Nightmare diabetes appointment

smidge

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Oh it's been one of those days! I had an appointment at the hospital with my consultant this afternoon - I was dreading it as a recent week with a sensor attached had shown lots of high spikes and a handful of lows - lows mainly in the mid to high 3s with two in the high 2s; highs up to 16 but mostly 11 to 14. Overall, a tiny proportion of my time was spent below target maybe 2 or 3% but more than 25% of my time above target - mostly overnight. So, I wanted to discuss how we tackle the blippiness without compromising the HbA1c - basically how do we start trying to smooth out the profile. I knew that would be a challenging discussion and I expected the diabetes team to push me to increase my HbA1.

Anyway, almost as soon as I arrived I got called in by a young woman I'd never met. She introduced herself as the dietician and said she wanted to talk me through the results and her and her colleagues' observations. I can't say I was really happy to talk to a dietician, but I thought there could be no real harm in it. She wanted to discuss the 'hypos' - I explained I didn't see most of them as hypos as they were above 3.4mmol - she said 'even so' and continued on about the hypos. I said I wanted help addressing the spikes and would be happy to hear her and her colleagues' observations on the highs. I explained that we needed to sort out the basal as it clearly isn't working and then look at how to control the spikes. She said we needed to address the hypos. She said they had put together an action plan and that their views on the way forward differed from mine. She talked a bit about carb counting and I explained I low-carb. She said she'd noticed my carbs were very low and addressing this was part of the plan. I said 'Brilliant! I have been looking for some specialist help in matching insulin to a low-carb diet'. She said 'I'm just going to ask the consultant to join us'.

To cut a very long story short, the consultant started asking me about not recognising the signs of hypos - apparently the dietician and her colleagues had put in their report that I didn't recognise hypos. I hit the roof. How dare this person who has never met me and has no experience of diabetes make such a comment. I explained fully to the consultant when I correct 'hypos' and when I leave them; what I base my judgement on e.g. amount of active insulin and so on. Consultant then apologised for the dietician comments and said he was very happy with my hypo awareness and the way I deal with hypos and would put that on my notes in response to the dietician's comments. By then I was completely furious though, so I explained how frustrating I find it to deal with people who do not have diabetes and have only experience of diabetics with very high HbA1cs and that I have a right to expect help with flattening my profile within a good HbA1c. The consultant agreed!

The upshot of all of this is that I now have a third insulin - Insuman Basal - which I've used before. I'm going to use it as my evening basal for a few months to see if its peak can stop the overnight highs, but continue with Levemir as my morning basal and Apidra as my bolus. I think it will take a bit of trial and error, so I might be exasperated for a while, but at least we're trying something! If it doesn't work, I'll be back there insisting on Tressiba, but my case will have been strengthened by having tried everything reasonable. So a reasonable result in the end, but a flippin' nightmare to go through. Really stressful.

On the way out, I had a final sharp exchange with a nurse who told me that there isn't a half unit pen for Insuman so I'd have to have a full unit pen 'like everyone else' or she could give me Humalin I instead as it's 'exactly the same, just a different make'. I said 'you've never used insulin have you?' and don't worry about the half unit pen I'll get a JuniorStar direct from Sanoffi - that takes Insuman cartridges'.

I never did get to see the dietician's plan - the consultant told her he didn't think it would be suitable - and I'm sorting out my own pens with the supplier - so exactly what value did this team of DSNs and dieticians add? It felt like a very expensive job creation scheme. Thank goodness it's over!

Smidge
 
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Scandichic

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Oh it's been one of those days! I had an appointment at the hospital with my consultant this afternoon - I was dreading it as a recent week with a sensor attached had shown lots of high spikes and a handful of lows - lows mainly in the mid to high 3s with two in the high 2s; highs up to 16 but mostly 11 to 14. Overall, a tiny proportion of my time was spent below target maybe 2 or 3% but more than 25% of my time above target - mostly overnight. So, I wanted to discuss how we tackle the blippiness without compromising the HbA1c - basically how do we start trying to smooth out the profile. I knew that would be a challenging discussion and I expected the diabetes team to push me to increase my HbA1.

