Is there any real difference between LCHF and Keto?

[Guzzler]

Broad and basic questions I have at my personal level of understanding. Is ketosis a result of a strict LCHF diet?
Does one necessarily lead to the other, is there an overlap? I know the difference between nutritional ketosis and ketoacidosis. I made the mistake of buying keto sticks and I am interested in a different (more precise) monitor so recommendations would be appreciated. I have no idea on what would be considered a normal level of ketones or even if that level is idiopathic. TIA

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Is ketosis a result of a strict LCHF diet?

Yes, it is. Personally, I don't worry about it.

 

[Guzzler]

Yes, it is. Personally, I don't worry about it.

So, once you start burning fat it follows that your diet has become ketogenic? That sounds logical. I am not worried about it, I am wondering really about how best to stabilise my weight as I am losing again and approaching the underweight region. If I can understand better the process of the switch between fuels I might get a handle on this.

 

[Kristin251]

I eat ultra low carb. I presume ketosis but I do like my cocktail hitch will kick me out of ketosis. I’m more concerned with my bg and not packing on pounds.

IMO keto sticks are useless. Sleep, rest. Fastings over night, activity, carbs, fat and protein eaten, time of day all change it. Ketosicks measure ketones burned if I recall. Low enough carbs create ketones for us to burn. Too many factors play a roll in how many we burn. I just eat low carb and away I go...

 

[Guzzler]

I eat ultra low carb. I presume ketosis but I do like my cocktail hitch will kick me out of ketosis. I’m more concerned with my bg and not packing on pounds.

IMO keto sticks are useless. Sleep, rest. Fastings over night, activity, carbs, fat and protein eaten, time of day all change it. Ketosicks measure ketones burned if I recall. Low enough carbs create ketones for us to burn. Too many factors play a roll in how many we burn. I just eat low carb and away I go...

Aye, I made the mistake of ordering them and *then* doing the reading. Money down the drain.

 

[Robbity]

I used the Ketostix initially when I started on the Atkins diet induction phase and they showed me that i was producing ketones and excreting them as waste in my urine but not actually burning them. As soon as I started burning them they very quickly stopped showing up in my wee, which completely "confuddled" me until I did my homework.

You can get dual function glucose monitors which will take both ketone and glucose readings, using different test strips: the ketone strips are very expensive. but also very accurate. (These are the method that insulin dependent diabetics would use to check their ketone levels - e.g. for signs of ketoacidosis.)

What I ended up with was a ketone breathalyser - the Ketonicx - which in its early version used a basic traffic lights colour code to indicate no, low, medium or high levels of nutritional ketosis, but is not suitable for checking very high (DKA)ketone levels. It's now a lot more sophisticated and a lot more expensive, but still a on-off cost. You can also get similar but very much cheaper breathalysers for checking alcohol levels and AFAIK these can also be used for checking ketone levels. I believe @bulkbiker may use one of these?

Once you've eaten low enough carbs for long enough, your body makes a chemical change in the way it handles its fuel - i.e. it's now fat or keto adapted, and burns both carbs and nutritional and stored fats. ( The difference being that on a high carb diet, any surplus fuel from carbs can be stored but can't be retrieved and used.) Once you are adapted, AFAIK you don't actually have to be in ketosis, you've just got a more efficient (dual) fuel handling system working for you. Our body will now first use any carbs and nutritional fats, and then if required will also start to burn its stored/body fat. So, losing, maintaining and gaining weight is still a balancing act, depending on whether you eat too little, enough, or too much food for you energy requirements.

Robbity

 

[Guzzler]

I used the Ketostix initially when I started on the Atkins diet induction phase and they showed me that i was producing ketones and excreting them as waste in my urine but not actually burning them. As soon as I started burning them they very quickly stopped showing up in my wee, which completely "confuddled" me until I did my homework.

You can get dual function glucose monitors which will take both ketone and glucose readings, using different test strips: the ketone strips are very expensive. but also very accurate. (These are the method that insulin dependent diabetics would use to check their ketone levels - e.g. for signs of ketoacidosis.)

What I ended up with was a ketone breathalyser - the Ketonicx - which in its early version used a basic traffic lights colour code to indicate no, low, medium or high levels of nutritional ketosis, but is not suitable for checking very high (DKA)ketone levels. It's now a lot more sophisticated and a lot more expensive, but still a on-off cost. You can also get similar but very much cheaper breathalysers for checking alcohol levels and AFAIK these can also be used for checking ketone levels. I believe @bulkbiker may use one of these?

Once you've eaten low enough carbs for long enough, your body makes a chemical change in the way it handles its fuel - i.e. it's now fat or keto adapted, and burns both carbs and nutritional and stored fats. ( The difference being that on a high carb diet, any surplus fuel from carbs can be stored but can't be retrieved and used.) Once you are adapted, AFAIK you don't actually have to be in ketosis, you've just got a more efficient (dual) fuel handling system working for you. Our body will now first use any carbs and nutritional fats, and then if required will also start to burn its stored/body fat. So, losing, maintaining and gaining weight is still a balancing act, depending on whether you eat too little, enough, or too much food for you energy requirements.

Robbity

Thank you, very useful.

 

[bulkbiker]

but very much cheaper breathalysers for checking alcohol levels and AFAIK these can also be used for checking ketone levels. I believe @bulkbiker may use one of these?

Hi
No I use a Caresens Dual meter from the people that sell the TEE2 meter spirit healthcare. I have read conflicting reports on the breathalysers and am so used to pricking my fingers that I thought why not.. Its not cheap as each test costs a £1 so I monitor irregularly.

 

[Begonia]

I used the Ketostix initially when I started on the Atkins diet induction phase and they showed me that i was producing ketones and excreting them as waste in my urine but not actually burning them. As soon as I started burning them they very quickly stopped showing up in my wee, which completely "confuddled" me until I did my homework.

