42 Country study - fascinating

douglas99

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I think that overall you are twice as likely to die from CVD than cancer in Europe at the moment..
I'm hopeful that my diet will reduce the risk of either eventuality and that I can choose the time of my departure

Sadly, thinking it won't actually make it happen.
Twice would be a nice thought, unfortunately for us, more people die of cancer here now.
And even more sadly, (well, not for me) mainly due to the fact CVD has decreased.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160814190952.htm

But, if you want to choose, that's fair enough.
We're all grown ups.
 

bulkbiker

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Sadly, thinking it won't actually make it happen.
I was actually taking about Europe wide to keep it in the same terms as the study we were discussing.
"think" was a euphemism for "I have just read" sorry if I was unclear..
 

Lamont D

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If that was the measure, none of the counties would appear in the survey you quoted earlier.
Ironically, London, (one of the best performing areas, has a high degree of child poverty by your definition of 'poverty')

I agree,
Take Kensington, one of the richest borough's, but also a high level of poverty!

Is there another word than 'poverty'?
I don't think the word covers the description I am looking for!
 

CherryAA

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It would be interesting to see the geographical pattern of the countries involved.
I've found the poorest countries generally survive on the highest carbs, (rice, potato, pasta, cous cous), do the most manual work, have no medicine, and lower care standards.
The more affluent diet eats a lot better, don't need to eat cheap filler, have more sedentary work, have better medicine, and higher care standards.
So, the figures aren't really surprising in that context.


The study discloses all the relevant countries and links that to healthcare etc. It is a very detailed study of overall health of its citizens based on food consumption, so if you want to look into geography all the data is there.
 

douglas99

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I was actually taking about Europe wide to keep it in the same terms as the study we were discussing.
"think" was a euphemism for "I have just read" sorry if I was unclear..

Nope, in the report we are discussing, CVD is the opposite trend to cancer, and countries on a high saturated fat diet die of cancer more.
Sorry it's unclear.
 

librarising

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unfortunately for us, more people die of cancer here now.

That's another reason I steer clear of statins. Not definitive. Is it the statin or the low cholesterol causing the cancer ?
http://ascopubs.org/doi/full/10.1200/jco.2014.58.9564
"Association never proves causation. Although it may be difficult to prove that statins can cause or prevent cancer, the preponderance of evidence favors the former."
Geoff
 

CherryAA

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Interesting fact, very relevant to the published study.
Moldova is one of the poorest countries we're proud to be a member of the Europe with.
GDP per head is $1, 848 per annum, and falling.
The only export is agriculture, which is also the staple diet.
(Well, possibly the other export is human trafficking, but let's not count that one as sustainable hopefully)
Another interesting fact, UK GDP per head is £43, 642.
We earn as much in three years, as they do in a lifetime. (And that lifetime is about ten years shorter than ours)

Everything in context.
I'd rather live in the uk and eat carbs personally, than live in Moldova and eat beef.

Isn't the point that the Moldovan's are unlikely to be able to afford to eat beef and health possibly suffers as a result ?
 

douglas99

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Isn't the point that the Moldovan's are unlikely to be able to afford to eat beef and health possibly suffers as a result ?

Entirely the point.
A poor lifestyle will kill you faster.
So will no healthcare, working 7 days a week, and spending 24/7 trying not to die.

Probably the same sort of choice as giving a homeless person in the uk a tenner.
Would he be better spending the money on a nice steak, or going to the hostel, and buying a loaf of bread on the way?
 
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douglas99

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That's another reason I steer clear of statins. Not definitive. Is it the statin or the low cholesterol causing the cancer ?
http://ascopubs.org/doi/full/10.1200/jco.2014.58.9564
"Association never proves causation. Although it may be difficult to prove that statins can cause or prevent cancer, the preponderance of evidence favors the former."
Geoff

You pay your money, you take your choice.
Cancer mortalities are falling, CVD mortalities are falling faster.
Statins are being prescribed more.

So, if low cholesterol, or statins cause cancer, and high cholesterol prevent CVD, you'd expect both figures to be the opposite.
Although to be fair, that's only using the UK figures.
I don't want to emigrate to a poorer country to change the ratios up, and hope CVD goes up faster.
 

Lamont D

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Yep, thanks!
Clear as mud!
Someone in government especially the Tories is always moving the goal posts!!!


I suppose living in poverty as a child, can give you an enlightened view of how missing meals and going to bed hungry and not having even basic things can effect you!
It gave me the strength of character and ambition to get me the motivation to make sure my kids and grandkids don't go through what I did!

But I will say the powers that be, know an easy target, in the unfortunate in how to inflict more suffering than there should be!
It is a shocking indictment of our country in how many millions are struggling in this time!
Food banks are this government's greatest legacy!
 

douglas99

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We're and sitting around having this chat on here because for most of us.
It's a Sunday, a bit of pottering around the house, maybe a bit of gardening, Sunday lunch bought from Tesco's, a glass of wine, emergency services on 24/7 free of charge, complaining the weekend will be over soon, and we're back at work tomorrow.
I'll take that over living hand to mouth somewhere else, imagining it's only the fact there is a joint slow roasting in the oven that is the difference.
 

douglas99

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Yep, thanks!
Clear as mud!
Someone in government especially the Tories is always moving the goal posts!!!