Anyway, almost as soon as I arrived I got called in by a young woman I'd never met. She introduced herself as the dietician and said she wanted to talk me through the results and her and her colleagues' observations. I can't say I was really happy to talk to a dietician, but I thought there could be no real harm in it. She wanted to discuss the 'hypos' - I explained I didn't see most of them as hypos as they were above 3.4mmol - she said 'even so' and continued on about the hypos. I said I wanted help addressing the spikes and would be happy to hear her and her colleagues' observations on the highs. I explained that we needed to sort out the basal as it clearly isn't working and then look at how to control the spikes. She said we needed to address the hypos. She said they had put together an action plan and that their views on the way forward differed from mine. She talked a bit about carb counting and I explained I low-carb. She said she'd noticed my carbs were very low and addressing this was part of the plan. I said 'Brilliant! I have been looking for some specialist help in matching insulin to a low-carb diet'. She said 'I'm just going to ask the consultant to join us'.

To cut a very long story short, the consultant started asking me about not recognising the signs of hypos - apparently the dietician and her colleagues had put in their report that I didn't recognise hypos. I hit the roof. How dare this person who has never met me and has no experience of diabetes make such a comment. I explained fully to the consultant when I correct 'hypos' and when I leave them; what I base my judgement on e.g. amount of active insulin and so on. Consultant then apologised for the dietician comments and said he was very happy with my hypo awareness and the way I deal with hypos and would put that on my notes in response to the dietician's comments. By then I was completely furious though, so I explained how frustrating I find it to deal with people who do not have diabetes and have only experience of diabetics with very high HbA1cs and that I have a right to expect help with flattening my profile within a good HbA1c. The consultant agreed!

The upshot of all of this is that I now have a third insulin - Insuman Basal - which I've used before. I'm going to use it as my evening basal for a few months to see if its peak can stop the overnight highs, but continue with Levemir as my morning basal and Apidra as my bolus. I think it will take a bit of trial and error, so I might be exasperated for a while, but at least we're trying something! If it doesn't work, I'll be back there insisting on Tressiba, but my case will have been strengthened by having tried everything reasonable. So a reasonable result in the end, but a flippin' nightmare to go through. Really stressful.

On the way out, I had a final sharp exchange with a nurse who told me that there isn't a half unit pen for Insuman so I'd have to have a full unit pen 'like everyone else' or she could give me Humalin I instead as it's 'exactly the same, just a different make'. I said 'you've never used insulin have you?' and don't worry about the half unit pen I'll get a JuniorStar direct from Sanoffi - that takes Insuman cartridges'.

I never did get to see the dietician's plan - the consultant told her he didn't think it would be suitable - and I'm sorting out my own pens with the supplier - so exactly what value did this team of DSNs and dieticians add? It felt like a very expensive job creation scheme. Thank goodness it's over!

Smidge
I always thought life would be easier for T1 when dealing with HCP but obviously I had no idea! The level of arrogance is quite astounding! Not to mention ignorance! I had my review today. They tested my feet and weighed me. The foot test was the only difference between the normal 3 month check! :(
 
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leeemerick

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It is so frustrating when they think they know everything about after a 5 min flick through your notes
 
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noblehead

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Why didn't you just ask about Tresiba today Smidge?

Understand your frustration but I do wonder had you listened to the Action Plan you might have learned something new, now you can only second guess what they might have said.
 
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smidge

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@noblehead - I would happily have listened to the action plan - the consultant decided it wasn't worth sharing when he took one look at it - he clearly hadn't seen before the consultation and was not at all prepared. I did try to discuss Tresiba with them, but they're not currently prescribing it - they have it on trial with a limited number of patients. I could have pushed on down that road, but it seemed like a complete dead end TBH. I'm just hoping that between the Insuman and my Libre, I can work it out without having to see them all again - I just find the whole process incredibly stressful and frustrating.

Smidge
 
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noblehead

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@noblehead - I would happily have listened to the action plan - the consultant decided it wasn't worth sharing when he took one look at it - he clearly hadn't seen before the consultation and was not at all prepared. I did try to discuss Tresiba with them, but they're not currently prescribing it - they have it on trial with a limited number of patients. I could have pushed on down that road, but it seemed like a complete dead end TBH. I'm just hoping that between the Insuman and my Libre, I can work it out without having to see them all again - I just find the whole process incredibly stressful and frustrating.

Smidge


Personally Smidge, if I were having trouble with my diabetes control I'd listen to any advice, irrespective of what the consultant said.

