Got the good news today

Grazer

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By the way, I started off following the dietary advice given to me by the health care professionals, including my doctor. My BGs after eating we're nearly always double figures and sometimes mid teens. It's when I started reading dietary posts on this site that I got to understand carbs. It's by doing almost the opposite of what they said that I got to the position now where I'm very rarely out of the 6s and normally on the 5s after meals. That's all that really matters to me as a diabetic.
 

Defren

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Grazer said:
I agree with xyzzy and others. I cut down on my carbs and increased my fats to make it up because I had to eat something! Lots more cheese, cream etc. as well as massively improving my blood sugar levels, my cholesterol went from 5.5 to 3.8, I lost four inches of my waist and my BMI went to 22.5. I say ditch the things you KNOW are bad for you like the starchy carbs, don't worry about the things that some people say MAY be bad for you.

Hello Krazus, welcome to the forum.

I'm another high (good fat) success story. At diagnosis my total cholesterol was 5.5. An ultra low carb and high fat diet changed all that, and just four months later my cholesterol was 3.4. Good fats like cream, cheese, eggs, olive oil, avocado's etc should make up the calories lost from dropping carbs. The low fat mania has been proven not to work, where a LCHF diet has. As a newly diagnosed T2 I suggest you read the evidence yourself, and you will soon see, clinical trials showing a low fat diet are thin on the ground. Also it's worth remembering, almost all low fat and light products tend to be bulked up (to make them palatable) with sugar. Don't take my word, have a look in your supermarket. :D
 

borofergie

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Let me guess, you're an NHS dietician?

chalcedony said:
Hi Cultivator. Saturated fat raises your blood cholesterol more than anything else in your diet.

I think the word you are looking for is "carbohydrate".

In the words of Dr Richard Feinman:
"Dietary carbohydrate restriction is the single most effective method (except for total starvation) of reducing triglycerides, and is as effective as any intervention, including most drugs, at increasing HDL and reducing the number of small-dense LDL particles. Beyond lipid markers, carbohydrate restriction improves all of the features of metabolic syndrome."
http://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/2012/03/ ... 15-theses/

Saturated fat has only been shown not to influence blood cholesterol levels in the majority of the population:
Chris Kresser said:
It's kind of wash. I don't think it's clinically significant. And then we have
saturated fat, and it's a similar phenomenon. I don't have exact numbers
because I've never seen a study with the exact numbers, but we know
that short-term studies show that eating saturated fat does raise
cholesterol in the blood. And that was where the confusion started is all
the early studies were short-term.

So this whole idea that saturated fat raises cholesterol came from those
short-term studies. But longer-term studies have shown that for the
majority of people, eating saturated fat does not affect your blood
cholesterol levels. Again though, there's a group of hyper-responders
who -- when they eat saturated fat, their blood cholesterol levels go up.
And it's not completely clear now whether there are LDL particle
numbers going up or whether just their LDL cholesterol,
http://robbwolf.com/2012/09/25/chris-kr ... isode-151/


I eat an 85% fat diet, in which I try to maximise saturated fats, and minimise polyunsaturated fats. My TC is 3.6 mmol/l.


chalcedony said:
Fat is a nutrient that helps our body function properly like supplying us with energy. It also helps other nutrients work. Remember that our body needs only small amounts of fat, and too much of the saturated type will increase cholesterol in the blood.There are different types of fat, and they have different effects on cholesterol and heart disease risk.

"Our body only needs small amounts of fat" :shock: Define "small amount of fat".

There is no evidence that reducing dietary fat improves mortality, although it has been implicated in an increased risk in some types of cancer. Unlike carbohydrate, fat is an essential nutrient. Unless you are suggesting that a T2 diabetic gets most of his energy from carbs (which would be extremely foolhardy), how can he possibly cut down on fat?

chalcedony said:
You need to reduce the amount of saturated fat in your diet because it will effectively lower LDL "bad" cholesterol.

Firstly, the OP hasn't mentioned cholesterol as a problem, and as newly diagnosed diabetic he would probably be more concerned with getting their BG under control. Secondly your advice is spurious and based on NHS dogma, rather than science.
 

xyzzy

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krazus said:
Im sorry to have caused so many problems folks...

