diet, but I have corresponded with Professor Taylor regarding various aspects of both his approach and my own journey to a significantly improved physical state.
 

runner2009

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Good points. From my experience compliance to the protocol is the most important aspect. For most of us - and the biggest problem with studies revolving around diets - accurately following diets without strict compliance with self reporting is extremely difficult.

Most of us under estimate the number of calories we eat and overestimate our energy expenditures.

It's been documented that during wartime, when the general population has not enough to eat over extended period of time, the rates of heart disease, metabolic syndrome related disease, cancers decline dramatically.

Congratulations on your success.
 

Saltyseas

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41
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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Diet only
Am I missing something here? It doesn't sound like anyone is following the ND: 600 calories a day of an Optifast drink and 250g of cooked non starch veggies ( no dairy, fish, meats legumes or poultry ) for 8-weeks.
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.nhslothian.scot.nhs.uk/Services/A-Z/DiabetesService/PatientsCarers/Documents/SJH%20NEWCASTLE%20DIET%20BOOKLET2012.pdf

I'm starting my 3rd week, following the diet as well as I can. Eating a bit more veggies some days. The next weeks I'm going to follow the ND Protocol to the letter

My insulin dosage has fallen to between 2 to 4 units a day. My waking BG is 85 to 91 and some days. My back which has been horrible the last 8-months is bearable mostly.

I think the key is to follow the protocol like one was following a recipe

As for protien remember that up to 60% can be converted to glucose.

Hi Runner2009,
Thats fantastic you've stuck with it for 3 weeks and brilliant that you are at 85 - 91 mg/dl (that's the equivalent of 4.7 - 5 mmol/l I think).

I think you are absolutely right to stick with the ND protocol as I followed a 'deviated' Newcastle Diet of normal food eating 800kcal for 8 weeks over the summer. I lost 18lbs, and although my FBGs came down significantly (but only in week 6) to low 5's and 4's, they gradually increased back up again over the next couple of months on a LCHF (less than 50g carb a day) diet to 7's and sometimes over 8mmol/l. I even lost a further 9lbs over these last 2 months but I was very confused and quite devastated about my increasing FBG's to say the least.

I've been looking into this further and in my opinion the diet shakes like Optifast that are whey protein (milk) based definitely help the liver lose fat more quickly. Why else do the bariatric surgeons advise patients to go on a 'milk and yogurt diet 4 weeks prior to their surgery 'to shrink the liver to make it small and soft to allow the surgery to be carried out via a keyhole'?

So I've restarted the ND 6 days ago, and like you, @runner2009, I'm sticking with the protocol : 600kcal from shakes (4 Atkins shakes at 150 kcal each as they have lower sugar than other brands) and 200kcal from green leafy veggies. I do think the high insulinogenic effect of the milk protein in the shakes actually helps (me), even though @Celeriac above says :
"If you have insulin resistance, eating food which raises your insulin levels won't help lower your BG. Also, higher levels of insulin mean that it's harder to lose weight, because insulin is the fat storage hormone".

The basic biology says that 'insulin helps the body move glucose from the blood into the cells so that the cells can use the glucose as an energy source' so its bound to lower glucose in the blood.

Just based on me as a guineapig, which I realise means nothing, I've had a very different FBG response with this ND. I'm only on day 6 days but my FBG has decreased significantly in the first week :
14th 7.1
15th 5.9
16th 4.9
17th 4.7
18th 4.6
19th 4.7

Good luck, and I would be very interested to hear how you get on with the ND protocol.
 
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Celeriac

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Usually, foods which have a high Glycemic Index # also have a high Insulin Index # but there are some abnormalities. Milk is higher on the FII than it is on the GI. Lamb has zero carbs, yet is higher on the FII than it is on the GI. It is thought to be a reaction to particular types of protein.

Insulin doesn't just open cells to allow glucose in, it allows amino acids in. That's why bodybuilders like to eat insulinogenic foods with protein after workouts to get the amino acids into the cells.
 
