Weird query

[Brunneria]

Hi All,

I am not LADA, and so this isn't really the right place to post this - if anyone objects, just let me know and I will ask a mod to move it.

But the reason I am posting here is because you lot (LADAites) seem to have an excellent understanding of the kind of fine-tuning of BG control, without insulin, and I would REALLY appreciate your input.

So, I'm 48, obese, LCHF, diet and (a bit of walking). Recently been trying Berberine as a supplement, to no discernable effect, mainly because I keep forgetting the tablets.
A lifetime history of reactive hypoglycaemia, and a truly f*cked up hormone system, with polycystic ovary syndrome and a wee benign tumour in my pituitry gland that pumps out extra prolactin, which knocks nearly every other hormone out of sync. I'm prone to liver dumps and adrenalin silliness that kick in when my BG drops below 5mmol/l - that is full hypo symptoms and a lingering malaise that lasts up to 3 days. I also have a dawn phenomenon that is approx +2.5 of my usual fasting.

Since finding this forum and switching from LC to LCHF, I have achieved what I consider to be good control of my BG. Rarely above 7mmol/l, rarely below the 5mmol/l barrier. I've been in a happy place, and eating to my meter. Dawn phenomenon is higher than I would like, but has not responded to LCHF, and reacts massively to stress and disturbed sleep, suggesting that the stress hormones are in charge.

For the first 10 months or so of LCHF I was very slowly losing weight (an unexpected bonus), but then the weight loss stalled.
In retrospect, it was when I discovered how fab I felt on higher protein, and started eating it more (e.g. 2 good sausages at breakfast, crustless quiche at lunch and a 2-3 chicken thighs for evening meal, with accompanying veg, cream and cheese, maybe some berries and cream for pud).
I was still in the 5.5-7ish range, and it took a while to realise that gluconeogenesis was playing a part. Bernstein is great, isn't he?

Now I HAVE realised it, I have been cutting back on the protein, in the hope of lowering BG to the bottom end of my comfort zone, a bit more weight loss, and less pressure on my beta cells.

(sorry about all that background info)

But here's my query:

Do you have any idea why cutting back on the protein is making me feel pretty cr*ppy no matter how much fat I eat? (wobbly, hollow, more lethargic)
It ain't carb flu - I've been in and around ketosis consistently for 18 months.
My average BG has probably only dropped by 0.5-1.0mmol/l or less, at any given time since reducing the protein.
My carbs are usually 20-40g a day, rarely above 50g.

I'm trying to make up my mind whether to try and stick it out for a few weeks of feeling miserable, and hope I adjust.
Or shrug, accept that with my ridiculous hormonal cocktail and other issues, if the higher protein is a good idea and I should go back to it.

 

[tim2000s]

Hi Brun, sorry to hear you are feeling like that, but here's a question for you. How much protein are you eating now? I ask because I wonder whether it is a change in the amount of amino acids that you are now receiving that may be affecting you.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks, and good question.

Yesterday's food was:
B: 9bar with a smallish coffee with a good slug of double cream
L: crustless quiche and coyo
D: huge portion of cauli cheese with 1/4 mattersons sausage, chillies (it had a good handful of grated cheddar in it)
S: one enormously heaped teasp of peanut butter
As you can see, it still isn't a LOW protein diet!

By late evening, I was feeling a bit hollow/wobbly, hence the peanut butter, but it wasn't hunger, it was more of a sensation in the muscles and around the back, where low BG hits me more in the cheekbones, stomach and knees. If that makes sense.

Would the amino acids change dramatically by switching from mainly meat/fish protein to more dairy/plant protein?

 

[Pasha]

Thanks, and good question.

Yesterday's food was:
B: 9bar with a smallish coffee with a good slug of double cream
L: crustless quiche and coyo
D: huge portion of cauli cheese with 1/4 mattersons sausage, chillies (it had a good handful of grated cheddar in it)
S: one enormously heaped teasp of peanut butter
As you can see, it still isn't a LOW protein diet!

By late evening, I was feeling a bit hollow/wobbly, hence the peanut butter, but it wasn't hunger, it was more of a sensation in the muscles and around the back, where low BG hits me more in the cheekbones, stomach and knees. If that makes sense.

Would the amino acids change dramatically by switching from mainly meat/fish protein to more dairy/plant protein?

