Insulin response of Reactive Hypoglycaemics

lindisfel

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Hi all,
Those of us with R.H. have an atypical insulin response and/or process carbohydrates very rapidly.

I peak on carbs at c.1hr post first bite and if I peak high I can go low if I exercise at +2hrs from first bite.

Clearly I produce plenty of insulin but the peak possibly occurs after 1 hour.

Hence, although I have a bmi below 25 I still get N.A.F.L.D. unless I stop eating carbs.

Do I have insulin resistance? I think not.

Do I have an anomalous insulin response? Probably. Insulin has almost certainly given me N.A.F.L.D.

Do I process high GI carbs too quickly? Very probably.

What should ones ideal insulin response be and what is 'normal'?
Many thanks for your responses.

regards
Derek
 
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Lamont D

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15,796
Type of diabetes
Reactive hypoglycemia
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Hi all,
Those of us with R.H. have an atypical insulin response and/or process carbohydrates very rapidly.

I peak on carbs at c.1hr post first bite and if I peak high I can go low if I exercise at +2hrs from first bite.

Clearly I produce plenty of insulin but the peak possibly occurs after 1 hour.

Hence, although I have a bmi below 25 I still get N.A.F.L.D. unless I stop eating carbs.

Do I have insulin resistance? I think not.

Do I have an anomalous insulin response? Probably. Insulin has almost certainly given me N.A.F.L.D.

Do I process high GI carbs too quickly? Very probably.

What should ones ideal insulin response be and what is 'normal'?
Many thanks for your responses.

regards
Derek

Hi Derek,
How are you?

No I really don't think you are insulin resistant!
Yes, we spike really quickly between the half hour till after an hour, mine is around forty minutes, but it all depends on what I eat, wether digestion is quick or quicker!
Being on my meds has not changed that.
NAFL does tend to give you insulin resistance in 'normal' people, but because of the imbalance of our hormones, we have surplus insulin, that turns into visceral fat and that gives you the fatty liver, and of course the hypos!!
Eventually, the fatty liver will recover back to normal levels, as mine did, because of the low carb lifestyle. Nothing else! Losing weight helps, if you have any to lose!

I have discussed the insulin response with my endocrinologist and he is not aware why except that he accepts that we do! This is why some endocrinologists insist that there is not a condition as such.
Why do we use our glucose up quickly?
It's because we flood our blood with insulin because of the trigger that carbs and other sugars have the effect it does on us. We are left with too much Insulin as an overshoot, and that is not good!
 

Brunneria

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have a gander at this link.
http://rajeun.net/gtt.html

it is a while since I read it properly, and I remember being distinctly unimpressed with some of the commentary, but there are some graphs that show the differences between normal, RH and D OGTT curves which you may find very interesting.

But there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

Firstly, eating low carb for any length of time downgrades the body's ability to produce insulin at the drop of a hat. So the amount of insulin someone produces will depend on how many carbs they have been eating recently. At the moment, my response would be abysmal, because my body has been eating LC for so long. IT would take a couple of weeks or so to re-awaken my insulin response, at which point I could be given an OGTT and compared with non-low carbers.

Secondly, the height and angle of the curve does not describe the amount of insulin or insulin resistance. That is a different test. People can have a normal OGTT test result, but have a lot of insulin resistance. They are just pumping out huge amounts of insulin to cover the resistance, yet the line looks perfectly normal.

Hope that helps.
 
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lindisfel

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Hi Nosher,
Thanks, have been a bit under the weather the last two weeks. And the weather is appalling up here.

I am hoping my next GGT will be even better but it doesn't look as if medicine, other than low carb, will do me any good!
The profession did not know what was causing high GGT in a non alcoholic!
Will post the result next tuesday.

Hope you and your wife are well.
regards
Derek


Hi Derek,
How are you?

No I really don't think you are insulin resistant!
Yes, we spike really quickly between the half hour till after an hour, mine is around forty minutes, but it all depends on what I eat, wether digestion is quick or quicker!
Being on my meds has not changed that.
NAFL does tend to give you insulin resistance in 'normal' people, but because of the imbalance of our hormones, we have surplus insulin, that turns into visceral fat and that gives you the fatty liver, and of course the hypos!!
Eventually, the fatty liver will recover back to normal levels, as mine did, because of the low carb lifestyle. Nothing else! Losing weight helps, if you have any to lose!

