LCHF isn't working.

[poshtotty]

Eating carbs at all is an option.

Cue! @NoCrbs4Me

 

[zand]

LCHF means having less than 130g carbs daily according to Trudi Deakin

 

[bulkbiker]

read my post. You can see I am not against low carbing. I am against telling newbies that they need to severely reduce their carbs, right from the word go, and being pushy about the potential consequences if they dont severely reduce their carbs below 50g.

We often, on this forum, point out the scare mongering in the media. I am protesting against scaremongering and extreme advice to newbie, before they even have got to grips with the idea of self testing even. I think it is unecessary and counterproductive.

Sorry but I disagree it's scaremongering.. if we have insulin resistance then ingesting carbs is not good. We want to stop producing excess insulin and the best way to do that is fasting and lowering carb consumption. There are quite a few people who try cutting carbs "a bit" and don't get the benefits of becoming a fat burner rather than a carb burner. Cutting carbs dramatically(along with intermittent fasting) is the best way for a non medicated Type 2 to 'normalise" their blood sugars. I think we should advise it more.. the "oh low carb is less than 130g per day" probably doesn't help that much as 130g per day will not allow you to switch your metabolism from glucose to fat, or at least not in most people. I think it would be far better for most to drastically cut carbs at first and the re-introduce to see where either weight loss stops or blood glucose control worsens and that would be their upper limit for carb consumption. I believe that is the reason we get people saying LCHF isn't working.

 

[zand]

You don't necessarily need to switch your metabolism from glucose to fat. Eating fewer carbs may be enough for some people to get their BGs back into the normal range. Why use a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

 

[lovinglife]

We all have our own way of doing this for our own personal reasons - as long as it works for you that's fine but it's our own diabetes no one else's. advice is just that advice - not instructions, rules or compulsory - I don't give a name to what I do - I just call it my lifestyle MY lifestyle - we all, me included give out advice to people we don't know who tell us only the things they want us to know - sometimes we need to remember that many people also have other issues around food they may not always disclose (I include myself in that)

 

[KimWheeler]

Maybe stop the IF for a bit and see if things improve. I know it didn't work for me.

It didn't work for me either. My body thought I was starving it and started to hoard everything as fat ! ALL around my middle!

 

[KimWheeler]

When did Low Carbing mean under 30g a day? it seems to be creeping ever lower. It used to be under 130g a day. Is this a new development, to tell people to go ever lower before they have even tried a higher figure? I find this lowering of the definition of Low Carb disturbing and potentially dangerous.

Spare me the cries of "dont you care about amputation and eyesight" of course I do. But I also care about the overall health and well being of people embarking on this long journey with diabetes. The pressure to drop and drop carb levels right from the word go is, and being told that 100g of carbs is too high is, I believe, off putting and may not even be necessary.

Can we have some moderation in newbie suggestions please.

I know it should be trial and error but when I wasn't losing on 60g a Diabetes nurse told me I had to increase to 150g . That cost me a year and 5kg gain. I only started improving when I was under 20g carbs. HBA1C today was 49. So people should be told the whole story.

 

[Mbaker]

I would have at least wanted the information, without reservation. Personally I was not doing well with a 134 HbA1c, in fact in hindsight it looks like I was on my way out. If I had my way my research would not have lead me to sites talking about all of the complications, but straight to a site that said directly, as a Type 2 here are your options. I realise that not everyone would want stark information with practical options such as LCHF, Newcastle Diet, Fasting, with bullet points with the advice - I would have done much better on bacon, eggs, mushrooms than months of low GI. I would have liked to know immediately to focus on diet mainly rather than hours of exercise.

 

[Guzzler]

It seems clear that LCHF does not work for everyone but it does work for a lot of T2s not on medication. Thus, it is a good practice to start off lowering carbs and if you are one for whom this approach fails then there are alternative ways to try to control bg. Just because it fails for the minority does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
As for advice given to newly dx T2s, I was scared by my DN and never by the advice I was given on becoming a member here. What is frightening about giving up the baddies? No, the really scary thing for me was that had I not found this group I would continue to be scared of the DN/GP whilst being told to use the EatWell method and perhaps failing leading to being prescribed drugs and more drugs....
The question of how low one goes re carbs is personal to us all. After a brief struggle, I hit a number that I am (for the present) comfortable with. It matters not a jot to me what others' threshold is and why should it?