Looks to me like you are not getting enough protein and probably not from the best sources. ie meat eggs fish .......etc .ie like Tim said its a matter of quantity and quality.
I can tell you that I did quite a long trial eating the minimal daily required amount of protein ie 56 grams /day for a male . Together with very low carbs I got very good BG results.
I have now changed or increased this intake to 104 grams/day and feel much much better. My FBG value has increased from around 73 mg/dl to around 81 mg/dl. I far prefer feeling better with the higher BG results.
In addition I needed to increase the red meat protein because of decreasing haemoglobin values.
At the risk of boring you too much see here,

http://authoritynutrition.com/how-much-protein-per-day/

N.B Bernstein advises higher daily intakes than advised in the above article, his advice gave me the confidence to make the big change in protein portion size.

 

[LucySW]

Hello Gorgeous.

I can't add nuffin technical, that's Tim's job.

It sounds as if it's a choice between feeling great on slightly higher BG, and feeling awful on better BG. Hmmm.

OTOH, if you could be sure that the rest of your body is happy with higher protein , by getting checkups every so often - kidneys, trigs, HDL, the amount of small dense LDL, or even better the LDL-P particle number or ApoB which is a marker for that, ideally also CRP for inflammation - you might conclude that eating higher protein just suits you.

Those tests would have to be private, I think. I'm contemplating getting some of them myself in the UK. Can't get none of that fancy stuff in DK.

And yes, Bernstein is wonderful. I just looked at my numbers with the Libre this morning and, duh, the reason my BGs have gone off again is that I was ignoring the dawn phenomenon and that I'd strayed from less-carb-at-breakfast. He is right, just right, about both. I love him.

I love the Libre too.

Loose

 

[LucySW]

@Ian DP will have relevant experience for you.

 

[tim2000s]

Having done a spot of internet reading, it suggests that you may not be eating enough protein (like I alluded to earlier). It's possible that the symptoms you describe are the body using your own protein sources for amino acids (i.e. breaking down your muscles).

You should be able to get what you need from dairy and vegetable sources, but you should check quite how much you are or aren't eating.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks all - you are confirming what my body feels - that I may need the higher protein.
And the only way to really find the line between too much and too little is something I really hate - shedloads of detailed weighing, measuring and testing.

* rolls up sleeves*

 

[LucySW]

Yes,but perhaps you should do some checking, too.

 

[LucySW]

Brunnerissima, You could try some Jason Fung. He's on Diet Doctor and around and about. His thing is that fasting - real fasting, water only- resets insulin sensitivity.

I did a little Fung yesterday, from 9am to 9pm. I'd have liked to skip supper too, but spousey would have fretted. But anyway, I felt magnificent. Not at all hungry (last thing I'd had was a cream coffee, that always keeps me satisfied for hours), and alert and lots of energy. I have a Libre at the mo, and it was really interesting to see it completely flat at about 4.0. Biked home and up my hill at 7pm, no problem. My Ketonix will like it too.

Anyway, he argues that a bit of intermittent fasting can get you past LCHF stalls.

Salutations from Lucia

 

[Ian DP]

Hi brunneria
Sorry a bit late in replying, travelling / visiting family at the moment, with only my phone and mobile signal.... And seeing my BG gradually rise, as they always do when travelling.

My feeling is, not enough fat. Although i can't tell from looking at your typical days food intake as I can't tell the quantities.

As you say, increasing your protein will likely increase your BG levels, and may worsen your cholesterol etc.

I use the myfitnesspal app. It is a bit fiddly and time consuming, but when you input a typical days food, drink and exercise the info it produces is fantastic, and I have found it to be very accurate. It will tell you your carb/protein/fat % (mine is 5% carb, 15% protein and 80% fat - which is about the ratio must LcHf experts agree is ideal). But it also tells you if you are eating sufficient vitamins etc. I try to complete one day of myfitnesspal input every month, just to make sure nothing has changed.

I used to suffer from the Dawn phenomenon, a few thing I do, each of which help me reduce my pre breakfast BG reading:-
1) test as soon as you get up, then eat something little (fatty and a little carby) with water or black tea or coffee. Check BG an hour after eating to make sure your BG levels has not risen too much. An hour after my breakfast snack I have fried eggs and bacon
2) if you awake during the night / have a disturbed sleep, have a long glass of water (say at 4:00am)
These work for me, maybe worth trying to see if it works for you.
I also try very hard to only eat 'natural ' food and thus try hard to avoid any processed food (but I do eat bacon). I think there are a lot of hidden chemicals in processed food.
Your typical meal looked like it included a lot of processed food.... By which I include anything made / mixed up in a packet. Even lettuce in a packet has added stuff added to it to make the colours better and sell by date longer!!!