I have discussed the insulin response with my endocrinologist and he is not aware why except that he accepts that we do! This is why some endocrinologists insist that there is not a condition as such.
Why do we use our glucose up quickly?
It's because we flood our blood with insulin because of the trigger that carbs and other sugars have the effect it does on us. We are left with too much Insulin as an overshoot, and that is not good!
 
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lindisfel

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Lamont D

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All bloody wind and rain, can't move out of the house without having your thermals on or your rain jacket, temperature keeps bouncing around, cold one hour, warm the next.
And real winter hasn't started yet!
I'm really good, haven't worked as much, due to weather but will be busy up and around Christmas.
The wife's done her chrimbo shopping all on line!

Unfortunately, I agree, low carb is the answer, maybe, if you've heard about sitagliptin being helpful to other RH ers, then you could join me, as it has helped me. But yes, stick to low carb, little and often.
 
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Lamont D

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This link goes to an interesting article on the bloodsugar101 website explaining how the insulin response can deteriorate, as we move towards diabetes - long before any of the usual tests run by doctors will show any abnormalities.

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/51/suppl_1/S117.full

I'm not going to get in a bit of fracas with you Brun, over this article, but!
The first paragraph elaborates on a bilateral response of action towards a meal, of insulin on the glucose by the beta cells etc.
Of course this is by those who do not have RH!
RH does not do this, we only have a unilateral reaction, that is why we spike so quickly, and use our glucose up, hence the excessive insulin.
I had this explained to me by my specialist because of my tests done.
It is a hormonal imbalance.
I would imagine that whatever the article concludes in degenerative action to our response would not apply.
I'm going to hide in the corner of the forum and turn the light off!
 

Brunneria

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I'm not going to get in a bit of fracas with you Brun, over this article, but!
The first paragraph elaborates on a bilateral response of action towards a meal, of insulin on the glucose by the beta cells etc.
Of course this is by those who do not have RH!
RH does not do this, we only have a unilateral reaction, that is why we spike so quickly, and use our glucose up, hence the excessive insulin.
I had this explained to me by my specialist because of my tests done.
It is a hormonal imbalance.
I would imagine that whatever the article concludes in degenerative action to our response would not apply.
I'm going to hide in the corner of the forum and turn the light off!

oh lol noshy.
I didn't post it because I think it directly applies to RHers, but a lot of RHers go on to develop T2 (like me) so we can have multiple things going on simultaneously, which is always going to muddy the water, and make RH even more difficult to diagnose.

But that article is very informative on what happens to T2s... so comparisons can be made - highlighting the similarities as well as the differences. When I discovered that article I found it fascinating mainly because there is so much going on before T2 diagnosis - and most people (doctors) don't even know this happens.

The trouble is, there seems to be so little research on RHers.
I mean, I have always wondered do I produce too much insulin?
- is my insulin off switch the faulty thing?
- or do I produce too little glucagon?
- are those two the same, or slightly different?
- or do I just have mis-timed releases, which puts everything out of wack?
I have never come across any research that even looks at these questions, and frankly, I have just about given up looking...

If anyone knows of such research, please let me know!:)
 
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Lamont D

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oh lol noshy.
I didn't post it because I think it directly applies to RHers, but a lot of RHers go on to develop T2 (like me) so we can have multiple things going on simultaneously, which is always going to muddy the water, and make RH even more difficult to diagnose.

But that article is very informative on what happens to T2s... so comparisons can be made - highlighting the similarities as well as the differences. When I discovered that article I found it fascinating mainly because there is so much going on before T2 diagnosis - and most people (doctors) don't even know this happens.

The trouble is, there seems to be so little research on RHers.
I mean, I have always wondered do I produce too much insulin?
- is my insulin off switch the faulty thing?
- or do I produce too little glucagon?
- are those two the same, or slightly different?
- or do I just have mis-timed releases, which puts everything out of wack?
I have never come across any research that even looks at these questions, and frankly, I have just about given up looking...

