Who Thinks Eating Protein makes Blood Glucose?

Jen&Khaleb

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After a topic in a different post I would like to ask people if they think eating Protein makes Blood Glucose directly. The only way I found for this to happen was for protein to go to the muscles and tissues and then the body using glycogenesis from those tissues to covert to glycogen to be stored in the liver. It seemed quite a complex process and something the body did to supply the brain with energy in the absence of glucose from carbohydrate.

What are your thoughts or research?

Jen
 

cugila

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Here is a few links which might help you better understand the chemistry behind the process of Gluconeogenesis.
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/food9.htm

This about Proteins.
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/food3.htm

This about the actions of Gluconeogenesis more technically. Maybe your Scientist sister can then explain it more fully, the biochemistry ?
http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm ... nesis.html

Hope that helps ? No, I am not an avid low carber by the way, just believe in reduction as a tool to help my Diabetes. I do believe in the process as described, but I am not a Scientist. I just read and digest an awful lot. I think I should get out more..... :lol:
 

jopar

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I've not checked out Cugila links...

But it is only a percentage of the total amount of protien we eat that will turn into glucose effecting the blood glucose levels... it's something like just under 50% is broken down into Glucose this process because of it complexity is a slow process... In theory yes protien can feed the body requirements for glucose..

Gluconeogenesis in theory works, but in practice it tends not to work very well... As it's a slow process, which means at times it's unable to keep up feeding the energy the body requires so you still end up with a hypo... If you then try to use a protien source to treat the hypo, you would likely end up in big trouble, as at this stage fast acting carbs is the quickest and safest way of getting the Blood glucose back to noraml...

If I decide to have an omlette for a meal, then I do need a little bit of insulin to cover as my blood sugar will raise... But if I'm eating a small amount of protien with some carbs, then the actually protien has very little effect on my blood sugars so no allowance used to cover...

what actually does need to be remembered is T1 diabetic who claim to use a Protien based diet the extreme low carb diet to acheive good control... will be more than likey using 3 different types of insulin, long medium and quick acting to match the raise of glucose from the protien source... And yes they still suffer hypo's and a lot will still use fasting acting carbohydrates before or durning intese or stemia (extended) type exercises...
 

cugila

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What's with all this IN THEORY ......? It is not any longer a theory, it's a scentific fact. :?

The gluconeogenesis process begins with pyruvic acid and ends with glucose. The reversal of this process is glycolysis, which starts with glucose and ends with pyruvic acid, but a few of the steps in the middle are different. Gluconeogenesis bypasses three of the steps in glycolysis because the energy required is too much to be reversed. Though many of the same amino acids are used, it is not an identical reversal.

In gluconeogenesis, the first step converts pyruvic acid to oxaloacetic acid. Then, if enough ATP is present in relation to the amount of Acetyl-CoA, the process continues with catalyzing enzymes at each stage propelling the process forward. The major steps of the pathway from start to finish are:

Pyruvic Acid -> Oxaloacetic Acid -> Phosphoenolpyruvate <-> Phosphoglycerate <-> Bisphosphoglycerate <-> Glyceraldehyde 3-Phosphate and Dihydroxyacetonephosphate <-> Fructose-1, 6-Bisphosphate -> Fructose-6-Phosphate <-> Glucose-6-Phosphate -> Glucose

This process is significant not just because it is the energy source for specific vital organs, but also because it helps stabilize blood glucose levels when things go awry. During prolonged fasting, gluconeogenesis kicks in to produce the glucose needed to keep blood supplied with critical levels. Glucose is important for many functions of the body. Typically, when carbohydrates are consumed, blood glucose levels rise and the body stores this dietetic source of energy as glycogen in the liver.

When fasting ensues, glycogen stores are processed and released into the blood as glucose. With prolonged fasting, these glycogen stores in the liver are depleted. This triggers the body to process adipose triacylglycerols into fatty acids to be used as fuel, and glycerol to be used in gluconeogenesis. It also triggers amino acids to be released from the muscles. The presence of these and other precursors are the catalyst for the process of gluconeogenesis to begin.
 

NickW

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Like cugila, I'm a bit confused as to why this is even a debate. It's not a theory or a postulation, it's a simple process of chemical reactions that DOES happen in the human body.

jopar, you say that "in practice it tends not to work very well". It works PERFECTLY in practice; i.e. it does exactly what it's meant to do. In my opinion it's important for low-carbers to know about it as it does affect blood glucose on a low-carb diet, but I don't think anyone is trying to make out it's some magical process that will stabilise your blood sugars perfectly and will mean you never go hypo. Likewise I don't think anyone is suggesting eating protein to treat hypos instead of fast-acting carbs. And as you say, if you eat enough carbs then the effect is so minimal as to be ignored.