You can get dual function glucose monitors which will take both ketone and glucose readings, using different test strips: the ketone strips are very expensive. but also very accurate. (These are the method that insulin dependent diabetics would use to check their ketone levels - e.g. for signs of ketoacidosis.)

What I ended up with was a ketone breathalyser - the Ketonicx - which in its early version used a basic traffic lights colour code to indicate no, low, medium or high levels of nutritional ketosis, but is not suitable for checking very high (DKA)ketone levels. It's now a lot more sophisticated and a lot more expensive, but still a on-off cost. You can also get similar but very much cheaper breathalysers for checking alcohol levels and AFAIK these can also be used for checking ketone levels. I believe @bulkbiker may use one of these?

Once you've eaten low enough carbs for long enough, your body makes a chemical change in the way it handles its fuel - i.e. it's now fat or keto adapted, and burns both carbs and nutritional and stored fats. ( The difference being that on a high carb diet, any surplus fuel from carbs can be stored but can't be retrieved and used.) Once you are adapted, AFAIK you don't actually have to be in ketosis, you've just got a more efficient (dual) fuel handling system working for you. Our body will now first use any carbs and nutritional fats, and then if required will also start to burn its stored/body fat. So, losing, maintaining and gaining weight is still a balancing act, depending on whether you eat too little, enough, or too much food for you energy requirements.

Robbity

Hi @Robbity,
I've been lowish carbing for about 6 months (about 35-60g carbs). I don't really understand what being 'fat adapted' means as opposed to just being low enough carbs to be in ketosis. Can you point me at a simple explanation please ?

 

[Bluetit1802]

@Guzzler

I believe @CherryAA uses a cheap ordinary breathalyser to check hers. She may be able to help you with this.

Sorry to see you are back to losing weight again. More tweaks on the diet perhaps?

I have never worried about whether I'm in ketosis or not and have never checked my levels.

 

[Guzzler]

@Guzzler

I believe @CherryAA uses a cheap ordinary breathalyser to check hers. She may be able to help you with this.

Sorry to see you are back to losing weight again. More tweaks on the diet perhaps?

I have never worried about whether I'm in ketosis or not and have never checked my levels.

Just bought some decaf coffee so I can swap out the tea for creamed coffee, that should help. It would be better if I could have a posh scan to measure visceral fat but until then it's guess work but I thought measuring ketones might give me extra clues.

 

[Guzzler]

Hi
No I use a Caresens Dual meter from the people that sell the TEE2 meter spirit healthcare. I have read conflicting reports on the breathalysers and am so used to pricking my fingers that I thought why not.. Its not cheap as each test costs a £1 so I monitor irregularly.

One or two test per month sound reasonable?

 

[bulkbiker]

One or two test per month sound reasonable?

I tend to do one a week.. on a Friday when I do my full weight, body fat, visceral fat,BMI recording.. but then again I'm a creature of habit..

 

[CherryAA]

@Guzzler

I believe @CherryAA uses a cheap ordinary breathalyser to check hers. She may be able to help you with this.

Sorry to see you are back to losing weight again. More tweaks on the diet perhaps?

I have never worried about whether I'm in ketosis or not and have never checked my levels.

Thanks for tagging me on this. I'm actually quite keen on knowing my ketone levels, I find that a cheap breathalyser does reflect ketones fairly well. Currently I am recording blood ketones of 0.5 mmol, ( out £1 per strip) ketonix ketones of 2.4 £150 ish but then unlimited and my cheap breathalyser £10. from amazon is recording 0.5 and bleeping don't drive !

 

[BrianTheElder]

I use an On-Call ketone meter because the strips are the cheapest I can find and that is important because I use them daily.
The meter itself is available from Amazon at about £30. Amazon also sell the strips, but I buy them from Value Med. The last 50 I bought cost £37.98, about 76p each.
I use them daily because I am trying to build up a picture. I always notice variations and try to work out what I have done wrong! There is a nice gentle undulation to the readings, which I think shows they are pretty accurate.
I shall cut down after about a year when I understand more.

 

[Robbity]

Hi @Robbity,
I've been lowish carbing for about 6 months (about 35-60g carbs). I don't really understand what being 'fat adapted' means as opposed to just being low enough carbs to be in ketosis. Can you point me at a simple explanation please ?

I can really only repeat what i said in my post -- to be fat adapted you need to be eating few enough carbs for long enough for your body to make a chemical change which switches in your body's natural ability to burn fuel from fats as well as from carbs/glucose. What's low enough depends on the individual and is generally below 50g carbs a day so your diet can be either LCHF or ketogenic. In ketosis you are actually creating ketones but you may or may not be fat adapted (yet). Alternatively you can be fat adapted and may or may not also be creating any ketones. What I've only very recently understood is that when fat adapted we're using fatty acids for our energy; I'd assumed ithe ability to burn fats was ketone related - because of "nutritional ketosis" which I believe is simply identifying the point in the ketosis scale at which this can occur...
.
A sort-of-definition from https://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-fat-adapted/#axzz4CzdWeCqF:
"Fat-adaption does not necessarily mean ketosis.
Ketosis is ketosis. Fat-adaption describes the ability
to burn both fat directly via beta-oxidation and glucose
via glycolysis, while ketosis describes the use of fat-derived
ketone bodies by tissues (like parts of the brain) that normally
use glucose.,,"

See also Amy Bergers Tuit Nutrition blog - http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/09/measuring-ketones.html -
her section that explains the difference between ketosis and running on fat, is down under the section Ketogenesis: How and Why Do We Make Ketones? Also: Fat Adaptation versus Ketosis).

Happy reading!!


Robbity