Ill know more tomorrow

You have caused no problems what-so ever krazus. The honest answer is you are a new member and I for one posted on your thread as you don't need to be receiving mixed messages which can confuse at the moment. Loads of us would say the most important thing you need to achieve is getting control of your levels first and worry about cholesterol later. There is rock solid irrefutable evidence that says not controlling your levels leads quite quickly to no end of horrible things and a shortened life whereas the cholesterol question, while important, is secondary in mine and I suspect other posters opinions. I personally organise the risks in my head in the following order blood levels, weight, blood pressure, cholesterol. The honest answer is there are risks associated with all four things I've listed and you may not be able to get perfect management of everything but obviously you should try and get the best management of the highest risk things.

Hope that helps

Steve
 
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xyzzy said:
chalcedony said:
Hi Cultivator. Saturated fat raises your blood cholesterol more than anything else in your diet.

So is there a diet book to follow this Diet? I have just started metformin hBA1c was 11% testing myself I've got down to 9 in the mornings but still need to get lower. BP is already being controlled by tablets and the cholesteral levels are nearing 5.
There is a part of me that says this can't possibly work, then another part of me that says I've got to eat something other than lettuce for the rest of my life so owhat can get me more healthy and keep me sane at the same time!

Appreciating the help that you guys are shelling out!

SS


I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you there simply from experience.

When I was diagnosed T2 last December with an hBA1c of 11.3% or 100 mmol in the new measurements I had followed a classic low fat 5 a day diet where everything was cooked from fresh for most of my life. At that point I had been on statins for two years and despite that my cholesterol level was in the high 5's.

After diagnosis and finding this forum I swapped to a low carb high fat diet similar to that recommended by the Swedish Health care system. My diet is now roughly 15% carbohydrates 65% fat and 20% protein. Of that 15% carbohydrate the vast majority of it is in the form of vegetables. The result after 6 months was an hBA1c reduced to 4.9% (yes FOUR point nine) or 30 mmol and a total cholesterol level of 3.9 with an Tot/HDL Ratio of 3.33. My blood pressure has reduced from 160/95 to 115/75. I've also lost just over 4 stone in weight and rarely feel hungry. I now have a BMI of 23.2 and am still losing weight at roughly a couple of pounds a month. I exercise by walking my dogs for around an hour a day exactly the same amount as I did prior to diagnosis.

I have my gp's and DSN's full support as they can see what I am doing obviously works. I've even come off the statins on my high fat diet at my gp's suggestion as I no longer need them in his opinion. My doctor says my diabetes is "in remission" but like me fully accepts I am not cured. For example if I eat more than around 50g (two level tablespoons) of rice or pasta my levels still spike well into double digits.

I consciously consume saturated fat. I eat cheese, eggs, leave the fat on meat, have bacon and eggs fried in a small amount of olive oil twice a week, eat a fruit salad with sugar free jelly with a good amount of double cream most days in fact yesterday I had a low carb very rich home made chocolate pudding with double cream. I eat roast potatoes when I eat any potatoes at all and put knobs of real butter on the piles of green veg I eat and when I occasionally eat a slice of Burgen bread I make sure it's covered in real butter too as that way it doesn't raise my levels that much. I never buy anything labelled low fat anymore so use full fat yoghurts etc. The only low fat product I still use is semi skimmed milk that I put in my tea and coffee simply because I don't like the taste of full fat milk. I have an Indian takeaway minus the Nan bread and minus most of the rice most weeks but up the calories and quantity by buying extra meat starters and vegetable based bhaji's

I avoid highly processed high carbohydrate foods and trans fats and have never felt healthier. Why do I eat saturated fat? Simply as a source of calories. My current diet works out around 2000 calories a day. If I didn't eat the saturated fat I would be on a starvation diet because I have dropped all the sugar and the vast majority of starchy foods from my diet.

For my diabetes I simply take Metformin and nothing else. My gp says I don't really need the Metformin but recommends I continue it for the health benefits it gives to your heart and not for any diabetic blood levels reducing reasons.