But at the end of the day, if more protein makes you feel better you have to go with it. But if that doesn't work, try the 80% fat diet. Dr Trudi Deakins 'Eat Fat' book is excellent. I was already 80% fat when I read her book (following Dr Bernstein) but her book explains the healthy side of the 80% fat (she I believe is not diabetic)

I think you are doing really well, and just need to fine tune a little, and thus would advise that you don't change anything drastic, change a little at a time, check you BG more often when you make a change, and see what happens.

 

[Ian DP]

.... And myfitnesspal will also predict your weight decrease / increase.

 

[Ian DP]

Should also add, that upping your fat intake (more meat cheese etc) will also increase your protein... I now find it hard to eats lots of fat without lots of protein.... So I now eat more double cream, coconut oil, real mayonnaise, grass fed butter etc, as they are high fat, low protein.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi, thanks @Ian DP

I'm actually pretty low on processed - home made crustless quiche and cauli cheese, etc. I think that day, the only processed was the mattersons and coyo, which is dairy free coconut yog, nil carbs, and an excellent fat content. I've tried making my own coconut yog but it has never been satisfactory.

The last time I did the MyFitnessPal data entry ordeal, I was pretty close to 5:15:80 although that varies day to day, mainly due to protein variations.

One of the reasons I upped the protein at the end of last year was because I felt I had already upped my fat to about my personal limit.

But thank you for your input.

I think I need to do some experiments, a few days on higher protein again, then a few lower protein, then with higher fat - if I can cram it in... And I will have to carefully take note of when the hollow feeling strikes.

Yesterday was a family party day, and I ate over 50g carbs and a bit lower fat. While my BG was interesting (understatement!) there was no hollowness.

So many variables!

 

[LucySW]

I think you just have to use that old trial and error method, what joy.

But I th you should try to monitor - oh, inflammation and LDL-P. If its possible. Which generally it isn't.

 

[Brunneria]

Lol. Funny you should mention inflammation!

Yesterday's carbs = rheumatic pains in my hand joints this morning.
So I think that may be a fairly useful (but HIGHLY unscientific) gauge of inflammation...

 

[Daffodils1]

Hi, no expert at all, but just wondering about salt...would your salt intake have gone down at all when you cut your protein...that could make you feel a bit off.

Still figuring out myself how much more salt needed when on low carb, but interested in how key Phinney and Volek (recent holiday reading!!!) think it is if eating less than 50g carb.

 

[Pasha]

Re salt we are all different, I no longer add any salt to my food. Feeling well,no night time cramps , stable blood pressure and heartbeat.

 

[Lamont D]

Hi @Brunneria
Just something I've noticed about being in ketosis, I'm not suggesting it by the way!
Is the little things, like joints swelling, arthritis, etc.
I've said before, that the likes of other bodily functions and feelings have now just that normal.
For instance, no plaque, solid and regular stools, no indigestion, no stomach problems which have dogged my life. Plus others, my hands were in a terrible state after retiring from my job before I got this one!
I have had ops on both hands and injections for movement between my thumbs and fingers. Carpel tunnel op has made a great difference.
My knees were always sore in my last job etc.

This last year, has seen improvements in not only my body but my activity and my aches and pains are in remission.

I can only put this down to my lifestyle, mainly diet, mainly ketosis.
I don't do the heavy counting stuff, I think I am so used to eating very, very low carb and little and often.
With full fat with protein and of course plenty of yoghurt.
Don't think it will help, but you are in a quandary and I thought a bit of a morale boast was in order.

Don't worry too much about these little things, you know when you are right.

 

[Brunneria]

@Daffodils1 , actually, the salt thing is not a bad idea...!

After so long on LCHF, I've learned to supplement potassium and magnesium in hot weather, and drink broth daily. Plus a bit added to cooking. So I may have got a bit blasé about salt.

But if I have reduced protein by reducing or avoiding protein breakfasts - and often replaced them with bulletproof coffee - then I've reduced salt intake by quite a lot... Thank you!

Yet another variable to check out. And definitely one I can confirm or eliminate in a relatively short time.