LCHF and FASTING or EAT WELL PLATE? Or something else?!

[Kyi]

You will probably end up with more answers than its possible to process. Personally if I was you, Id stick with losing the weight, cutting back on the carbs. You are not yet in the diabetic range and can eat some carbohydrates just not every meal like the well plate recommends.

 

[dbr10]

In relation to the eatwell plate and reducing my HbA1c to 31....the nurse didn't seem to know herself (next time I'll make sure my appointment is with the diabetic nurse!) but from what I've read online (Dr Fung, Diet Doctor etc) it seems more restriction is needed, especially with the obvious of cakes biscuits sweets etc but carbs too. Yet the leaflet I was given also states "The idea that you need special foods if you have prediabetes or diabetes is a myth. Basically, you should aim to eat a diet low in fat, high in fibre and with plenty of starchy foods, fruit and vegetables." So contradictory and confusing!

Yes. Undermines your confidence in the NHS treatment on top of the blow of being diagnosed.

 

[Pinkorchid]

But we kept telling you to reduce your carbs still further, and you wouldn't saying you didn't want to lose more weight. We also advised that taking statins would make you more likely to become T2. You replied saying that your doctor knew best. I remember a friend of mine going out of his way to help you and you were very rude to him and said that your diet was fine and worked for you. Obviously it didn't.

Sorry but I don't remember ever being rude to anyone here. I don't consider saying my diet was fine and working for me just because I ate a few more carbs than recommended was being rude isn't that what we all want whatever way that works for us I do know some people here can get very tetchy and even rude if someone doesn't follow what they say they should be doing but are doing it a bit different Some people have said here they have been upset by things said to them What I do still works and I have good BG levels so I don't need to lower my carbs anymore now than I did then. I very much doubt if stopping the statins would have resulted in any other outcome I have been taking them for years but I would never say others should take them or not. I would not stop them anyway without my doctors agreement they were prescribed for a reason.

 

[zand]

Sorry but I don't remember ever being rude to anyone here. I don't consider saying my diet was fine and working for me just because I ate a few more carbs than recommended was being rude isn't that what we all want whatever way that works for us I do know some people here can get very tetchy and even rude if someone doesn't follow what they say they should be doing but are doing it a bit different Some people have said here they have been upset by things said to them What I do still works and I have good BG levels so I don't need to lower my carbs anymore now than I did then. I very much doubt if stopping the statins would have resulted in any other outcome I have been taking them for years but I would never say others should take them or not. I would not stop them anyway without my doctors agreement they were prescribed for a reason.

Oh maybe I am getting muddled up then. Perhaps it wasn't you. I remember a newbie called Maybird getting lots of advice from someone who used to post here. It seems she didn't like the advice to follow LCHF (particularly the HF bit) and a 'friend' of hers called AnnieC joined and made a lot of trouble for my friend, goading him at every opportunity. I call that rude when someone has done their best to help a stranger on a forum. As I recall Maybird and AnnieC were the ones who got upset by being advised to follow LCHF. I can't think why, but these two posters remind me a lot of you.

I beg to differ that your diet works. This thread is about the OP, not you or me. The OP is pre-diabetic and I for one want to help her to stay that way and then get back to normal BGs. Your diet did not help you do that. You had the benefit of a pre-diabetic diagnosis and failed to stop T2 in its tracks. I never had the benefit of that diagnosis so I wasted time trying to find out what was wrong with me and became T2 too. I want the newbies of today and tomorrow to fare better than you and me and to succeed. That's why I responded to your first post on this thread. You made it sound like you had done everything possible to stop T2 in its tracks, but from previous threads about high carb 'treats' by yourself we both know this isn't true. I didn't want you to mislead the OP into thinking that T2 is inevitable. It isn't. That's why I posted. I have no wish to get into another war of words with you, but I won't let anyone undermine the efforts of someone who asks for advice. Your own post gave no advice at all, it just sowed negative seeds of doubt. Not helpful in my book.

@preRR Thanks so much for starting this thread and please keep asking questions if you have any. It's a joy to help someone with an open mind. I am sure you will achieve that HbA1c of 31 if you follow the advice on this thread. You've given me something to aim for in the future too.

