Sudden change in bread reaction

[Canada_Mike]

Hi,
First off, I'm a newbie. I've had diabetes 2 for two years. Sudden I've had a dramatic change in bread reaction. If I eat one slice of toast or half a bagel (no jam) my mml goes to 10. I've been having toast for breakfast for ages, and this change is a puzzle. I take 2,000 mg of Glumetza daily.

Any ideas?

Michael

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi,
First off, I'm a newbie. I've had diabetes 2 for two years. Sudden I've had a dramatic change in bread reaction. If I eat one slice of toast or half a bagel (no jam) my mml goes to 10. I've been having toast for breakfast for ages, and this change is a puzzle. I take 2,000 mg of Glumetza daily.

Any ideas?

Michael

Modern breads especially white flour breads generally have added sugar. They are considered as high GI load, and generally will cause bgl spikes. I have toast myself, If I have white bread, I spike badly, but I use a multi-seed loaf that hardly registers on my meter. I also use butter to lower the GI load, and this slows things down even further.

 

[Winnie53]

Your diabetes is worsening because you're becoming more insulin resistant. Based on my readings and experience, your diabetes will continue to progress and worsen, eventually resulting in complications, with or without medication, until you change your diet.

Two diets appear to work: a whole foods, plant based foods only diet, low to no fat only (described in Neal Barnard, MD or Joel Fuhrman, MD books on diabetes) or a low carb, high (healthy) fat, moderate protein based diet (described in Richard Bernstein, MD, or Mark Hyman, MD books on diabetes). I use the latter diet. You can learn more about any of these authors on YouTube.

Fasting can be helpful too. Jason Fung, MD is leading the way on this. He also can be found on YouTube. Indy51 has a topic in the Low-Carb Diet Forum on Jason Fung and fasting. For more information, go here... http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/fasting-for-type-2s.73800/page-6#post-1099279

It takes effort to get a handle on how to manage our type 2 diabetes, but once we get through the learning curve and put good eating habits into practice, we move from victim to empowered (and a lot better health). I crossed over into type 2 diabetes about 10 years ago. I started using diet a year ago with excellent results, but still can't eat bread or other starchy foods. That said, I have my health back, and that's most important.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

Based on my readings and experience, your diabetes will continue to progress and worsen, eventually resulting in complications, with or without medication, until you change your diet.

If we base things on MY readings and experience it's possible you may have type one.

In all seriousness, let's not jump to conclusions here. It's important to know WHEN it jumps up to 10mmol/l and for how long it stays there. it would also be important to know if eating bread without jam, butter, or anything else is a new change. You may have been eating bread for a while, but carbs in the absence of fat can have a dramatically different effect on your blood sugar than carbs WITH fat.

Another thing to consider is if you've recently stated a low-carb diet. Many people find they are MORE sensitive to carbs after starting a low-carb diet.

It is certainly possible he is becoming more insulin resistant, but let's not rule anything else just yet.

 

[Canada_Mike]

Thanks for all the advice. The bread I eat is multi-gran and contains no sugar at all. It's bakery bread and I have spoken with the baker. I eat my bread (or used to) with butter or cream cheese. Funny thing is my last A1C was 6.3, and my other readings are pretty good most of the time. There might be something about the no-fat that Torq mentions, as if I have a hamburger with bun, I don't get that reaction. Is there a way to know if I have moved to T1? I was projected to have it when I was 18, and held it off for 50 years!

 

[Winnie53]

@TorqPenderloin, type 2 and type 1 require different treatments, but both benefit by finding the right diet. Not sure where you're going with your comment. Is something in my post incorrect? If yes, please correct me. Providing accurate information is important to me.

 

[Pollylocks]

Welcome to the forum Canada_Mike.

Bread is a no no for many of us in here as it raises our blood sugar levels along with pasta, rice, potatoes...they all contain carbs and carbs turn to sugar in the blood. Many members follow a low carb high fat diet, I lowish carb and highish fat.

I'm not too sure which links would be helpful, but someone is bound to come along with one. There's loads of advice and help on the forum, have a look around

 

[Winnie53]

Thanks for all the advice. The bread I eat is multi-gran and contains no sugar at all. It's bakery bread and I have spoken with the baker. I eat my bread (or used to) with butter or cream cheese. Funny thing is my last A1C was 6.3, and my other readings are pretty good most of the time. There might be something about the no-fat that Torq mentions, as if I have a hamburger with bun, I don't get that reaction. Is there a way to know if I have moved to T1? I was projected to have it when I was 18, and held it off for 50 years!