 

[bulkbiker]

You don't necessarily need to switch your metabolism from glucose to fat. Eating fewer carbs may be enough for some people to get their BGs back into the normal range. Why use a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

Maybe some don't "need" to but boy does it help if you do.. surely that would be good advice?

 

[Mbaker]

I know it should be trial and error but when I wasn't losing on 60g a Diabetes nurse told me I had to increase to 150g . That cost me a year and 5kg gain. I only started improving when I was under 20g carbs. HBA1C today was 49. So people should be told the whole story.

The value of being given all the options up front that other diabetics know to work. Although I got non-diabetic numbers I had to wipe myself out physically, by following a harder (in my view) protocol.

 

[AloeSvea]

Cue! @NoCrbs4Me

Well, of course zero-carbers know already that carbs at all are an option. I thought all LCHFers knew it too, actually .

And I agree - options are great!

Good that diabetics treating with diet know the facts in order to come up with a good plan for themselves. Including personal taste - ie - how much carby food NOT to eat?! Is a good question. For each of us. I don't think grams - I think food. But I am not a numbers person. ie fruit? should I grab a chip of my partner's plate? That kind of thing.

Scaremongering. Yeah. I don't like it either. Not at all. Especially from non-diabetics. But. I do do it to myself. I want to live as long as I can.That's how I kept myself off the sugar at the beginning, and now low carbing. Absolutely. But in frank conversations in face to face to other diabetics, no, I never do that. It's too cruel, absolutely.

But in diabetes forums, and in face to face with people I love? I talk turkey. Absolutely. (And to waiters, which my daughter HATES lol.) ("Hmmm, do I want to eat your sugary salad dressing? Or not die too early from a stroke? Gee - what a difficult decision!")

 

[Indy51]

58% of protein converts to bg via gluconeogenis, especially in the absense of carbs.

Kristin, I was wondering where you got that figure? There's a study (of Type 2 diabetic males) that tests the conversion using 100g of lean beef and only 2g of that converted to glucose and blood glucose levels didn't change: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11238483/

 

[Kristin251]

Kristin, I was wondering where you got that figure? There's a study (of Type 2 diabetic males) that tests the conversion using 100g of lean beef and only 2g of that converted to glucose and blood glucose levels didn't change: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/11238483/

Google the insulin index. Most proteins require over 50% insulin. Rosedale and Bernstein talk about it. That's why tyoen2's need to bolus for 50% protein. Protein raises me as much as carbs.

 

[Indy51]

Google the insulin index. Most proteins require over 50% insulin. Rosedale and Bernstein talk about it. That's why tyoen2's need to bolus for 50% protein. Protein raises me as much as carbs.

Of course I know what the insulin index is. I'm still confused as to what it (and how much insulin type 1s on LCHF need to bolus for protein) has to do with gluconeogenesis in type 2s like the OP.

Maybe I've missed something in my reading, but I don't think gluconeogenesis is the mechanism for protein raising BG in type1s. As far as I know, protein isn't an issue for type 1s not on LCHF. Doesn't the incretin effect come into the equation as well? Wondering if @tim2000s can clarify for me?

 

[tim2000s]

Of course I know what the insulin index is. I'm still confused as to what it (and how much insulin type 1s on LCHF need to bolus for protein) has to do with gluconeogenesis in type 2s like the OP.

Maybe I've missed something in my reading, but I don't think gluconeogenesis is the mechanism for protein raising BG in type1s. As far as I know, protein isn't an issue for type 1s not on LCHF. Doesn't the incretin effect come into the equation as well? Wondering if @tim2000s can clarify for me?

Hi Indy, my take on it is that you have a couple of factors affecting Type 1s. It's not a straightforward gluconeogenesis (GNG) equation.