While you can undoubtedly lose weight on a low fat diet that's hardly the point when its carbs that raise your blood levels so adopting a low fat high carb diet may well make you slim but can quite easily lead you to end up as a thin but blind amputee on insulin. Adopting a low carb high fat diet is also scientifically proven countless times to just as successfully promote weight loss and has the benefit that you end up thin and able to see and use all your extremities. What will definitely kill you is a high fat high carb diet.

Many others on this site follow a very similar regime to myself and have done for years with identical results.
 

xyzzy

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suffolkscouser said:

The two classic books are Bersteins : "Diabetes Solution" and Taubes "Why we get fat"

Yes it's all a bit hard to take on board to begin with SS. However when people say "high fat" then you can obviously get the impression of piles of deep fat fried foods etc which is actually no where near the actual truth. When I say I eat 65% fat it's entirely true BUT you have to put it into the context that the different food types, carbohydrates, protein and fat don't all contribute to you calorie intake equally.

Each gram of protein or carbohydrate is normally considered to count as 4 calories whereas each gram of fat contributes 9 calories so more than double the others. Consequently in terms of food you eat you only need just under half the amount of a fat thing compared to the others so a low carb high fat (LCHF) diet doesn't actually end up looking that different to an ordinary one except of course you have dropped most of the starchy foods from your plate.

The issue I find is to end up eating enough calories to not loose weight too quickly which I agree sounds bizzare. Yes I may eat bacon and eggs fried in a smidgeon of olive oil a couple of days a week and eat cheese like a mouse but when you drop the starchy foods you pretty soon find your calorific intake plummets.

Some simple maths shows this. Lets assume for lunch you use to eat two sandwiches one cheese and one ham so 4 slices of healthy wholemeal bread around 400 calories plus 60 g of cheese or another 250 calories plus 75g of ham 100 calories so a total of 750 calories . Compare that to a "fry up" of 2 rashers of bacon, 2 eggs and half a dozen sliced up mushrooms. That works out as roughly 350 calories less than half of the sandwiches yet the bacon and egg fry up would be demonised as high fat!

Now compare the carbohydrate content of both meals. Cheese, ham and bacon are essentially zero carb foods. The four rounds of wholemeal bread well I would guess a good average would be 100g of carbs, two eggs 0.5g of carbs and the mushrooms around 1g of carbs. So the high fat fry up adds of to around 1.5g of carbs and the sandwiches 100g of carbs. Using my meter I determined early on my entire daily tolerance to carbs was around 75g so long as I split those 75 across the entire day. The two healthy sandwiches would spike me to the moon whereas the fry up hardly touches my levels at all and I end up eating half the calories.

Now apply the same principles to all your meals so drop the starch from your main dinner and up your meat and green veg to compensate. Add up the calories in those meals and you find similar results. They are likely to end up as high(er) fat especially if you keep the fat on meat or put butter on the veg but their calorific content will be far far less.

There is no doubt that a low fat diet will work as a diet but have you ever considered why so many people who try a low fat diet fail? The answer is quite interesting and amounts to you needing to have far more will power to continue with the diet as one of the main things fat does is switch off the signals in your brain that keep you feeling hungry. So on a low fat diet you can end up fighting the constant feelings of hunger which is nigh on torture for lots of people. On a low carb high fat diet you don't feel hungry (well I don't) because the fat does what it says on the tin and switches off the hungry feelings after you've eaten. Worse high sugar / carb foods encourage your brain to keep you hungry and want more.

Have you ever consider what a load of low fat processed foods actually are? It turns out when fat is removed it gets replaced by sugars and carbs! Quite a lot of low fat foods may well have very low fat levels but they have more calories than their high fat versions! So those low fat foods never end up filling you up and encourage you to eat more. It's little wonder so few people have the will power to succeed on a low fat high carb diet.