Hopefully the Insuman basal insulin will sort out your night levels, lets know how you get on.
 
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AndBreathe

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Oh it's been one of those days! I had an appointment at the hospital with my consultant this afternoon - I was dreading it as a recent week with a sensor attached had shown lots of high spikes and a handful of lows - lows mainly in the mid to high 3s with two in the high 2s; highs up to 16 but mostly 11 to 14. Overall, a tiny proportion of my time was spent below target maybe 2 or 3% but more than 25% of my time above target - mostly overnight. So, I wanted to discuss how we tackle the blippiness without compromising the HbA1c - basically how do we start trying to smooth out the profile. I knew that would be a challenging discussion and I expected the diabetes team to push me to increase my HbA1.

Anyway, almost as soon as I arrived I got called in by a young woman I'd never met. She introduced herself as the dietician and said she wanted to talk me through the results and her and her colleagues' observations. I can't say I was really happy to talk to a dietician, but I thought there could be no real harm in it. She wanted to discuss the 'hypos' - I explained I didn't see most of them as hypos as they were above 3.4mmol - she said 'even so' and continued on about the hypos. I said I wanted help addressing the spikes and would be happy to hear her and her colleagues' observations on the highs. I explained that we needed to sort out the basal as it clearly isn't working and then look at how to control the spikes. She said we needed to address the hypos. She said they had put together an action plan and that their views on the way forward differed from mine. She talked a bit about carb counting and I explained I low-carb. She said she'd noticed my carbs were very low and addressing this was part of the plan. I said 'Brilliant! I have been looking for some specialist help in matching insulin to a low-carb diet'. She said 'I'm just going to ask the consultant to join us'.

To cut a very long story short, the consultant started asking me about not recognising the signs of hypos - apparently the dietician and her colleagues had put in their report that I didn't recognise hypos. I hit the roof. How dare this person who has never met me and has no experience of diabetes make such a comment. I explained fully to the consultant when I correct 'hypos' and when I leave them; what I base my judgement on e.g. amount of active insulin and so on. Consultant then apologised for the dietician comments and said he was very happy with my hypo awareness and the way I deal with hypos and would put that on my notes in response to the dietician's comments. By then I was completely furious though, so I explained how frustrating I find it to deal with people who do not have diabetes and have only experience of diabetics with very high HbA1cs and that I have a right to expect help with flattening my profile within a good HbA1c. The consultant agreed!

The upshot of all of this is that I now have a third insulin - Insuman Basal - which I've used before. I'm going to use it as my evening basal for a few months to see if its peak can stop the overnight highs, but continue with Levemir as my morning basal and Apidra as my bolus. I think it will take a bit of trial and error, so I might be exasperated for a while, but at least we're trying something! If it doesn't work, I'll be back there insisting on Tressiba, but my case will have been strengthened by having tried everything reasonable. So a reasonable result in the end, but a flippin' nightmare to go through. Really stressful.

On the way out, I had a final sharp exchange with a nurse who told me that there isn't a half unit pen for Insuman so I'd have to have a full unit pen 'like everyone else' or she could give me Humalin I instead as it's 'exactly the same, just a different make'. I said 'you've never used insulin have you?' and don't worry about the half unit pen I'll get a JuniorStar direct from Sanoffi - that takes Insuman cartridges'.

I never did get to see the dietician's plan - the consultant told her he didn't think it would be suitable - and I'm sorting out my own pens with the supplier - so exactly what value did this team of DSNs and dieticians add? It felt like a very expensive job creation scheme. Thank goodness it's over!

Smidge

I hate, hate, hate it when a lowest common denominator approach is used with anything. Even worse when that means we're treated as being not at all clever.
 
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AndBreathe

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I always thought life would be easier for T1 when dealing with HCP but obviously I had no idea! The level of arrogance is quite astounding! Not to mention ignorance! I had my review today. They tested my feet and weighed me. The foot test was the only difference between the normal 3 month check! :(

New HbA1c and so on? Are you stabilised these days?
 