Typically GNG raises glucose levels at around the 3-6 hour mark, and not immediately after eating. However, in order to use amino acids taken from protein, you need insulin, and typically, due to the reduced increase in blood glucose from protein, the body uses glucagon to offset the insulin it would normally release. In T1, obviously, there's no insulin release, but you still get glucagon and GLP-1 instructing the liver to release glucose, hence requiring an insulin bolus. So effectively, yes, the incretin effect.

There's quite a bit more on that here: http://www.diabettech.com/diabetes/why-isnt-glucagon-suppression-part-of-diabetes-treatment/ The key take away is that when that protein is eaten with carbohydrate, the signalling to release glucose in response to the absent insulin signal doesn't happen, which is why you tend not to see the same effects in T1s eating non-low carbohydrate.

The other thing to be aware of is that the "58g of protein per 100g is converted to glucose by gluconeogenesis" is usually applied only to amounts greater than about 30g of protein when eating normally, and as very few meals that most people eat contain that much protein, it has little effect. For me personally, when I eat higher protein content meals, I can see my glucose levels not coming down 3-4 hours later and requiring an additional bolus, when using MDI.

 

[frankbegbie]

I don't think I can eat much more fat at the moment.
Changed to Double Cream now in my tea and also consume some from the container straight.Plenty of Bacon and Eggs.
Belly Pork and Chicken Thighs Cheese.

Also just got the results of my Bowel Cancer screening, ( the second test).
Confirms there's an abnormal result, and have to see a Consultant then probably a Colonoscopy test in the near future.

Just hoping its nothing to do with this diet. Pretty confident it's nothing; I get plenty of roughage in my diet from Veg.

 

[Oldvatr]

I don't think I can eat much more fat at the moment.
Changed to Double Cream now in my tea and also consume some from the container straight.Plenty of Bacon and Eggs.
Belly Pork and Chicken Thighs Cheese.

Also just got the results of my Bowel Cancer screening, ( the second test).
Confirms there's an abnormal result, and have to see a Consultant then probably a Colonoscopy test in the near future.

Just hoping its nothing to do with this diet. Pretty confident it's nothing; I get plenty of roughage in my diet from Veg.

Looking back at some of your earlier postings here, it would seem to me that maybe you are overdoing the fat, and possibly the protein too. This may be why the diet seems to be stalled, since protein will also push up bgl, and fat will emphasise any Insulin Resistance you have. The fasting will help overcome that, but maybe small reduction in the fat and protein would also help since they may be working against you here. Just a thought. You do not seem to be on any meds, so if you decide to stop LCHF, then the Newcastle diet may be suitable instead, so worth a looksee?

 

[frankbegbie]

Looking back at some of your earlier postings here, it would seem to me that maybe you are overdoing the fat, and possibly the protein too. This may be why the diet seems to be stalled, since protein will also push up bgl, and fat will emphasise any Insulin Resistance you have. The fasting will help overcome that, but maybe small reduction in the fat and protein would also help since they may be working against you here. Just a thought. You do not seem to be on any meds, so if you decide to stop LCHF, then the Newcastle diet may be suitable instead, so worth a looksee?

That's my way of thinking; maybe too much protein?
Borrowed the Carbs and Cals book from the Library the other day.
Might be able to figure something out from that.
I seem to have a bit more energy the last few days.
So I at leaste have something positive for a change.

I couldn't see myself surviving on a low calorie diet, I like to be a bit active.

 

[Dinet]

Sorry but I disagree it's scaremongering.. if we have insulin resistance then ingesting carbs is not good. We want to stop producing excess insulin and the best way to do that is fasting and lowering carb consumption. There are quite a few people who try cutting carbs "a bit" and don't get the benefits of becoming a fat burner rather than a carb burner. Cutting carbs dramatically(along with intermittent fasting) is the best way for a non medicated Type 2 to 'normalise" their blood sugars. I think we should advise it more.. the "oh low carb is less than 130g per day" probably doesn't help that much as 130g per day will not allow you to switch your metabolism from glucose to fat, or at least not in most people. I think it would be far better for most to drastically cut carbs at first and the re-introduce to see where either weight loss stops or blood glucose control worsens and that would be their upper limit for carb consumption. I believe that is the reason we get people saying LCHF isn't working.

sounds good provided ppl do stick to "advise" only. Otherwise it s more like saying it's "my way of the highway"