That said, gluconeogenesis can provide the body's glucose requirements - as shown by the poeple who eat VLCD or zero-carb diets for long periods. In diabetics (particularly T1's) it's impractical because we have imperfect control and may need carbs to bring us out of hypos - but aside from hypo treatment, you could eat zero-carb and have enough glucose to survive and function well. You'd probably run with very depleted glycogen stores which would inhibit moderate-high intensity exercise (though not low intensity or occasional very-high intensity exercise), and it might not be what you want to do - but you could do it.

I eat a low-carb diet which is therefore inevitably high-protein and high-fat, and it does give me good control. I'm not claiming it's a magic bullet though - of course I use different insulins (2 in my case, just a fast and slow acting), and measure frequently, and still have hypos which I treat with dextrose. I'm not trying to pretend protein magically solves all these issues. But it's important for me to take into account the effect of gluconeogenesis as well as the few carbs I eat, because it does affect my blood levels. And eating this way dropped by HbA1c from the 7's to the low-6's in 11 weeks, and my blood glucose is currently averaging 5.7 for the past 3 weeks (predicted A1C of about 5.2).

As an aside, I don't often fuel exercise with carbs either - very-high-intensity exercise will be covered by hepatic glucose release (and actually required a small injection of insulin to prevent a spike), while I'm sufficiently fat-adapted to be comfotable on very long-duration stuff without carbs, I just lower my morning basal does a little. It's only the fairly-intense stuff in the middle that needs fuelling with carbs.
 

fergus

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Excellent posts Ken and NickW.
There's absoutely no question that gluconeogenesis is a very highly adapted mechanism which works perfectly well in all 'real-world' situations.
In theory at least, our bodies are fueled via this process for significant periods every day. Assuming dietary nutrients are used up within 4 hours post-meal, and we eat three meals per day, gluconeogenesis may even provide the necessary energy for the remaining 12 hours.
The ad hoc nature of the process is perhaps its greatest strength and arguably its weakness too. On a diet in which carbohydrate predominates, gluconeogenesis is supressed such that modern dieticians tend to ignore it. Without those carbohydrates, protein consumption can be a very significant source of blood glucose - up to 60% potentially.
I think it's this variability in the impact of protein on blood glucose that can make it a little difficult to figure out at first. However, and particularly for type 2 diabetics, it's the ability of protein to metabolise into glucose in a more controlled way that makes it such a perfectly well suited method of normalising blood glucose levels.

All the best,

fergus
 

jopar

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As such T2 isn't relevant in the T1 forum so using this is a very misleading...

I used the term theory because it's written down... And as we are all aware that there are many things that when written down make perfet sense and shows that it works...

But as soon as it put into practice, it doesn't work quite as well as paper...

Using protien as an energy source is very much like this, as well there will be times that the speed of asorbtion of the protien and the breakdown into glucose and energy isn't going to be quick enough to maintain the blood glucose levels...

You also get the problem that carbs are higher in the calorific counts, so you would require a lot more protien to get the same calorific value as you would if you ate carbs... Which for some people can actually cause problems, as can they managed to actually eat suficent amount of protien to maintain there energy needs?

I am probably a prime example of this, I am not a big eater far from it, how ever I do burn a lot of energy when I am working...

I know what amount of calories I require to get me from breakfast to breaktime, and breaktime to dinner time so on... If we consider an 2 egge omlette made with milk cheese as a filling I would allow about 2 units of insulin to cover, having an insulin pump I would deliver these 2 units over an 1 1/2 hour period... To me a standard 2 egg omlette is more than enough for a main meal for me...

So one could say that I could have this for breakfast and it should last me the morning! But I do know it doesn't matter what Gluconeogenesis say sould happen it isn't going to... Even if I didn't take the insulin for the omlette I would still burn off more than it could deliver in energy, as well even with my normal carb breakfast I still have a 2 hour period where I have no basal (background) insulin being delivered... And at breaktime I'm around the 4 mark... which then a chunky kitkat (work treat) and 1 unit of insulin keeps me going to dinner time and producing another 4 reading...

I would test my knowledge of my control out, just to prove it but alas I vaule my limbs a bit too much to prove my point... I'm a dog handler, so cover around 15 miles in a day, which about 6 of those I can run! But it's not because I am scared of having a hypo but working with dogs of verious breeds, and some of these breeds can be dangerous and are very large, the wrong dog thats highly strung and reacts badly to me having an hypo puts me in very serious danger indeed...
 

cugila

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Jopar.

???? :?

Just for you (as a T2 who is not relevant) I have moved this to Diabetes Discussions area...

