Pre diabetes and dawn phenomenon + ketosis

[Stevia_queen]

Firstly i am not on medication, had read january 2016 of HAbc1 6.4 so i sore i was gonna change this naturally and not pay big pharma to kill me slowly.
I was on LCHF diet for 8 months last year and lost 15 kilos and brought my Habc1 from 6.4 to 5.2 in 2 months felt amazing after 6 months on it, plateaud and started going to gym to build muscle mass up - felt even better, no body aches no dawn phenomenon, weight loss, (got a bit lightheaded and palpitations after 8 months of LCHF intermittent fasting and gym) started having one carb meal a day then..
I went off course over the winter eating carb meal and snack almost everyday and put the weight back on in 2 months. and my fasting bg levels went up to 6.1. (possibly higher as i ran out of test strips)

I am now back on the LCHF 2 weeks in and always struggling with the dawn phenomenon, being woken up by hot flush at 4am. I do a fasting BG morning read and its ave 4.2 - 5.9 (never below 4)
My ketones are up to 40 v dark pink (using ketostix urine test morning afternoon and evening reads)
I have been getting hot flushes in the daytime, very tired, dizzy and bone ache (i think this is the keto flu)

typical non fasting day is:
I have coffee with heavy cream in the morning as advised
wake up 4- 5am coffee with heavy cream and erythritol
9am - 2 eggs sometimes bacon or full fat yoghurt and strawberries / raspberries /blueberries with flaxseed
11 am some cheese or nuts
1-2pm tuna salad or chicken salad
5-6 pm chicken tuna or beef with some veg or cheese
in small snack of cheese or yoghurt 9pm as advised to stop dawn phenomenon
and don't eat meals or anything heavy after 7pm,
sleep 11pm ish
I get very tired during the afternoon
I try to drink a lot of water- at least 2 - 3 litres often in the form of a big jug of hibiscus tea left to cool overnight

MY QUESTIONS ARE:
1. How do i stop the Dawn phenomenon, i feel like its not good to have this.
2. Is my liver creating glycogen from the proteins i eat overnight and what does this mean? good? bad?
3. should i be eating more fat, i know I'm not eating enough at the moment.
Can i still consider my 4am reads as a fasting one if i went to sleep at 11pm? (5 hours sleep) are they not night reads?
4. if i have coffee with cream first thing after getting up and testing etc, does this mean i miss a fasting read by not waiting until 6am?
5. any other advise u can give me to raise me out of DP ? id like to sleep thru till 6am and not have a restless tossing turning heat rushing sleep form 2am - 4am ( i have been forcing myself to stay sleeping in bed so i don't get up at 2am)
6. i have heard that fat cells have a memory and i seemed to put on a lot more of the weight very very quickly over the winter once i introduced carbs back in to my diet. I am now heavier than i was before i started a year ago just after a few months of eating carbs again. ( i stopped going to the gym as well)

look forward to hearing your ideas on any or all of my questions ( u can number your answers accordingly so you don't have to answer all if necessary lol)
Stevia Queen x

 

[bulkbiker]

If your morning readings are between 4.2 and 4.9 you don't really have dawn phenomenon..most people would be ultra happy wth those levels.
Looking at your pic I assume you are female and could it be that you are "that" age?
I'm not sure how to say it in a politically correct way? your symptoms are not necessarily your pre diabetes... just a thought..
What's your HbA1c and readings at other time of the day?
And as you already know cuttings carbs back should help with the weight loss..

 

[Stevia_queen]

If your morning readings are between 4.2 and 4.9 you don't really have dawn phenomenon..most people would be ultra happy wth those levels.
Looking at your pic I assume you are female and could it be that you are "that" age?
I'm not sure how to say it in a politically correct way? your symptoms are not necessarily your pre diabetes... just a thought..
What's your HbA1c and readings at other time of the day?
And as you already know cuttings carbs back should help with the weight loss..

Hi Bulkbiker and thanks for response!
I am 43 and at that age, lol. I will be frank- between age 40 and 43 i had on ave 3 periods a year ( prior to that v heavy painful and regular as clock work all my life and would knock me out for days in pain!) however after 6 months on LCHF last year my periods came back regular and lighter and less painful. since starting carbs again the periods disappeared … maybe its the pre menopause thing which I am 100% sure is sped up and exacerbated by long term carb use.

I haven't had daytime sweats since last year when i changed diet. my night sweats disappeared after a few months into ketosis but my night heats now rise me out of sleep every night at 2-4am last few weeks and has returned since re adjusting to low carb again. its def got worse since going ketosis again this year
.
Im concerned that this is not a good sign for my liver all the ups and downs of glycogen creation...
xxx stevia Queen xxx

 

[Stevia_queen]

Hi Bulkbiker and thanks for response!
I am 43 and at that age, lol. I will be frank- between age 40 and 43 i had on ave 3 periods a year ( prior to that v heavy painful and regular as clock work all my life and would knock me out for days in pain!) however after 6 months on LCHF last year my periods came back regular and lighter and less painful. since starting carbs again the periods disappeared … maybe its the pre menopause thing which I am 100% sure is sped up and exacerbated by long term carb use.

I haven't had daytime sweats since last year when i changed diet. my night sweats disappeared after a few months into kept but my night heats now rise me out of sleep every night at 2-4am last few weeks and has returned since re adjusting to low carb again. its def got worse since going ketosis.

Im concerned that this is not a good sign for my liver all the ups and downs of glycogen creation...
xxx stevia Queen xxx

Also the past week my readings have been between 5.9 - 4.2 ( had a slip last week and went to 10.1 after high carb lunch )
not sure what my calorie or fat or fibre intake is really. I just know I'm keeping the carbs down to 20-30grms a day.

 

[bulkbiker]

Well I would say cut back on the carbs..(don't have any more high carb lunches) and see how it goes. You've previously had success on LCHF so there's no real reason why you can't again.

 

[Stevia_queen]

yes i plan to continue most definitely it worked really well for me after initial symptoms died down, i guess ill have to get thru this kETO flu and see if my hormones regulate again. thanks

 

[Stevia_queen]

also my mistake the rads are between 4.2 and 5.9.

 

[Brunneria]

What is your salt intake? And are you taking broth?

Also, is your fatigue and tiredness
- a mental concentration thing?
- a physical muscle thing?
- a sleepy can't keep eyes open thing?

And what is your blood doing when you have your tiredness and you night sweats?

Sorry about the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[Stevia_queen]

What is your salt intake? And are you taking broth?

Also, is your fatigue and tiredness
- a mental concentration thing?
- a physical muscle thing?
- a sleepy can't keep eyes open thing?

And what is your blood doing when you have your tiredness and you night sweats?

Sorry about the Spanish Inquisition!

Hi Brunneria
its good to ask questions lol,
So the fatigue and tiredness and body aches:
deep muscle and bone ache that kept me awake or woke me up,
tiredness after shower, going out for a walk climbing up my 6 flight of stairs etc.
sweats intermittently in the day and stronger at night. heat rush wakes me out of sleep at 2am - 5am most days.
however this lasted a week or so.
I think it was the Keto flu.

I am being very strict on it and adding in intermittement fasting.
eating only 2 eggs with salt and pepper for breakfast and drinking apple cider vinegar , hibiscus tea and boullion if im hungry.
I am now eating 3 meals a day mainly snack amount not full plate.
I did LCHF this last year when i was warned i was pre diabetic. It took me 3 months to adjust found it very hard initially. This time it has taken me two weeks and im in 40 - 80 mmmol ketotsis ever time i check my urine.
I have learnt to eat some fat or protein an hour before i go to bed which seems to help , the hot flush wakes me at 5am now instead of 2am and the bone aches have gone.
I have lost 8 kilos in the past 2 weeks (which i think is water so far)
the sweats seem to have gone.
SO i do think it was keto flu and eating too much protein so my liver created gylcogen which woke me up at dawn like carbs did.
seems to have gone for now. although i still do get over heated at night and alwasy keep windows open.

 

[Stevia_queen]

Oh and my reads are mostly 4.2- 4.7 now.
I do eat chicken broth sometimes if i roast a chicken.
my salt intake has increased slightly to compensate, ive read up on it.

 

[Brunneria]

That's good!


If the bone ache thing is still going, I would check with your doc.

I had that, and it turned out to be Vit D deficiency, easily sorted with a VitD3 and VitK2 supplement. Made a huge difference.

But bone aches can be other things, and not always so easy to deal with, so I would get it checked out

 

[Stevia_queen]

well its been a week now since this post and the sweats have gone, no dawn phenomenon right now as long as i maintain ketosis. my ketostix read 40 - 80 mol on peerage throughout the day.
last week they were trace - 20 mmol

 

[Stevia_queen]

ok felt extremely tired today and yesterday but no bone ache or sweats… 2 weeks in and 70mmol ketosis this afternoon
I did take D3 yesterday

 

[gangadharan_nair]

The dawn phenomenon can be managed in many patients by avoiding carbohydrate intake at bedtime.

 

[Brunneria]

The dawn phenomenon can be managed in many patients by avoiding carbohydrate intake at bedtime.

If only it were that simple!
I have DP and I restrict my carb intake to under 20g a day, and do not eat after my evening meal at around 7pm.
I find that stress, tiredness, activity levels and longer term eating all have more effect that simply avoiding carbs at bedtime.

 

[Kittylitter]

I know this sounds hard to believe but I am in shock - my morning readings are above 6 always - until I added pre-biotics to my coffee and after the 1st day; my morning reading was 5.4 - I have never ever been this low!! I am only on day 4 of using pre-biotics, so I will keep you up-dated.

 

[Bon83]

That's good!


If the bone ache thing is still going, I would check with your doc.

I had that, and it turned out to be Vit D deficiency, easily sorted with a VitD3 and VitK2 supplement. Made a huge difference.

But bone aches can be other things, and not always so easy to deal with, so I would get it checked out

Sorry to but it on this thread but it struck a cord with me - I am wondering if I am deficient in something as I have a stiff neck aching bones (mainly in my hips at night and when sitting) I have also noticed now I get a whooshing in ears. I run a fair bit and put it down to that but it's getting worse and i now get dizzy if I get up too quickly. I'm 34 and have been type 1 for nearly a year now. My grandma had pinniceous anemia (prob spelt wrong sorry) and my symptoms seem very similar. Any thoughts much appreciated. Oh I have just had a dn review - do the blood tests show any deficiency

 

[Brunneria]

Sorry to but it on this thread but it struck a cord with me - I am wondering if I am deficient in something as I have a stiff neck aching bones (mainly in my hips at night and when sitting) I have also noticed now I get a whooshing in ears. I run a fair bit and put it down to that but it's getting worse and i now get dizzy if I get up too quickly. I'm 34 and have been type 1 for nearly a year now. My grandma had pinniceous anemia (prob spelt wrong sorry) and my symptoms seem very similar. Any thoughts much appreciated. Oh I have just had a dn review - do the blood tests show any deficiency

I think you would need to have a copy of the your blood results (either using internet access, if you have that set up, or a print out from your doc's reception or nurse). That way, you can see what they tested, and what the results were.

Then if B12 and Vit D aren't on the tests, I would make an appt and ask for them, giving your reasons.

My doc wouldn't do the tests (I think he thought I was some kind of yuppie hypochondriac) so I ended up paying for the Vit D test privately using an NHS lab (simply a blood test on a card, sent off through the post, results in about 4 days, costing £28). And yes, I was DEFINITELY deficient in Vit D. Didn't bother to test for B12,

So I just buy my own Vit B12, D3 and K2 supplements, and feel much better for it. I'm careful not to overdose on any of them.

The one negative about the whole experience was that my faith in that doctor eroded even further...

 

[Bon83]

I think you would need to have a copy of the your blood results (either using internet access, if you have that set up, or a print out from your doc's reception or nurse). That way, you can see what they tested, and what the results were.

Then if B12 and Vit D aren't on the tests, I would make an appt and ask for them, giving your reasons.

My doc wouldn't do the tests (I think he thought I was some kind of yuppie hypochondriac) so I ended up paying for the Vit D test privately using an NHS lab (simply a blood test on a card, sent off through the post, results in about 4 days, costing £28). And yes, I was DEFINITELY deficient in Vit D. Didn't bother to test for B12,

So I just buy my own Vit B12, D3 and K2 supplements, and feel much better for it. I'm careful not to overdose on any of them.

The one negative about the whole experience was that my faith in that doctor eroded even further...

Thanks for the advice! I am going to contact the practice about other things so I will ask for a print out. I can bet you there will be a reason I can't have it- seems to be the way with the practice reception.

 

[merlo]

typical non fasting day is:
I have coffee with heavy cream in the morning as advised
wake up 4- 5am coffee with heavy cream and erythritol
9am - 2 eggs sometimes bacon or full fat yoghurt and strawberries / raspberries /blueberries with flaxseed
11 am some cheese or nuts
1-2pm tuna salad or chicken salad
5-6 pm chicken tuna or beef with some veg or cheese
in small snack of cheese or yoghurt 9pm as advised to stop dawn phenomenon
and don't eat meals or anything heavy after 7pm,
sleep 11pm ish
I get very tired during the afternoon
I try to drink a lot of water- at least 2 - 3 litres often in the form of a big jug of hibiscus tea left to cool overnight

Stevia Queen x

Hi! The Dawn Phenomenon, for you, might be caused by your short sleep window- you're only getting 5-6 hours of sleep (if I'm reading that right)! That's probably not enough- the first thing I might try would be to get more sleep. Try going to bed at 9:00 (without your snack) for a week and see if that doesn't help with your morning numbers and mid-day slump! Dawn phenomenon can be caused by adrenaline or cortisol--> both of those are highly impacted by sleep. Hope this helps!