I suppose living in poverty as a child, can give you an enlightened view of how missing meals and going to bed hungry and not having even basic things can effect you!
It gave me the strength of character and ambition to get me the motivation to make sure my kids and grandkids don't go through what I did!

But I will say the powers that be, know an easy target, in the unfortunate in how to inflict more suffering than there should be!
It is a shocking indictment of our country in how many millions are struggling in this time!
Food banks are this government's greatest legacy!

Good and bad though.
We grew up without food banks, (it was around 2000 or so they spread in the UK)
So, if we were missing meals, and going to bed hungry, the problem was there before the food banks at least provided some solution.
But, if you look at the food, it'll mainly dried, or tinned, or bread or similar cheap, easy to store carbs.
 

Bluetit1802

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We're and sitting around having this chat on here because for most of us.
It's a Sunday, a bit of pottering around the house, maybe a bit of gardening, Sunday lunch bought from Tesco's, a glass of wine, emergency services on 24/7 free of charge, complaining the weekend will be over soon, and we're back at work tomorrow.
I'll take that over living hand to mouth somewhere else, imagining it's only the fact there is a joint slow roasting in the oven that is the difference.

For once, I agree with you. ;)
 

CherryAA

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I can monitor enough things to mostly prevent CVD, in the developed country I'm living in.

The full conclusion has the real kicker, that no one will see coming, until it's too late.
It repeated what other studies have found, or suggested.

"In fact, our ecological comparison of cancer incidence in 39 European countries (for 2012; (59)) can bring another important argument. Current rates of cancer incidence in Europe are namely the exact geographical opposite of CVDs (see Fig. 28). In sharp contrast to CVDs, cancer correlates with the consumption of animal food (particularly animal fat), alcohol, a high dietary protein quality, high cholesterol levels, high health expenditure, and above average height. These contrasting patterns mirror physiological mechanisms underlying physical growth and the development of cancer and CVDs (60). The best example of this health paradox is again that of French men, who have the lowest rates of CVD mortality in Europe, but the highest rates of cancer incidence. In other words, cancer and CVDs appear to express two extremes of a fundamental metabolic disbalance that is related to factors such as cholesterol and IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor)."

I'm keeping animal fat, animal protein, and my cholesterol down.
And I'm even average height!


My take on this would be that the issue here is going to prove to be one of overeating in general where one's diet includes a) too much carbohydrates and b) to much protein. An oversupply of carbs promoting diabetes and heart disease and an overconsumption of food in general and proteins in particular promoting cancer.

Thus keeping overall calories down is necessary, as is eating moderate amounts of carbs and proteins, where the carb element should be limited to the carbs necessary to get the other nutrients supplied by them, and the protein element is a function of age, effort expended and the need to supply the correct nutrients to let your body replace what needs replacing without flooding it with an oversupply. The balance of one's food then coming directly from fats of whatever kind.

This is entirely consistent with too much protein included in one's diet as opposed to too much animal fat per se. i.e. when we eat the building block of the body, protein - to excess we encourage growth and with a mature body what then grows is the next thing in line - cancer. This would thus be entirely consistent with height being a factor - as in order to grow, one must consume more protein.

An ultra ketogenic diet ( 90% fats ) is known to be beneficial to cancer patients because the cancer can't feed on ketones but does feed on glucose. In those circumstances it seems a bit counter-intuitive that somehow its the fats that caused the cancer to grow in the first place.

In nearly all highly developed economies, the fear of fat is so pronounced that most "high quality " meats consumed as meat is the lowest possible fat varieties- with all fat cut off - thus its also hard to make the connection that is it consumption of animal fats per se that causes cancer compared to anything else.

Where fat from meat is consumed in any quantity it is often because it provides flavour as part of the various processed foods on offer. Thus its difficult to see if problems associated with those foods are connected to the meat fat content of the product or all the other garbage included through its processing.


This is an interesting set of long term graphs.
https://authoritynutrition.com/11-graphs-that-show-what-is-wrong-with-modern-diet/


I was fascinated to find this comment on the NHS website

While eating too much saturated fat may not increase your cancer risk, it can increase your risk of other health conditions, such as coronary heart disease.

so currently the NHS has bet in entirely the opposite direction to this study



My own money is keeping my protein and carbs combined to less than 100g, ie about 30 carbs and about 70 proteins, and preferable 90 ( i.e. 60 protein) not worrying too much where the fat actually comes from as long as its a natural product of whatever variety and keeping my diet as varied as possible.
 

Bluetit1802

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Yep, thanks!
Clear as mud!
Someone in government especially the Tories is always moving the goal posts!!!