The OP put it in the T1 forum area and it is not about whether it is beneficial or not it was in answer to a question - Who thinks eating Protein makes Blood Glucose ? Well the answer is yes, it does... It has no bearing if you are T1, T2 or normal human beings... It is all down to human biology and chemistry...

:D
 

fergus

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You also get the problem that carbs are higher in the calorific counts, so you would require a lot more protien to get the same calorific value as you would if you ate carbs...

I think you'll find that there are 4 calories per gram of protein, exactly the same as for carbohydrate.

fergus
 

jopar

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Oh well, the powers of moderation when a point is made to the relavance of a question is questioned move the goal post or should I say post hmmm

I haven't said it didn't turn into glucose!

It was hinted that to follow and use Gluconeogenesis to control diabetes, as in removing as many carbs from your diet as possible and relying of protien for energy source... I just pointed out that in practice this does fail in the T1 diabetic.. I gave clear indication that I do calculate protien when necessary, and showed a situation when relying on protien alone doesn't work and isn't appropiate method of controlling diabetes in a satifactuory way...

Or was it the mention of actually taking andvantage of my energy out put, and treating myself to a kitkat that was upsetting to some?
 

cugila

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sugarless sue

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What are your thoughts or research?

Jopar, as a former moderator even you would have shifted this question to Discussions!!

This question has been thoroughly covered in the answers and it is nothing to do with low carbing or otherwise, just a question of human biology.
 

Handyníall

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Anything that'll wake us up before noon on a weekend...
I'm not up to speed with my glyconeogenesis, or my Kreb's Cycle, or my link reactions... Or NADs and FAD etc. etc. since the last time I studied it was 2 years ago for my ILC.

But, I vaguely remember something about glucagon stimulating liver and muscle cells to release protein that would then be converted via glyconeogenesis to glucose? It was sort of a last gasp effort, the body wouldn't use it if it had a better fuel source (glucose or glycogen for example)...?

I think I'm right because it explained why marathon runners tend to be stick thin...

However, feel free to correct. Like I said, it's been a couple of years.
 

fergus

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Kinda.....
Gluconeogenesis generates glucose via a metabolic pathway converting lactate, amino acids and glycerol.
I like to think of it as a natural evolutionary strategy to help us avoid the horror that is the chunky Kit-Kat. :wink:

fergus
 

Romola

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From my, admittedly long ago, biochemstry - I understood that this process was primarily to deal with excess protein in the diet, rather than as a supply of glucose/energy.

ie, to provide a source of glucose, it is inefficient; but as a metabolic solution leading to the turning of unneeded protein into waste products, it works well.

Overworking the kidneys instead of eating a small amount of complex carbs seems a daft idea to me.
 

Dillinger

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Hi Jen,

I see that this started as a response to a comment I made in another thread; I hope the above has cleared some of this up? Cugila's post was particularly good I thought; with a lot more information than I actually had.

One of the things with this is that the body preferentially metabolises glucose, so if you have a 'enough' glucose (from the body's point of view) then the protein gluconeogenesis won't happen.

From Romola's post; I don't believe that this process constitutes 'overworking' the kidneys; its just part of the astonishingly complex and beautiful homeostatic processes that go on in our bodies; if you go running and breath more heavily you're not 'overworking' your lungs; they are just responding to the requirements of your body.

All the best

Dillinger
 

Romola

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Well no - it isn't over working the kidneys under normal circumstances. I was thinking more of the diets of extreme non-carbers who have it in mind to get most of their glucose via this route.
 

kegstore

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Romola said:
Overworking the kidneys instead of eating a small amount of complex carbs seems a daft idea to me.
I was going to stay out of this one, but the mention of kidney peaked my interest!

There's no evidence that normally functioning kidneys are damaged or even overworked by ingesting large amounts of dietary protein. As hoards of low- and non-carbers will testify! It's only when there is some degree of nephropathy present that such food needs to be restricted. There are are other much more significant factors that affect long-term kidney health for diabetics with a healthy set of organs (bg, bp).

I'll shut up now!
 

Romola

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I don't intend getting into arguments with low-carbers - life is too short.

But on our recent Xpert Patient course, it was pointed out that many newly diagnosed diabetics have already sustained damage to various organs and tissues prior to diagnosis. Some of this damage won't become evident immediately.

I still think it is a reckless strategy unless you know for certain that kidneys are fully healthy, and havn't been impaired at all previously.

But then - this is where this forum helps. We can all make informed choices.
 

kegstore

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It's a very good point. It's a sad fact that the often insidious nature of T2 means that such diagnoses are sometimes made only as a result of complications being presented first.

And I also err on the side of safety when it comes to my kidneys!