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tim2000s

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I hate, hate, hate it when a lowest common denominator approach is used with anything. Even worse when that means we're treated as being not at all clever.
I hate the fact that most T1s in a lot of the hospitals in London don't get proper treatment. By that I mean you turn up, as long as your Hba1c is okay they check your feet and ask if you feel alright, give you a quick talking to about sexual health and show you the door. Generally they are mostly registrars and don't know a huge amount about diabetes innovations and new products and are doing it as part of a rotation. It's about as useful as seeking your GP.

What I'd like to see is an advanced advice guide that can be given out by consultants to those that they think could use it. Yes, the uncontrolled diabetics with Hba1c tests atvtheb10+% level wouldn't get it, but those of us who have elected to low carb, have interest in why certain things happen with certain insulin and demonstrate both control and interest should be given that bit of leeway.
 
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AndBreathe

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I hate the fact that most T1s in a lot of the hospitals in London don't get proper treatment. By that I mean you turn up, as long as your Hba1c is okay they check your feet and ask if you feel alright, give you a quick talking to about sexual health and show you the door. Generally they are mostly registrars and don't know a huge amount about diabetes innovations and new products and are doing it as part of a rotation. It's about as useful as seeking your GP.

You should try being a T2 then. Many T2s never see their GP for diabetes management, it's left to the practise nurse whose dietary information is outdated and they're told self testing will confuse them. Thankfully, I can at least see my GP.

We do indeed live in a very imperfect world.
 
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ConradJ

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Personally Smidge, if I were having trouble with my diabetes control I'd listen to any advice, irrespective of what the consultant said.


...And just because you listened does not mean you have to take it on board ;)

Good luck with it... the new dietician at Stoke Mandeville is a revelation - she's read Bernstein, et al and discusses things like 'fribrous carbs'!
 
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fairylights

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When I did my DAFNE course at the local hospital, we went up to the canteen every day for lunch with the DSN and the dietician, mostly they had packed lunches and never a carb passed the lips of either of them the whole week. They also said we could do the 5:2 diet if we wished and have carb free meals whenever we wanted, just to adjust the bolus accordingly.
 
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elaine77

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Noblehead, if Smidge is raising concerns about high spikes and they're banging on about lows I don't see how listening to THEM will be helpful when they were not prepared to listen to Smidge. Also, dieticians are not doctors and so I would rather listen to a diabetic consultant than a dietician, which is what was done.

Just my opinion.
 
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donnellysdogs

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Peop's - this is something that everyone who has a sensor has to be aware of.

Consultants do like hba1cs in the normal range.. But they will always look for hypo's first when you are in normal ranges.

Its the same with downloadable pumps with built in blood testing equipment. They will always look at the quantity of hypo's and at what levels you are dipping to.

I know this isn't helping your situation regarding insulin and your treatment etc, but people with sensor's ... Especially peoples sensors that are reading lower than blood meters.. Should be aware of.

It should be a combined hypo and hyper alert but consultants just don't do that when your hba1c's are in normal to lower ranges...
 
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Scandichic

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New HbA1c and so on? Are you stabilised these days?
Sort of. Weight continuing to go down - about 2.5 stones to go. Lost 1 stone 8lbs since last hba1c 6 months ago. Fasting still in 6s but then down to 5.5.
 
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AndBreathe

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Sort of. Weight continuing to go down - about 2.5 stones to go. Lost 1 stone 8lbs since last hba1c 6 months ago. Fasting still in 6s but then down to 5.5.

You've certainly been very solid in both your approach and the outcomes. Has your HbA1c stayed stable too? Have they got you onto long interval testing now?
 

jack412

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Noblehead, if Smidge is raising concerns about high spikes and they're banging on about lows I don't see how listening to THEM will be helpful when they were not prepared to listen to Smidge. Also, dieticians are not doctors and so I would rather listen to a diabetic consultant than a dietician, which is what was done.

Just my opinion.
the dr was the right person to take advice from and the dietitian was clueless, except for..
rule number 1.....always treat the low first
rule number 2,,refer to rule number 1 :)
 
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elaine77

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The low was the dieticians opinion of a low though. Smidge said that those levels were not low to her. I've had lots of 3.9s etc and felt fine, I don't start feeling weird until 3.5 or lower.
 
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jack412

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The low was the dieticians opinion of a low though. Smidge said that those levels were not low to her. I've had lots of 3.9s etc and felt fine, I don't start feeling weird until 3.5 or lower.
dietitian would have also said the a1c was too low if under 7% :)
 
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