I suppose living in poverty as a child, can give you an enlightened view of how missing meals and going to bed hungry and not having even basic things can effect you!
It gave me the strength of character and ambition to get me the motivation to make sure my kids and grandkids don't go through what I did!

But I will say the powers that be, know an easy target, in the unfortunate in how to inflict more suffering than there should be!
It is a shocking indictment of our country in how many millions are struggling in this time!
Food banks are this government's greatest legacy!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_bank
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/short-history-food-banks-modern-phenomenon-1445071


The world's first food bank was established in the US in 1967, and since then many thousands have been set up all over the world. In Europe, which until recently had little need for food banks due to extensive welfare systems, their numbers grew rapidly after the lasting global inflation in the price of food which began in late 2006, and especially after the financial crisis of 2007–08 began to further worsen economic conditions for those on low income.

The first food bank was set up in Europe in 1984. Cécile Bigot heard of food banks through Francis Lopez, who set up the Edmonton's Food Bank in Canada. She contacted several charities with the idea in a bid to help Paris' poorest amid rising poverty in the capital city.

This was shortly followed by the establishment of the first food bank in Brussels, after which the European Federation of Food Banks launched in 1986.

Food banks spread across Europe after this, with centres set up in Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal by 1992. Between 1994 and 2001, food banks appeared in Poland, Greece and Luxembourg.

The UK and wealthier nations did not set up food banks until later. Since 2004, they have been established in the UK, Germany and Hungary.
 
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douglas99

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My take on this would be that the issue here is going to prove to be one of overeating in general where one's diet includes a) too much carbohydrates and b) to much protein. An oversupply of carbs promoting diabetes and heart disease and an overconsumption of food in general and proteins in particular promoting cancer.

Thus keeping overall calories down is necessary, as is eating moderate amounts of carbs and proteins, where the carb element should be limited to the carbs necessary to get the other nutrients supplied by them, and the protein element is a function of age, effort expended and the need to supply the correct nutrients to let your body replace what needs replacing without flooding it with an oversupply. The balance of one's food then coming directly from fats of whatever kind.

This is entirely consistent with too much protein included in one's diet as opposed to too much animal fat per se. i.e. when we eat the building block of the body, protein - to excess we encourage growth and with a mature body what then grows is the next thing in line - cancer. This would thus be entirely consistent with height being a factor - as in order to grow, one must consume more protein.

An ultra ketogenic diet ( 90% fats ) is known to be beneficial to cancer patients because the cancer can't feed on ketones but does feed on glucose. In those circumstances it seems a bit counter-intuitive that somehow its the fats that caused the cancer to grow in the first place.

In nearly all highly developed economies, the fear of fat is so pronounced that most "high quality " meats consumed as meat is the lowest possible fat varieties- with all fat cut off - thus its also hard to make the connection that is it consumption of animal fats per se that causes cancer compared to anything else.

Where fat from meat is consumed in any quantity it is often because it provides flavour as part of the various processed foods on offer. Thus its difficult to see if problems associated with those foods are connected to the meat fat content of the product or all the other garbage included through its processing.


This is an interesting set of long term graphs.
https://authoritynutrition.com/11-graphs-that-show-what-is-wrong-with-modern-diet/


I was fascinated to find this comment on the NHS website

While eating too much saturated fat may not increase your cancer risk, it can increase your risk of other health conditions, such as coronary heart disease.

so currently the NHS has bet in entirely the opposite direction to this study



My own money is keeping my protein and carbs combined to less than 100g, ie about 30 carbs and about 70 proteins, and preferable 90 ( i.e. 60 protein) not worrying too much where the fat actually comes from as long as its a natural product of whatever variety and keeping my diet as varied as possible.

It's interesting to actually read the studies on the keto diet as a cure for cancer.
Cancer is a cell which is reproducing uncontrollably. Ketones are a superfuel.
There are many theories on how that will end.
And it's very hard to find a cancer survivor that is on a ketogenic diet.

I certainly agree overeating will kill you, but interestingly, so will undereating.
It will actually cause several types of CVD, and it will also lower your cholesterol.
But that's the chicken and egg, What kills you?
The fact your heart muscle for instance wastes away from malnutrition, or the fact the autopsy recorded low cholesterol when you were dead?
 

douglas99

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I misread your words "more people die of cancer here now."
My bad.
Geoff

Well the average lifespan has gone up by about 6 years in the past 3 decades, so targeting CVD and cancer in the UK in recent decades seems to have worked well enough for most.
Up by about 10 years since the sixties, and 20 years since the 30's.
(Makes you wonder if you really would d go back to living like we used to though, if you could choose. I remember when even nostalgia seemed better too)
 

ickihun

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From what I could see in hospital is the slim smokers had horrendous heart health compared to well eating overweight people.
I speak as I find.

None smokers had better heart health.

I cannot comment on diabetics as I couldnt see signs of diabetes.
Nor what people eat.

The smokers needed to go out for a smoke or were ratty because they couldnt get out for a smoke.