Mike, I haven't been able to tolerate anything starchy for a long time. Crossed over to type 2 10 years ago. A1c stayed at 7.2% and 7.3% for a long time. Then 5 years ago it went up to 8.2%, then a year ago it went up to 9.9%. That's when I started the low carb diet, and eliminated all starchy foods: grains, root vegetables, and legumes. Much better without them. A1c has been 5.5% and 5.4% for a year now. We each have to find our own way.

Fantastic that you've done as well as you have for 50 years!

 

[Oldvatr]

Thanks for all the advice. The bread I eat is multi-gran and contains no sugar at all. It's bakery bread and I have spoken with the baker. I eat my bread (or used to) with butter or cream cheese. Funny thing is my last A1C was 6.3, and my other readings are pretty good most of the time. There might be something about the no-fat that Torq mentions, as if I have a hamburger with bun, I don't get that reaction. Is there a way to know if I have moved to T1? I was projected to have it when I was 18, and held it off for 50 years!

There are tests that can help diagnosis. Ask for a GAD test and c-peptide test. You could experiment with porridge as a temp measure to see if that spikes you, or is it just the bread?

 

[Winnie53]

Mike, something else to consider is whether there's a nutrient deficiency. Most of us are deficient in vitamin D and magnesium, many of us need to supplement both. They each in their own way are very important in the management of inflammation, which worsens chronic diseases.

Oops, need to clarify my comments about starches. I still eat some whole food starches, like carrots, but I generally have to walk afterward to get my blood glucose down to manageable levels. Meeting my body's needs is tricky sometimes. Gut flora (microbiome) needs some starchy foods - (need to learn more about resistant starches, haven't gotten that far yet, but will) - but at the same time starchy foods spike my blood glucose levels so I have to take the additional step of walking that sugar off. I'm getting better at this, slowly.

By the way, all carbohydrates become glucose, whole food carbohydrates and processed carbohydrates, as do protein in excess of what's needed at each meal.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

@TorqPenderloin, type 2 and type 1 require different treatments, but both benefit by finding the right diet. Not sure where you're going with your comment. Is something in my post incorrect? If yes, please correct me. Providing accurate information is important to me.

As you wish:

“Your diabetes is worsening because you’re becoming more insulin resistant” isn’t necessarily true. More information would be needed to make that statement without making strong assumptions.


“Based on my readings and experience, your diabetes will continue to progress and worsen, eventually resulting in complications, with or without medication, until you change your diet.” Again, this may or may not be true. At the time you posted this, you had no idea what his a1c levels were, or what his diet looked like. Furthermore, your experiences are relevant and you’re welcome to share them, but they’re not necessarily true of others. It was for this reason that I sarcastically mentioned me having type 1. My readings and experiences are relevant, but not necessarily true of others.


I would agree with your statement that both type 2 and type 1 benefit by finding the right diet, but that’s quite different from what you said in your first post.

 

[Winnie53]

@TorqPenderloin I'm writing from a type 2 perspective, which is Mike's current diagnosis. The driving point of my first post was the tremendous value of diet in managing diabetes, type 2 or type 1.

 

[TorqPenderloin]

@TorqPenderloin I'm writing from a type 2 perspective, which is Mike's current diagnosis. The driving point of my first post was the tremendous value of diet in managing diabetes, type 2 or type 1.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm noting the method in how you initially said it.

Telling someone that they're going to develop complications unless they change their diets is a scare tactic as far as I'm concerned, and it's not necessarily a true statement for everyone.

I'm not saying this to derail the thread. I'm saying this to make sure we remember that just because something is true for us as an individual doesn't mean it's true for everyone.

Our new friend Michael had a recent change in how his body reacted to a slice of toast. Michael also considered a spike to 10 mmol/L a "Dramatic change." Some people WITHOUT diabetes can spike to 10 mmol/L under the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) circumstances.

I just feel that we should ask more questions before we start assuming things that aren't necessarily true.

 

[Oldvatr]

You should not need to supplement zinc or magnesium provided you are eating your greens. It would need to become a major deficiency to make a spike so large. Unlikely, but excessive urination could deplete these water soluble minerals.