Take a look here for the beginners guide to LCHF http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf Doesn't look particularly radical and dangerous does it yet as a T2 diabetic it could save you sight, your limbs and give you a full life span.
 

krazus

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Right, Just got back, and it is confirmed I am type II. :cry:

Got some figures from my HbA1c test. She said I was 95%, where as most people should be 40-50%...
My Colesterol was 6.7
My blood pressure is fan-bloody-tastic No requirement for meds

I have been given:
40mg of Simvastatin
500mg of Metformin (one tablet for one week, then if fine, 1 morn and 1 in afternoon, then after a week, 2 in morn and afternoon)

Got an appointment on thursday (Think its the nurse)
And another with doc on friday for MH problems.

Diet specialist, foot check and eye pic to follow.

Colesterol blood test in 2 months and HbA1c in 3 months.

:crazy:

comments?
 

anna29

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krazus said:
Right, Just got back, and it is confirmed I am type II. :cry:

Got some figures from my HbA1c test. She said I was 95%, where as most people should be 40-50%...
My Colesterol was 6.7
My blood pressure is fan-bloody-tastic No requirement for meds

I have been given:
40mg of Simvastatin
500mg of Metformin (one tablet for one week, then if fine, 1 morn and 1 in afternoon, then after a week, 2 in morn and afternoon)

Got an appointment on thursday (Think its the nurse)
And another with doc on friday for MH problems.

Diet specialist, foot check and eye pic to follow.

Colesterol blood test in 2 months and HbA1c in 3 months.

:crazy:

comments?
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23279
Hi Krazus.
Have given you this link with things about your clinic follow up appts to read up on.
Its at the end of the link this information.
You have had lots of food/diet advice and support from other forum members.
It must be so confusing for you now...
You will need to take things one step at a time or it can all end up
overwhelming you.
This takes time to sink in and you will need to adapt/adjust to it all .
Ask any questions you feel/need to in the meantime.
We are here to help and support you along.
Anna.
 

Fraddycat

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Hi, glad it went well, you were expecting the diagnosis weren't you? Mind you when they say the actual words its a real choker. You're now on the same meds as me (except I am on a BP med which I am hoping to stop next week). The eye and foot checks are annual and normal, remember to take sunglasses with you to the eye test - and someone else will need to drive.

The dietician - mmm - I have an appt to see my practice dietician on Friday - you can take one of two directions. Extol the virtues of a Low Carb High Fat diet, and expect a bit of an argument, or nod and smile a lot and ignore their advice. They will not advocate LCHF I don't think, unless you are really lucky.

The new you with diabetes starts here, but the changes you make can make you healthier than you have felt for the last couple of years (whilst you have been having undetected high BG) and you can give yourself the best chance against complications by taking control and managing your diabetes.
 

krazus

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Hi Anna29,

thank you for your words, I have looked at the link you posted.

I am very confused at the moment, I am waiting to see what the diet nurse or DSN nurse say about it all, epsecially the diet thing.

My biggest hurdle will be my wife, she is of the mind that fats, especially saturated fats are bad. While I understand this view point and where its been gained from, I hope we BOTH have enough patience to weight all the pro's and cons. So I am still bouncing around in the dark at the moment, I will hopefully know justy a little bit more by the end of the week.

I am however, reducing my carbs anyway... less spuds, brown breads, no processed meat, some tuna, peppers, veg and salad.
Also cutting out choc and fizzy drinks.
Thankfully I have always been a non smoker, and I am almost tea total for 15 yrs... long story.

:thumbup:
 

krazus

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Hi Fraddycat,

cheers, aye its one thing to expect it, quite another for it to be confirmed. One of the things I discussed with doc today, was my already problematic mental health issues and how this is the icing on the cherry on the cake... my appointment on friday is to discuss that subject entirely. :thumbup:

I will be on the exercise bike tonight for sure... and tonight/tomorrow I will start the meds...


I am also going to talk to my bro (Fireman and very active) as both myself and my mum diagnosed (Saw him last week and he has got a bit of a belly, even though he is very active). A friendly heads up. If i had a 1 in 3 chance after my mum, im sure his odds are dropping...
 