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SunnyExpat

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Am I missing something here? It doesn't sound like anyone is following the ND: 600 calories a day of an Optifast drink and 250g of cooked non starch veggies ( no dairy, fish, meats legumes or poultry ) for 8-weeks.
https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ents/SJH%20NEWCASTLE%20DIET%20BOOKLET2012.pdf

I'm starting my 3rd week, following the diet as well as I can. Eating a bit more veggies some days. The next weeks I'm going to follow the ND Protocol to the letter

My insulin dosage has fallen to between 2 to 4 units a day. My waking BG is 85 to 91 and some days. My back which has been horrible the last 8-months is bearable mostly.

I think the key is to follow the protocol like one was following a recipe

As for protien remember that up to 60% can be converted to glucose.

I haven't done it, as I lost weight on a normal low fat diet to the point I didn't need to, but I entirely agree.
His protocol works, so I wouldn't suggest changing it either.
If I need to lose weight in the future, I strongly suspect that would be my first choice as a point of attack.

(Although I suspect he encourages anyone to lose weight by any means, and won't discourage those that suggest other ways to achieve it when they email him)
 
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runner2009

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Hi Runner2009,
Thats fantastic you've stuck with it for 3 weeks and brilliant that you are at 85 - 91 mg/dl (that's the equivalent of 4.7 - 5 mmol/l I think).

Thx but I am only starting the 3rd week. It has been tough for sure - I'm always thinking about food. I am like the dogs sniffing and licking the kitchen floor for any crumbs of nourishment.

To me this disease is so complex and so many permutations - especially when you factor in the individual genetic differences, the many variations of the disease and where one is on the illness.

I'm supposed to be a T1.5 - and my primary insulin release is small if at all, but I am sure I have a secondary release.

The best I've ever done ( with controlling weight and BG ) was eating a consistent carb diet, no meats, dairy or oils.

I ate about 30g or carbs at each meal - adjusting some types based upon BG. My snacks were popcorn and Edamame Hummus and veggies.

I controlled my snacks, especially my night time cravings. Oh and no pints at all. I also started lifting like a fiend adjusting my exercise around my insulin injections and for an old guy I put on a bunch of muscle.

Then I met a new GF, and I started going back to normal eating but focusing on LCHF following Dr. Bernstein. And of course drinking some Stouts ( which I found actually lowered my BG - so of course I over indulged ).

My diet increased in fat especially cheese and when I hurt my back, my exercise stopped and the weight came back and so did my insulin requirements ( but not as much as I had expected ).

My weight comes right back to fat around my internal organs - its amazing; am I a bear?

I was surprised in that I didn't lose that much muscle mass, just strength.

IMO, I think the HF part of the LC diet is very dangerous - because if you are like myself and have poor portion control you can really pack on the calories - with popcorn or veggies it is a different story.

If you look at and talk to Dr. Bernstein, you can see that even for a man in his mid 80s, he has a lot of muscle ( he works out with weights and a recumbent bike daily. But also, he is super skinny - on the low side of the BMI - and he eats like a bird.

I honestly don't know what is wrong with me, but I can go for almost a whole day without eating with no problems, but when I start to eat, I just love those high fat, hid density foods and I can eat like crazy.

One of my kids is like that too, another isn't. From the reading I've done this is supposed to be an adaptive trait for survival back in the day of feast or famine.

IMO, I am not so sure that how much carbs and fat and protein one eats is so much the point as is the total amount of calories.

Many of us are on the high end of the BMI scale especially when compared to our Grandparents.

I believe that the official estimates of our base calorie requirements are too high and the amount of calories they say we need is on average way to high.

I've gone on a diet where I'm measuring, weighing and journaling my food intake and not exercising and I'm amazed at how little food I have to eat to start losing weight - those of us on LC diets don't have the initial water weight lose.

If I go for a run and use my phone or fitbit to monitor, the amount of calories it says I've burned can't be right - its always too high.

The point is that for a middle age to older person - both men and woman - to be on the lower end to middle of the BMI I think that daily calorie range is on average under 1,400 calories. That's less than 500 calories per meal with some small snacks.

Women average calories without gaining weight is like 2,000 and men 2,500. Of course there is a big variability but ... I've been dieting and plateaued for weeks, and slowly cut daily calories back by 25 calories a day - I can be OCD - and then all of a sudden I start to lose again.

There is no way one can eat very much high density carbs or meats and dairy on a diet of under 1,400 calories. A wedge of cheese, a handful of nuts, a slice of toast or cake, a piece of fruit, 1/4 cup of lentils and your done. At that calorie level if you are trying to be balanced you can't eat too much more than 45g of carbs ( 3 servings which is considered a low carb diet ).

On the other hand a veggie soup, multiple cups of cooked veggies and squash and you are below target.

The funny thing, that now that I am on this diet, I feel better in the morning, my back still hurts but not as bad ( maybe all the cabbage is creating anti-inflammation ) and what is so wild is that my average heart rate through out the day has dropped about 10 beats - slowing metabolism?

On a side note about Whey protein, I was under the impression that Whey protein ( or many super fine grounded proteins ) cause a GPL-1 insulin response ( coming from the gut ) and this is one of the reasons Whey shakes are used by body builders after a strenuous work out.

I tried it and it did work for me for awhile and then stopped working .... who the heck knows.

One last thing here is a MD that came down with adult onset and he is eating a LCHF diet and managing too on 1 or 2 units a day.


If you look at him, he like Dr. Bernstein can not eat that many calories. I am sure that I am not saying anything new, as people have quoted that the head of the NC study says that we should be at the low end of ones BMI.

For me, this controlling the amount I eat is a constant struggle; it is like one day at a time.

PS

Right now I am 80 or 4.4 before my big 200 calorie lunch and I've taken no insulin for the last two days - Oh and I am starving too.
 
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SunnyExpat

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I understand exactly where you are coming from.

I can not eat, but once I start........

It's a struggle, minute to minute.
 
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AndBreathe

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Thx but I am only starting the 3rd week. It has been tough for sure - I'm always thinking about food. I am like the dogs sniffing and licking the kitchen floor for any crumbs of nourishment.

To me this disease is so complex and so many permutations - especially when you factor in the individual genetic differences, the many variations of the disease and where one is on the illness.

I'm supposed to be a T1.5 - and my primary insulin release is small if at all, but I am sure I have a secondary release.

The best I've ever done ( with controlling weight and BG ) was eating a consistent carb diet, no meats, dairy or oils.

I ate about 30g or carbs at each meal - adjusting some types based upon BG. My snacks were popcorn and Edamame Hummus and veggies.

I controlled my snacks, especially my night time cravings. Oh and no pints at all. I also started lifting like a fiend adjusting my exercise around my insulin injections and for an old guy I put on a bunch of muscle.

Then I met a new GF, and I started going back to normal eating but focusing on LCHF following Dr. Bernstein. And of course drinking some Stouts ( which I found actually lowered my BG - so of course I over indulged ).

My diet increased in fat especially cheese and when I hurt my back, my exercise stopped and the weight came back and so did my insulin requirements ( but not as much as I had expected ).

My weight comes right back to fat around my internal organs - its amazing; am I a bear?

I was surprised in that I didn't lose that much muscle mass, just strength.

IMO, I think the HF part of the LC diet is very dangerous - because if you are like myself and have poor portion control you can really pack on the calories - with popcorn or veggies it is a different story.

If you look at and talk to Dr. Bernstein, you can see that even for a man in his mid 80s, he has a lot of muscle ( he works out with weights and a recumbent bike daily. But also, he is super skinny - on the low side of the BMI - and he eats like a bird.

I honestly don't know what is wrong with me, but I can go for almost a whole day without eating with no problems, but when I start to eat, I just love those high fat, hid density foods and I can eat like crazy.

One of my kids is like that too, another isn't. From the reading I've done this is supposed to be an adaptive trait for survival back in the day of feast or famine.

IMO, I am not so sure that how much carbs and fat and protein one eats is so much the point as is the total amount of calories.

Many of us are on the high end of the BMI scale especially when compared to our Grandparents.

I believe that the official estimates of our base calorie requirements are too high and the amount of calories they say we need is on average way to high.

I've gone on a diet where I'm measuring, weighing and journaling my food intake and not exercising and I'm amazed at how little food I have to eat to start losing weight - those of us on LC diets don't have the initial water weight lose.