The bread sounds ok, for a T2D, and from my experience a reading of 10 or so is possible from a carb or protein rich meal. I used to get higher readings before I took my diet into control. As suggested this is something you might wish to research, Many here benefit from a Low Carb diet to control bgl, and I have seen my levels drop dramatically from the 20+ levels down to the 4 to 6 levels in quite a short while, even while enjoying toast. It may just be that your liver is silting up, and needs a good clearout. LCHF diet is good for this and is easy to do. If this does not shift your bgl then start looking at med changes,

 

[Winnie53]

I'm sometimes wrong. Might be this time too. Don't know. Mike doesn't know either.

When I was diagnosed 10 years ago, not one healthcare practitioner told me I could improve my glucose and insulin levels with the right diet. Not one. I have a real problem with that. After my initial diagnosis I read one book on diabetes. Unfortunately it was the wrong book. It relied heavily on nutritional supplements, not diet. I couldn't afford the long list of supplements, so I ate as healthily as I could: protein, vegetable or fruit, and starch with each meal, a piece of toast with cheese or peanut butter, or fruit for a snack as needed between meals.

When my doctor's office informed me of my A1c of 9.9% a year ago, I was in absolute shock. They wanted to put me on metformin and a statin that week. I declined, but agreed to an appointment in 6 weeks. Within three days I was on the diet that I am on today. My blood glucose stabilized to where it is now in 30 days. How different would my life be today had someone, anyone helped me understand how to "eat to my meter", and to walk every day?

Worse yet, up until a few years ago, most if not all dieticians were recommending the American Diabetes Association's diet. Most still do. There will always be outliers, but most type 2 diabetics get worse on this diet. I just got an email from the ADA asking me for a donation, and to sweeten the request, they provided me with an apple pie recipe.

We've got to start telling type 2 diabetics the truth. T2DM is a lifestyle disease. It takes decades to develop. It takes a commitment to learn which foods make us better and which make us worse to turn it around, but it's absolutely worth the effort.

 

[Winnie53]

@Oldvatr I can't speak for the UK, only the US. Here magnesium levels in the soil have been depleted. In part due to flooding being controlled by dams - (flooding helps replenish the land with minerals) - also due to large scale farming practices. I personally eat 4 cups of leafy greens, 1 serving of spinach, half an avocado, 1 to 2 ounces of nuts, and vegetables with every meal and still need to supplement with magnesium, 450 mg magnesium citrate a day.

You might find this 4 minute video interesting... http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/fasting-for-type-2s.73800/page-6#post-1099279

Michael Greger, MD does not sell nutritional supplements. He has dedicated his life to teaching people how to use a whole foods, plant based diet to reverse chronic disease and to improve health.

Magnesium deficiency in the US is estimated to affect 80% of the population. Magnesium is needed for almost 300 processes in the body. It also plays an important role in managing inflammation. It is one of the most important nutrients needed by the body.

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr I can't speak for the UK, only the US. Here magnesium levels in the soil have been depleted. In part due to flooding being controlled by dams - (flooding helps replenish the land with minerals) - also due to large scale farming practices. I personally eat 4 cups of leafy greens, 1 serving of spinach, half an avocado, 1 to 2 ounces of nuts, and vegetables with every meal and still need to supplement with magnesium, 450 mg magnesium citrate a day.

You might find this 4 minute video interesting... http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/fasting-for-type-2s.73800/page-6#post-1099279

Michael Greger, MD does not sell nutritional supplements. He has dedicated his life to teaching people how to use a whole foods, plant based diet to reverse chronic disease and to improve health.

Magnesium deficiency in the US is estimated to affect 80% of the population. Magnesium is needed for almost 300 processes in the body. It also plays an important role in managing inflammation. It is one of the most important nutrients needed by the body.

The problems with the average US diet are well documented, but in UK we are not so badly affected, and our diet should provide all our micronutrient needs, even LC diets, Why I raised the question of water based minerals and vitamins is that diabetics tend to lose more fluids through frequent urination, and loose bowels from Metformin, and in my case diuretics for heart or BP medication, and this can deplete those nutrients. Alcohol consumption can also aggrevate the situation. Mostly we do not need to supplement, but should consider it if any contributing factors occurs on a regular basis. A multivit tab is recommended to make sure. But to return to topic, it would need a massive depletion to affect how bread is metabolised, and raising bgl as it has been reported shows that metabolism is working, but the endocrine system is not keeping up. Welcome to the world of diabetes.