 

[preRR]

You will probably end up with more answers than its possible to process. Personally if I was you, Id stick with losing the weight, cutting back on the carbs. You are not yet in the diabetic range and can eat some carbohydrates just not every meal like the well plate recommends.

Thank you...yes I think more than anything it's alerted me to how many carbs I eat...I'm learning lots about the one food group I've unintentionally ignored in all the years I've tried to lose weight...even though I would look at the 'of which sugars' but I never really looked at the overall carbs because of the whole "you need carbs for energy" belief. From what I've learned so far it can only do me good to cut back the carbs

 

[preRR]

The OP is pre-diabetic and I for one want to help her to stay that way and then get back to normal BGs.

Awww! Thank you!!! Lots of support on here to help me and others

 

[Pinkorchid]

Oh maybe I am getting muddled up then. Perhaps it wasn't you. I remember a newbie called Maybird getting lots of advice from someone who used to post here. It seems she didn't like the advice to follow LCHF (particularly the HF bit) and a 'friend' of hers called AnnieC joined and made a lot of trouble for my friend, goading him at every opportunity. I call that rude when someone has done their best to help a stranger on a forum. As I recall Maybird and AnnieC were the ones who got upset by being advised to follow LCHF. I can't think why, but these two posters remind me a lot of you.

I beg to differ that your diet works. This thread is about the OP, not you or me. The OP is pre-diabetic and I for one want to help her to stay that way and then get back to normal BGs. Your diet did not help you do that. You had the benefit of a pre-diabetic diagnosis and failed to stop T2 in its tracks. I never had the benefit of that diagnosis so I wasted time trying to find out what was wrong with me and became T2 too. I want the newbies of today and tomorrow to fare better than you and me and to succeed. That's why I responded to your first post on this thread. You made it sound like you had done everything possible to stop T2 in its tracks, but from previous threads about high carb 'treats' by yourself we both know this isn't true. I didn't want you to mislead the OP into thinking that T2 is inevitable. It isn't. That's why I posted. I have no wish to get into another war of words with you, but I won't let anyone undermine the efforts of someone who asks for advice. Your own post gave no advice at all, it just sowed negative seeds of doubt. Not helpful in my book.

@preRR Thanks so much for starting this thread and please keep asking questions if you have any. It's a joy to help someone with an open mind. I am sure you will achieve that HbA1c of 31 if you follow the advice on this thread. You've given me something to aim for in the future too.

I certainly have never goaded anyone on this forum I would not do something so childish we are adults not children and I am sure I would have been suspended if that had been the case that is not my style.You can beg to differ all you like about my diet that is your prerogative but no one is an expert on what is best for someone else
Now I bow out of this silly conversation and will not comment again and I apologise to the OP that they had their thread derailed so unnecessarily

 

[statler]

Thanks again all!

Quite a lot of trial and error ahead then!...Feeling anxious!

I'm thinking as a starting point...reducing the obvious sugary stuff (for me that's mainly chocolate and cake)...lowering my carb intake but not total elimination...and trying non low-calorie/low-fat versions of things...those 3 steps for me are quite big changes!!!

That sounds like a good plan to me. Some of us have a couple of squares of 70%+ dark chocolate when we feel the need. I started with Lindt 70% and have now worked up to 99%. The taste is so strong you don't need much. Check the packs though as some dark chocolate is still quite high in carbs. Lidl and Tesco sell their own which is OK too. I can't help you with cake because I've never really been that keen on cakes, but there are lots of recipes around the forum if you are good at baking. (I'm not!)