If I go for a run and use my phone or fitbit to monitor, the amount of calories it says I've burned can't be right - its always too high.

The point is that for a middle age to older person - both men and woman - to be on the lower end to middle of the BMI I think that daily calorie range is on average under 1,400 calories. That's less than 500 calories per meal with some small snacks.

Women average calories without gaining weight is like 2,000 and men 2,500. Of course there is a big variability but ... I've been dieting and plateaued for weeks, and slowly cut daily calories back by 25 calories a day - I can be OCD - and then all of a sudden I start to lose again.

There is no way one can eat very much high density carbs or meats and dairy on a diet of under 1,400 calories. A wedge of cheese, a handful of nuts, a slice of toast or cake, a piece of fruit, 1/4 cup of lentils and your done. At that calorie level if you are trying to be balanced you can't eat too much more than 45g of carbs ( 3 servings which is considered a low carb diet ).

On the other hand a veggie soup, multiple cups of cooked veggies and squash and you are below target.

The funny thing, that now that I am on this diet, I feel better in the morning, my back still hurts but not as bad ( maybe all the cabbage is creating anti-inflammation ) and what is so wild is that my average heart rate through out the day has dropped about 10 beats - slowing metabolism?

On a side note about Whey protein, I was under the impression that Whey protein ( or many super fine grounded proteins ) cause a GPL-1 insulin response ( coming from the gut ) and this is one of the reasons Whey shakes are used by body builders after a strenuous work out.

I tried it and it did work for me for awhile and then stopped working .... who the heck knows.

One last thing here is a MD that came down with adult onset and he is eating a LCHF diet and managing too on 1 or 2 units a day.


If you look at him, he like Dr. Bernstein can not eat that many calories. I am sure that I am not saying anything new, as people have quoted that the head of the NC study says that we should be at the low end of ones BMI.

For me, this controlling the amount I eat is a constant struggle; it is like one day at a time.

PS

Right now I am 80 or 4.4 before my big 200 calorie lunch and I've taken no insulin for the last two days - Oh and I am starving too.


I haven't seen anywhere Professor Taylor suggests people need to be at the lower and of the healthy BMI scale, but then again, I can't specifically think of anywhere he states definitively one doesn't. He does frequently reiterate the (annoyingly) very personal nature of the personal fat threshold (PFT), coupled with warnings about regaining weight post-loss.

His work was very clearly ground breaking, but literally that. It's really the start of the learning process into the physiology and mechanics of certain sub-types of diabetes.

Our greatest hurdle at the moment is the misunderstanding that exists about the absolute requirement for carbohydrate at every meal. I'm no a no/minimal carb merchant, but I have trimmed it very significantly. Not only does it appear to aid my bloods stay in a decent range, but it also (thus far) make maintaining weight, at a very trim level, easier than I have ever found in the past. Indeed, any maintenance tweaks I appear to need to make these days are to keep my weight up, not down.

Who would have thought it?
 
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Celeriac

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I'm sure that if I were eating carbs at every meal, my blood glucose would be off the scale. Mine only come from vegetables and dairy.
 

AloeSvea

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At the end of a real food Newcastle Diet (ND), my HBA1c was 40, with a BMI of 22.8. I was lean. I had to carry a pillow around to sit on hard surfaces comfortably.

After a month's holiday with increased carbs but not calories, and way less exercise, my BMI went back to the pre-ND level of 24 (high end of normal weight), and had gained 3 cm on both my hips and waist (I think as an indicator of fat on the liver is as interesting if not more so than a bmi.) I was 'normal weight'.

The month after the holiday, my blood glucose levels got way out of control fast, with pretty high Fasting Blood Glucose readings, again, and my HBA1c was 44 before I knew it. (A good 'don't do as I have done' post ND story indeed!)