 

[Winnie53]

That's interesting @Oldvatr I looked around and everything I read repeated what you said about magnesium. That's good.

 

[ladybird64]

I'm sometimes wrong. Might be this time too. Don't know. Mike doesn't know either.

When I was diagnosed 10 years ago, not one healthcare practitioner told me I could improve my glucose and insulin levels with the right diet. Not one. I have a real problem with that. After my initial diagnosis I read one book on diabetes. Unfortunately it was the wrong book. It relied heavily on nutritional supplements, not diet. I couldn't afford the long list of supplements, so I ate as healthily as I could: protein, vegetable or fruit, and starch with each meal, a piece of toast with cheese or peanut butter, or fruit for a snack as needed between meals.

When my doctor's office informed me of my A1c of 9.9% a year ago, I was in absolute shock. They wanted to put me on metformin and a statin that week. I declined, but agreed to an appointment in 6 weeks. Within three days I was on the diet that I am on today. My blood glucose stabilized to where it is now in 30 days. How different would my life be today had someone, anyone helped me understand how to "eat to my meter", and to walk every day?

Worse yet, up until a few years ago, most if not all dieticians were recommending the American Diabetes Association's diet. Most still do. There will always be outliers, but most type 2 diabetics get worse on this diet. I just got an email from the ADA asking me for a donation, and to sweeten the request, they provided me with an apple pie recipe.

We've got to start telling type 2 diabetics the truth. T2DM is a lifestyle disease. It takes decades to develop. It takes a commitment to learn which foods make us better and which make us worse to turn it around, but it's absolutely worth the effort.

I'm sorry, I know you mean well and are attempting to be supportive, but I really must take issue with your last paragraph. It is NOT always a lifestyle disease, in the sense (which it seems you mean) that it is caused solely by diet and exercise issues. There are many, many people, my daughter included, who develop T2 as a result of a pre-existing condition, corticosteroid medication, just to name a couple. Blanket assumptions don't help anyone, especially those mentioned above. By the way, my daughter was in her teens when she was diagnosed, she hadn't even been around for "decades".

 

[Winnie53]

@Canada_Mike On the subject of nutritional deficiencies, found this information for Canadians...

"The Health Canada website shows that 42.7% of all Canadians are deficient in magnesium, though the number is widely believed to be much higher. Men are more deficient than women, likely as a result of how much most men love red meat and alcohol - two key magnesium “stealers.” The most deficient group in Canada, according to the Health Canada map are men in Newfoundland, at 63%." - http://topnutritionals.ca/nutritional-info/natural-calm/magnesium-deficiency.html

Additionally, the medication you take is known to deplete vitamin B12, possibly folate too. Hope you're taking a good quality B-complex... http://www.rexall.ca/articles/view/1897/Glumetza

If you're taking any other medications, I suggest doing a Google search on each one to see if any of them cause nutritional deficiencies, such as: "metformin nutrient depletion".

This article also suggests taking CoQ10 too if taking metformin - (see below)... http://nutritionreview.org/2013/04/practical-guide-avoiding-drug-induced-nutrient-depletion/

"Oral Hypoglycemics
Metformin (Glucophage, Glucophage XR and Glucovance) enhances the action of insulin in cases of insulin resistance, allowing glucose to enter the cells. This reduces elevated blood sugar. A study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine showed that diabetics on metformin had B12 levels that were less than half those of control subjects. The longer the drug had been used and the higher the dose, the greater the drop in B12. (16)

In people with Type 2 diabetes who take metformin therapy, serum folic acid levels decrease 7 percent and vitamin B12 levels decrease by 14 percent. (17) B12 and folic acid depletion also increases homocysteine levels. In addition, metformin may deplete CoQ10, thereby increasing heart disease risk. To reduce these effects, patients should take vitamin B12 (800 mcg), folic acid (400 mcg) and CoQ10 (100 mg daily)."

This article explains how higher intake of magnesium is associated with preventing diabetes and improving insulin resistance, also that "people with type 1 diabetes and low levels of magnesium have more damage to their eyes due to diabetes and also more neuropathy"... http://www.diabetescare.net/authors/clara-schneider/magnesium-diabetes

Best of luck to you as you get this all sorted out.