 

[Stevia_queen]

I've been recently diagnosed pre diabetic and I've lowered my bs from 6.4 to 5.4 in the past week by cutting out carbs. eat protein and have full fat yoghurt and strawberries or cheese for 1 snack in between each meal but i notice i get very hungry after 2 hours and my bloods go up from 4.3 straight after eating to 6.0 - 2 hours after eating. I'm hungry straight after eating then my hunger goes after 30 minutes for an hour and i start to get hungry again. right now I'm starving. I admit I've been on very low calorie intake and no carbs. am i doing it right? today I've been under 6 all day for first time this week.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

I've been recently diagnosed and I've lowered my bs from 6.4 to 5.4 in the past week by cutting out carbs. eat protein and have full fat yoghurt and strawberries or cheese for 1 snack in between each meal but i notice i get very hungry after 2 hours and my bloods go up from 4.3 straight after eating to 6.0 - 2 hours after eating. I'm hungry straight after eating then my hunger goes after 30 minutes for an hour and i start to get hungry again. right now I'm starving. I admit I've been on very low calorie intake and no carbs. am i doing it right? today I've been under 6 all day for first time this week.

Sounds like you're not eating enough. How many calories a day do you aim for?

 

[SunnyExpat]

I've been recently diagnosed and I've lowered my bs from 6.4 to 5.4 in the past week by cutting out carbs. eat protein and have full fat yoghurt and strawberries or cheese for 1 snack in between each meal but i notice i get very hungry after 2 hours and my bloods go up from 4.3 straight after eating to 6.0 - 2 hours after eating. I'm hungry straight after eating then my hunger goes after 30 minutes for an hour and i start to get hungry again. right now I'm starving. I admit I've been on very low calorie intake and no carbs. am i doing it right? today I've been under 6 all day for first time this week.

It depends on your previous diet.
If you were overeating, it takes a while to reset your body, as the old habits keep trying to kick in.
This is one of the reasons the Newcastle Diet is so successful for many.
Your BG sounds excellent though.

 

[Stevia_queen]

Sounds like you're not eating enough. How many calories a day do you aim for?

I guess i don't aim for calories i just eat 3 no carb meals a day (fish or chicken with low carb veg eggs and spinach for breakfast) and 2 snacks (yoghurt and strawberries) but I've checked a few of my meals and its been around 800 calories a day. i did over eat for most of my life, I'm overweight, but reduced my eating a lot and cut down on carbs the past year. thing is as I'm reducing my carbs and sugar i get told I'm pre diabetic for 1st time in my life. always had good blood pressure although my cholesterol is a bit high the last year due to lower carbs more cheeses n stuff.
maybe I'm not eating enough and its too drastic too quickly but i found the first few days of monitoring my bs wasn't coming down i was getting after food reads of 7 - 9.8. so i took drastic action.
I used to be able to go a whole day without eating when i was eating carbs a lot.
Ive just had a before bed snack (and I'm still hungry! belly feels empty) as advised to keep dawn phenomenon down and tis worked 2 days in a row. tonight I'm questioning if i can keep this up!

 

[Stevia_queen]

It depends on your previous diet.
If you were overeating, it takes a while to reset your body, as the old habits keep trying to kick in.
This is one of the reasons the Newcastle Diet is so successful for many.
Your BG sounds excellent though.

Ill check out the Newcastle diet - does it involved swearing a lot cos i feel like it right now - very dizzy before bed. feel like I'm stoned was gonna pass out in the kitchen so i ate some cheese. still feel dizzy gonna go sleep it off. lol -

 

[preRR]

I guess i don't aim for calories i just eat 3 no carb meals a day (fish or chicken with low carb veg eggs and spinach for breakfast) and 2 snacks (yoghurt and strawberries