MaryJ

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Hi krazus

Re the fats and getting your head round things

A couple of good books

the great cholesterol con - in middle of this at the moment
Why we get fat and what to do about it

Both make perfect sense to help you change your mindset from the past advice.

mary x
 

Grazer

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krazus said:
I am waiting to see what the diet nurse or DSN nurse say about it all, epsecially the diet thing.

That's ok, and you'll need to make your own mind up, but you're likely to get the same bad advice many of us get from the NHS because they don't know better. In my view, you're better off listening to what people on here say, who have the disease and are getting great results. Follow the NHS dieticians advice and you'll be back on here asking why you can't get your BGs under control, or you'll be taking increasing levels of medication and having to accept the downside of that.
 

anna29

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Hi Krazus...
I understand what you mean, its a lot to take on board all at once... :?
With reference to your diet/food plans the nurse or the DSN that talks with you, not 'ALL'
are with the same negative mindset a lot have been trained with - some 'have' changed gradually
understanding 'MORE' about the diet/food plans "really" needed to assist us.
Getting our BG's to on target safe levels.
Lets hope you get one that is prepared to" listen " to your own points and needs!
Its too easy to get given the negative impression that ALL are the same when they are 'not' ...
Some are listening and changing thankfully!
As you make your own mind up with what you choose to do with an everyday routine to
self manage your own diabetes , you will learn as you go along.
A bit at a time - each day makes more sense etc...
We all do this as it is very much an individual journey to each person.
Being unique and individual even my own DSN spouts this one now!!!!
Try and see it as an individual thing you're unique she quips at me...
When we are talking about my own meds/insulin therapy and foods to eat plans.
Think I taught it to her .... or else its only 'me' she says it to?
To keep me sweet when I see her. :p
As I have insisted this mantra chant to her for the last 2years!
Anna.
 

Daibell

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Hi Krazus. The good news is you can have chocolate as long as it's good dark chocolate. I have Green & Blacks 85% but there are others. They are very low carb and healthy in other ways as well.
 

krazus

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Well its very early days yet, only been taking meds for two days.

When I saw my doc on monday I did have a few questions. she mentioned having porridge for breaky... not sure about that.

I asked about self testing, and she said i dont need to do that yet... My wife and I think differently.

Yesterday I printed off most of the diets mentioned on this website and my wife and I have a better understanding of things, she is still against the LCHF, but can see the need to reduce the carbs. Tomorrow I see the DN. Hopefully I will then have a few more appointments under my belt (Foot, eyes, diet).

I finally saw the fabled Bergen bread last night in a large tesco's. we normally shop at a Morrisons (Closest) and I havent seen any in there. Still got some whole meal left, so didnt buy any...
 

anna29

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Hello Kazus.
You and your wife are doing brilliantly even at this early stage for you both.
She is helping and supporting you with your own choice and you are prepareing
your future eating plans and shopping already.
You must choose what you feel is best for you - as you will be self managing your
routine and new lifestyle now.
Keep asking the questions you wish to and request any the information you may need.
There is always someone who will help and support you along.
Anna.
 

krazus

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well i had an interesting chat with the DSN today.

good things:
she has booked me for the eye pic (I will get something in writing.
Also have a Dietition appointment for next friday.
Got a DESMOND course in the pipeline too.
CHecked me feet, they are ok, but i need to moisturise.
Told me that 40% of people with type two eventually need Insulin shots, because its 'progressive'


Bad things:
Pretty much sticking to the NHS party line
Shouldnt replace carbs for fat
Showed her the entry in the NICE guidlines stating that a type two should have monitoring equipment to measure food intake and layers, and while she agreed, and even said "If i had Diabetes I would want one", she told me flat that she cannot give me one, purely because of cost of strips. :x
However when I said I guess i will have to get a meter and record my findings, she gave me a home testing diary leaflet, talk about rubbing it in.
Went to local Boots to price them up, and the dispenser looked sympathetic and said its the same story she hears over and over.


Got an appointment with doc tomorrow about stress and anxiety, I am again going to try and get a monitor, and if not explain with no malice that I will be taking it further (MP, NICE, RDASH - local NHS, etc)

:thumbdown: :thumbdown: