Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Brunneria]

I understand T2 gets very gradually worse over the years however you treat it low carb or metformin. And that only reversing it with ND or bariatric surgery will prevent it getting worse in the long term.

I don't think we have the evidence to make those statements.
No one has ever done a long term study on a large group of committed low carbers, to see if/how their T2 deteriorates.
And there certainly isn't any long term study evidence on a large group of T2s who have undergone bariatric surgery or ND to see whether their conditions deteriorate over time, following the initial improvements after the diet/surgery.

It is very easy, when people discover things like the ND, to assign all sorts of hopeful 'facts' and expectations to them.
People make enthusiastic statements about it being a 100% effective, and 'a cure' and 'better than low carbing' and all sorts of other things. None of those statements are made by Professor Taylor, and none of them are supported by studies and evidence. For example, no study has been done comparing ND with very low carbing for long term 'reversal'. Yet people keep making these statements, until they gather a kind of urban myth status and newcomers read them and think they are fact.

 

[Bluetit1802]

It could be coincidence. I understand T2 gets very gradually worse over the years however you treat it low carb or metformin. And that only reversing it with ND or bariatric surgery will prevent it getting worse in the long term.

If that is the case, how do you suggest slim T2s attempt reversal? Neither of these options is suitable for those with no weight to lose.

 

[Tannith]

If that is the case, how do you suggest slim T2s attempt reversal? Neither of these options is suitable for those with no weight to lose.

 

[Tannith]

As I understand it slim T2s DO have weight to lose. Not enough to merit bariatric surgery obviously, but they can do ND. According to Prof Taylor we all have a personal weight threshold above which we start to store fat in our liver and pancreas. some people, in particular some ethnicities, start to store visceral fat at a much lower BMI than others. Even within the "normal" BMI range.These are the people that Dr Mosely refers to as "thin on the outside fat on the inside", in his book "the 8 week blood sugar diet". He says he is one of these himself and reversed his own T2 Diabetes by losing 20lb on the normal food version of the ND.

 

[ringi]

I expect that unless BG is got well into the normal range and kept there, that T2 will get harder to control over the years. Hence "eating to your meter" is just the start, and we need to do a lot better than that.

 

[Bluetit1802]

As I understand it slim T2s DO have weight to lose. Not enough to merit bariatric surgery obviously, but they can do ND. According to Prof Taylor we all have a personal weight threshold above which we start to store fat in our liver and pancreas. some people, in particular some ethnicities, start to store visceral fat at a much lower BMI than others. Even within the "normal" BMI range.These are the people that Dr Mosely refers to as "thin on the outside fat on the inside", in his book "the 8 week blood sugar diet". He says he is one of these himself and reversed his own T2 Diabetes by losing 20lb on the normal food version of the ND.

I'm sure you are right about visceral fat but if I lost 7lbs never mind 20 I would look like a zip fastener Lol.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

how do you suggest slim T2s attempt reversal?

Being slim in appearance doesn't mean that you are thin inside the body, only a full scan will show that. I saw a program about a very obese teenager who had two very ordinary brothers but when they did body scans they all had lots of fat around their internal organs.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Being slim in appearance doesn't mean that you are thin inside the body, only a full scan will show that. I saw a program about a very obese teenager who had two very ordinary brothers but when they did body scans they all had lots of fat around their internal organs.

I agree.

 

[zand]

I'm sure you are right about visceral fat but if I lost 7lbs never mind 20 I would look like a zip fastener Lol.

And being underweight is more unhealthy than being overweight too so it really would not be a good idea for you.

 

[bulkbiker]

It could be coincidence. I understand T2 gets very gradually worse over the years however you treat it low carb or metformin. And that only reversing it with ND or bariatric surgery will prevent it getting worse in the long term.

Could be cobblers too... We are told that it gets worse over time but that's probably only if you follow current NHS/NICE guidelines and eat carbs with every meal...ND and Bariatric surgery are certainly not guaranteed to reverse T2 and so far as I know no-one has ever claimed that they are.

 

[Tannith]

If that is the case, how do you suggest slim T2s attempt reversal? Neither of these options is suitable for those with no weight to lose.

Are your BGs normal now? If your BMI went down ten points perhaps you have already lost enough or very nearly enough weight to reverse your T2

 

[Tannith]

Does pancreatic fat or high blood sugar damage beta cells? or both? Prof Taylor says its pancreatic fat but jenny Ruhl says high blood sugar.

 

[Fleegle]

I'm sure you are right about visceral fat but if I lost 7lbs never mind 20 I would look like a zip fastener Lol.

So being controversial and stitching together what I have read and heard, and guessing really - I am not sure it is about weight loss. I am not sure if you were super slim you would lose much weight anyway. I think it is about clearing that really stubborn fat from the pancreas, forcing the body to scrounge every last scrap from the pancreas and to do that you have to clear other places too - and it takes about 8 weeks.

The reason I say that is because Prof T talks about an individuals weight threshold which I think means the point at which you stop carrying healthy weight and start to bung the pancreas up (given this seems to happen later). I suspect most people who do the ND diet plateau in lbs but maybe shift it from different places - put some weight back on (so you don't look like a zip fastener .

I am just guessing. It cannot be just about weight because as many people point out many are not overweight but are still type 2.
So it must be something more than just loosing weight - hence the 8weeks of not enough calories forcing it out.

As I say - just guessing - no expert.

 

[Fleegle]

I don't think we have the evidence to make those statements.
No one has ever done a long term study on a large group of committed low carbers, to see if/how their T2 deteriorates.
And there certainly isn't any long term study evidence on a large group of T2s who have undergone bariatric surgery or ND to see whether their conditions deteriorate over time, following the initial improvements after the diet/surgery.

It is very easy, when people discover things like the ND, to assign all sorts of hopeful 'facts' and expectations to them.
People make enthusiastic statements about it being a 100% effective, and 'a cure' and 'better than low carbing' and all sorts of other things. None of those statements are made by Professor Taylor, and none of them are supported by studies and evidence. For example, no study has been done comparing ND with very low carbing for long term 'reversal'. Yet people keep making these statements, until they gather a kind of urban myth status and newcomers read them and think they are fact.

I think that is all true @Brunneria particularly on the 100%, cure etc. In terms of research just to be fair, there are the same questions over whether LCHF works in the long run, whether LCHF has long term effects on things we don't understand yet. There is no research thanks to poor scientific research driven by the high carb low fat marketers.

LCHF, as someone who practices it - is an amazing way of getting BGs down from 15 - 5 pretty quickly so I am far from knocking it. And weight, and BP, and cholesteral... My visceral fat is 11 - even when I was cycling 200 miles a week I never got that low - so better than exercise for shifting that weight - who would have guessed!

I don't understand why the two things, ND & LCHF are not a marriage made in heaven? Why are they always put up against each other as separate disciplines? My current plan is to LCHF to get BG in a controllable range - ND diet to try and get things working better than they are (because one slice of brown toast sends me to pluto and back) and then LCHF 46 of the 52 weeks in a year, or 5 out of 7 days a week TBC. Just a plan mind you need to take the stage 2 plunge.

 

[ringi]

Does pancreatic fat or high blood sugar damage beta cells? or both? Prof Taylor says its pancreatic fat but jenny Ruhl says high blood sugar.

I expect high blood sugar results in the liver converting the sugar into fat, and the fat damage the bete cells. Therefore they could both be right! However, I also expect that high blood insulin levels also result in more fat in the bete cells, so reducing BG with drugs that increase insulin may not protect the bete cells.

 

[badcat]

I don't think we have the evidence to make those statements.
No one has ever done a long term study on a large group of committed low carbers, to see if/how their T2 deteriorates.
And there certainly isn't any long term study evidence on a large group of T2s who have undergone bariatric surgery or ND to see whether their conditions deteriorate over time, following the initial improvements after the diet/surgery.

It is very easy, when people discover things like the ND, to assign all sorts of hopeful 'facts' and expectations to them.
People make enthusiastic statements about it being a 100% effective, and 'a cure' and 'better than low carbing' and all sorts of other things. None of those statements are made by Professor Taylor, and none of them are supported by studies and evidence. For example, no study has been done comparing ND with very low carbing for long term 'reversal'. Yet people keep making these statements, until they gather a kind of urban myth status and newcomers read them and think they are fact.

My diabetes hasnt followed the "it always deteriorates" rule. I have been on the same meds at the same dose for 20 years and appart from 2 v short lived blips my hba1cs have all been in the non diabetic / pre diabetic range despite an opening BS in the mid 20s. I dont assign that to any 1 diet but to a more flexible approach of adopting the one that seems to fit best at the time. The medics cant explain the stability other than hypothesising that I might have monogenic rather than type 2 diabetes
I have followed quite high carb wholefood, vegetarian / vegan diets at some points and currently follow low ish carb moderate fat - the only real consistent thing has been testing and adjusting diet based oh the results

 

[lindisfel]

I don't think we have the evidence to make those statements.
No one has ever done a long term study on a large group of committed low carbers, to see if/how their T2 deteriorates.
And there certainly isn't any long term study evidence on a large group of T2s who have undergone bariatric surgery or ND to see whether their conditions deteriorate over time, following the initial improvements after the diet/surgery.

It is very easy, when people discover things like the ND, to assign all sorts of hopeful 'facts' and expectations to them.
People make enthusiastic statements about it being a 100% effective, and 'a cure' and 'better than low carbing' and all sorts of other things. None of those statements are made by Professor Taylor, and none of them are supported by studies and evidence. For example, no study has been done comparing ND with very low carbing for long term 'reversal'. Yet people keep making these statements, until they gather a kind of urban myth status and newcomers read them and think they are fact.

I wouldn't have thought anyone could live on the ND for the rest of their lives? It is not sustainable in the long term and graduating to a low carb diet for life is the only option for someone who wants to have a healthy body and cannot deal with refined carbs. Derek PS. Pass me my shakes in a cuboid cup I need a square meal!

 

[JohnEGreen]

I wouldn't have thought anyone could live on the ND for the rest of their lives? It is not sustainable in the long term and graduating to a low carb diet for life is the only option for someone who wants to have a healthy body and cannot deal with refined carbs. Derek PS. Pass me my shakes in cuboid cup I need a square meal!

I've managed low carb and 800 or less calories for about 18 months now and see no problem maintaining it indefinitely if I wish to.

 

[bulkbiker]

I've managed low carb and 800 or less calories for about 18 months now and see no problem maintaining it indefinitely if I wish to.

Are you loosing weight doing that?

 

[JohnEGreen]

Over all I have lost about 8 St 7 Lb but am now allowing my self a little leeway in carbs and calories in order to stay around the weight I am now