I'm following the advice of Dr Fung and Andreas Eenfeldt (Diet Doctor)...they suggest not just low carb-high fat but also intermittent fasting...there's plenty of science behind it that you can find the detail of by Googling them or viewing their videos in YouTube...but basically they suggest the more often you eat the less chance your insulin and therefore sugar levels have to return to normal levels. I have lowered sugar/carbs and only eat a during an 8-10 hour window in the day (or less), usually between around 1pm and 10pm....I got used to this surprisingly quickly. I only eat 2 meals a day most days, and usually a snack between...so in a typical day a lunch at 1pm-ish (e.g chicken salad and cous cous portion of 50-100g weighed), snack at 4:30pm-ish (eg. Cheese, cucumber, peppers) and meal at 8pm-ish (eg. Salmon and veg stir fry with half packet of microwave Tilda wholegrain rice)...after last meal I might also have some raspberries and nuts or small amount of choc...But I've only reduced and not cut out sugar/carbs...for me that was too severe and I was only just into the pre-diabetic range. Dr Fung and Dr Eenfeldt believe it's the fasting that's the most beneficial and along with reduced sugar/carbs it seems to be working for me. My sugars have dropped from 42.1 to 36.something in 12 weeks (on the HbAc1 tests).
Prior to this I'd been eating breakfast, morning snack, lunch, afternoon snack, tea, evening snack....this was always low fat-high carb and my treats were always really sugary.
I now feel less hungry and eat a lot less but it did take a few weeks at first of putting up with stomach rumbles and headaches. I've also had bad days where I've ate the likes of crisps/choc but nowhere near the amount that I would have had before.

I'll be posting more detail about my last few months to try to help people in similar situations once I've seen a nurse later this week to discuss my latest results...I've only had the results because I had an appointment for something else.

What works for me may not for you but I hope you make some progress and find something that works, good luck


Sent from my iPhone using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[hooha]

Torq we can only advise on what works for ourselves, and maybe mention what didn't. I can't advise someone to follow a diet that didn't work for me. I don't see anything wrong with starting with LCHF and modifying it to suit oneself and then trying something different if necessary. Surely it makes sense to start with the diet that seems to help most people? My GP gave me a low GL diet. I put on 8 pounds in 2 weeks. I can't honestly tell someone else that's a good choice. If LCHF doesn't work for the OP then they can try something else.

It's carbs together with fat that causes the problem. So an alternative would be HCLF. However realistically this is only suitable for vegetarians/vegans because anyone who eats meat would probably already be having too much fat to be LF anyway. To my mind LCHF is preferable because we all need a certain amount of fat in our diet. Carbs aren't necessary, so it makes sense to reduce carbs and increase fat.

I did a HCLF low cal diet for 7 weeks and suffered for it, that's why I can't advise anyone else to follow it. You yourself usually follow LCHF so I don't know what your problem is. It's up to the individual to choose. I'm not forcing them to do what I say. I'm just giving my point of view. If that doesn't suit someone then they will soon find out and try another option: everyone has to start somewhere.

Dear Zand '' It's carbs together with fat that causes the problem'' ? But Ancel Keys is discredited now.
I understand it is NOT the dietary Fat which is the problem . It is the excess of Carbs which are then changed via a special metabolic pathway into LIVER FAT and it is this Liver Fat which causes all the problems. The latest thinking is that dietary fat is ok , as long as it is healthy fat, ie. olive oil , coconut oil, canola , butter, cream, and a reasonable amount of normal fat with the meats. So there is little disadvantage to the LCHF diet for most people. Cholesterol ?
I read that a small percentage of people might find their blood cholesterol increased by eating a lot of cholesterol [ eg. eggs ] but for most people dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol either.

 

[zand]

Dear Zand '' It's carbs together with fat that causes the problem'' ? But Ancel Keys is discredited now.
I understand it is NOT the dietary Fat which is the problem . It is the excess of Carbs which are then changed via a special metabolic pathway into LIVER FAT and it is this Liver Fat which causes all the problems. The latest thinking is that dietary fat is ok , as long as it is healthy fat, ie. olive oil , coconut oil, canola , butter, cream, and a reasonable amount of normal fat with the meats. So there is little disadvantage to the LCHF diet for most people. Cholesterol ?
I read that a small percentage of people might find their blood cholesterol increased by eating a lot of cholesterol [ eg. eggs ] but for most people dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol either.

Huh? What has Ancel Keys got to do with this? I follow LCHF, and I reckon that's the best way, but it's not the only way. I agree dietary fat is OK. Where do I say fat is not OK? Have a look at this old thread of mine.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/my-5-day-dairy-fat-fast.81433/

Do you really think I am against fats?