I began by having a target of getting as lean as just after the ND, in order to get good blood glucose control again. After a while, I decided I didn't want what was the pain and misery for me of going low calorie. So I concentrated on muscle gain, which I prefer to hunger, big time. And on going low-carb (25g-50g a day) which I realised, when I started counting carbs, that I had never done before. Even when low calorie dieting. And on trying out different kinds of intermittent fasting regimens instead of going low calorie. It has taken me five months to get back down to the HBA1c of 40 that I was my lowest post the Newcastle diet, on this new LCHF modified paleo, weight lifting, periodic fasting etc regimen. But I am not lean. (Thank goodness. I way prefer not having to carry a pillow around!) I have only lost 1 cm off my hips and waist at the end of the 5 months, but I am a lot musclier. And my bmi is is 23.9.

Different paths to blood cell, liver and pancreas health?

I share my experience with you because I do still think there is a lot to the Personal Fat Threshold theory. It makes a lot of sense as being a main driver of T2D (as in fat on the liver mucking everything up). But being and keeping really lean may not be for everyone! It may be really hard to maintain for many. (It is for me.) I prefer to be normal weight, but muscley. And do the odd fast. I certainly find it easier than to keep up being lean. Same HBA1c. Happier life. Different paths to the same thing...
 
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Saltyseas

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At the end of a real food Newcastle Diet (ND), my HBA1c was 40, with a BMI of 22.8. I was lean. I had to carry a pillow around to sit on hard surfaces comfortably.

After a month's holiday with increased carbs but not calories, and way less exercise, my BMI went back to the pre-ND level of 24 (high end of normal weight), and had gained 3 cm on both my hips and waist (I think as an indicator of fat on the liver is as interesting if not more so than a bmi.) I was 'normal weight'.

The month after the holiday, my blood glucose levels got way out of control fast, with pretty high Fasting Blood Glucose readings, again, and my HBA1c was 44 before I knew it. (A good 'don't do as I have done' post ND story indeed!)

I began by having a target of getting as lean as just after the ND, in order to get good blood glucose control again. After a while, I decided I didn't want what was the pain and misery for me of going low calorie. So I concentrated on muscle gain, which I prefer to hunger, big time. And on going low-carb (25g-50g a day) which I realised, when I started counting carbs, that I had never done before. Even when low calorie dieting. And on trying out different kinds of intermittent fasting regimens instead of going low calorie. It has taken me five months to get back down to the HBA1c of 40 that I was my lowest post the Newcastle diet, on this new LCHF modified paleo, weight lifting, periodic fasting etc regimen. But I am not lean. (Thank goodness. I way prefer not having to carry a pillow around!) I have only lost 1 cm off my hips and waist at the end of the 5 months, but I am a lot musclier. And my bmi is is 23.9.

Different paths to blood cell, liver and pancreas health?

I share my experience with you because I do still think there is a lot to the Personal Fat Threshold theory. It makes a lot of sense as being a main driver of T2D (as in fat on the liver mucking everything up). But being and keeping really lean may not be for everyone! It may be really hard to maintain for many. (It is for me.) I prefer to be normal weight, but muscley. And do the odd fast. I certainly find it easier than to keep up being lean. Same HBA1c. Happier life. Different paths to the same thing...

Hi AloeSvea - what you've gone through post ND is my biggest worry. After all the hardwork and struggle to stick to the ND (and it is a real struggle) I am concerned that I won't be able to actually 'cure' my diabetes and my FBGs will shoot back up again after this second strict ND I am on now. Are you now able to eat carbs with a 'normal' insulin response, or are you still controlling blood sugar by diet? I would love to hear how @Glitterbritches is getting on as it was his blog that helped me in the summer.

I know Roy Taylor updated his FAQ page a while after the initial study paper was released, to recommend that most people take a reasonable amour of time to lose weight to get to their personal fat threshold. But, (and this is a big but) I do keep going back his original study paper which states very prominently in the 3rd sentence that "There is now no doubt that this reversal of diabetes depends upon the sudden and profound decrease in food intake".

I'm following the ND for a second time : 600kcal from diet shakes and 200kcal from green leafy veg - but I wonder if I should drop down to 700 or 600kcal to 'shock' the liver/pancreas into action. After all, the subjects in Roy Taylor's trial did not end up at normal BMI and yet 3 out of the 10 passed OGTT 3 months after the trial ended!
 
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