Please read my whole post (particularly that whole paragraph) and don't pick out just one phrase out of context. I said carbs plus fat is problematic. Not that fat per se was problematic. So LCHF is good. Others (not me)find that they can do HCLF and prefer it. This forum is now very pro LCHF, (as am I) but I do think we should also mention other methods of controlling diabetes too for those who find other methods more suitable. Have a look at post 199 on this old thread...

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/lchf-diet-to-help-you-lose-weight-not-diabetes.65746/page-10

It was an eye opener to me. I still prefer LCHF because it works for me, but each to his own.

This thread was about the various alternatives someone with pre-diabetes might have to control their BGs. The eatwell plate is not a good choice because it has 'moderate' amounts of both carbs and fat. Hence my comment which may not have been best expressed in the phrase you picked out ( I am no wordsmith, sorry) but was certainly clarified in the rest of the paragraph that you omitted from your quote.

Re cholesterol I am a firm believer that the body will find it's own correct level and we shouldn't mess with it. If we have 'high' cholesterol then that's what we need. Why would our bodies make it if we don't need it? I have a theory that those who have higher cholesterol on say eggs and/or dairy simply have a mild intolerance to them and therefore need a higher cholesterol level to protect them from inflammation and damage. Just my own thoughts though.

 

[hooha]

Huh? What has Ancel Keys got to do with this? I follow LCHF, and I reckon that's the best way, but it's not the only way. I agree dietary fat is OK. Where do I say fat is not OK? Have a look at this old thread of mine.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/my-5-day-dairy-fat-fast.81433/

Do you really think I am against fats?

Please read my whole post (particularly that whole paragraph) and don't pick out just one phrase out of context. I said carbs plus fat is problematic. Not that fat per se was problematic. So LCHF is good. Others (not me)find that they can do HCLF and prefer it. This forum is now very pro LCHF, (as am I) but I do think we should also mention other methods of controlling diabetes too for those who find other methods more suitable. Have a look at post 199 on this old thread...

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/lchf-diet-to-help-you-lose-weight-not-diabetes.65746/page-10

It was an eye opener to me. I still prefer LCHF because it works for me, but each to his own.

Re cholesterol I am a firm believer that the body will find it's own correct level and we shouldn't mess with it. If we have 'high' cholesterol then that's what we need. Why would our bodies make it if we don't need it? I have a theory that those who have higher cholesterol on say eggs and/or dairy simply have a mild intolerance to them and therefore need a higher cholesterol level to protect them from inflammation and damage. Just my own thoughts though.

Ancel Keys was the man who got the whole western world fearing fat. He distorted his results in the Seven Countries Study and gave us 50 years of wrong advice.
The food manufacturers took the fat out of the food and then put in sugar. The sugar and carbs are the problem as they cause LIVER FAT. The fat you might eat along with your carbs is not a problem, in fact eating fat helps your carbs to be absorbed more slowly. So if you gotta eat carbs, eat em along with fat. Loads of butter on your bread !

 

[zand]

Ancel Keys was the man who got the whole western world fearing fat. He distorted his results in the Seven Countries Study and gave us 50 years of wrong advice.
The food manufacturers took the fat out of the food and then put in sugar. The sugar and carbs are the problem as they cause LIVER FAT. The fat you might eat along with your carbs is not a problem, in fact eating fat helps your carbs to be absorbed more slowly. So if you gotta eat carbs, eat em along with fat. Loads of butter on your bread !

I understand all of that. I know the carbs are the problem. I have been trying to lose weight for over 35 years. You are totally missing my point! Eating loads of carbs and loads of fat will not help control diabetes. It may slow down the spikes, but that's all, the insulin resistance will remain. It also will not help improve fatty liver. My point was that HCLF is an alternative that some folks (mostly vegetarians) choose and it too works. LCHF is one way, there are others, really there are, but eating lots of fat and lots of carbs is not one of them because it's a sure way to gain weight.

Did you actually read the threads I mentioned? Here's another.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/help-i-have-so-much-weight-to-lose.55901/

btw my once fatty liver is now 'normal'

 

[kokhongw]

So if you gotta eat carbs, eat em along with fat. Loads of butter on your bread !

You've got to be kidding!