If anyone knows of such research, please let me know!:)

I am in my expert view (ha!) Gonna try and answer your questions honestly as I can!
But, I could be wrong and I've asked various similar questions often beginning with why? And why me?

First, yes you probably do! My endo calls it an overshoot.
Second, as far as I'm aware the whole hormonal imbalance thing starts with your glucose/glucagon/ insulin ratio dictated by your alpha and beta cells. Once you eat and the trigger is pulled the initial glucose load is swamped by insulin and your pancreas keeps producing more until it's happy it's got rid of the glucose.
Third, don't know, but would suspect it. If we are to assume that glucagon works to offset insulin, then having more insulin than glucagon is not good, maybe because insulin drowns and floods the blood, glucose is got rid of glucose fast and with the excess, the glucagon is swamped and ineffectual. There is also glycogen, which forms part of a liver dump when necessary and because that we are low carb, then when that is released, the effect is not as bad as glucose or glucagon.
Four, as above, I think!
Five, could be! Because it is a blood glucose/hormonal/insulin imbalance disorder. (Wow! Sounding so professional now!) There must be something not quite right!
The trigger, the quick use of glucose, too low glucagon and the excess insulin must be up and down, especially as now we have trained our systems to anticipate too much or too little carbs!
Hence our awareness of hypos!
And our reactions to them, my last one in hospital was a doozie!
Had me ill for a couple of days.

I know it is not a factual or scientific answers you wanted and I do know my endo is doing some good work on RH, But (again!) The treatment is what is important, rather than the scientific mumbo jumbo, that we scratched our heads over the past few years.

Knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I think I may have the hang of it, and I am always looking for other research especially the relationship between glucose and carb overloading in sport.
I have read some reports from universities in the United States that are looking at the collaboration between diabetes and glucose and the advent of RH in long distance sportsmen and women, especially endurance sports! Also too much fructose!

I read somewhere, that you would be better putting a spoonful of cane sugar in water, than drink glucose. The recovery benefits are much better than fruit juice or just water. And nutritionally better! Believe it or not.
 

Brunneria

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Interesting thanks :) but you know I am gonna ask you for the links to those american university research papers, don't you?

:D:D:D
 
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Lamont D

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Well, it's like this!
I just Google away and don't download stuff like you do!
And I just can't do the link thing from this phone of mine, I've tried and dramatically failed with my old computer, nearly bust the old boy, when trying!

Sorry, Brun!

Some of the papers I get are from links from Wikipedia! Mostly by linking them one after another, it's ambiguous, I know, but that's what I do!
 

lindisfel

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Hi all,
I am a little disappointed today my GGT has gone up slightly to 86.
Will just have try harder and possibly have different anticoagulant meds.
Fact is low carb has stopped all exercise hypos from starting on low carb.
Got a small set of weights and will be doing more walking once this horrid weather stops.
regards
Derek


Hi Nosher,
Thanks, have been a bit under the weather the last two weeks. And the weather is appalling up here.

I am hoping my next GGT will be even better but it doesn't look as if medicine, other than low carb, will do me any good!
The profession did not know what was causing high GGT in a non alcoholic!
Will post the result next tuesday.

Hope you and your wife are well.
regards
Derek
 
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Lamont D

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15,796
Type of diabetes
Reactive hypoglycemia
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I do not have diabetes
True Derek, don't miss out on your exercise, I always feel much better if I keep working and doing things. I'm in the middle of building out grotto for the kids and grandkids (and me!)

We seem to be extremely lucky with the weather around here, we have missed most of the heavy rain and our footie games should be on this weekend. Can't believe we missed all that just north of us here, really bad wasn't it?

Hope you get your meds sorted mate!
 
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Jey

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Hey Derek Hope it will settle soon back down. When do u have the next blood test again? All the best, Hope and hard work moves mountains :rolleyes:.
 
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Linagirl

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What is GGT? Sorry for my ignorance. Hope all ok with you all and you are all safe is this horrid weather. Xx
 
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lindisfel

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Thanks all of you for your encouragement.

Those of us in this 'fix' have to be fighters.
I shall give it my best shot to solve the problem.

I thought I had sorted breakfast, but I shall have to change my diet, other meals are OK. It is the small amount of porridge and half apple spiking me at +1hr after first bite. I was 8.5 this am and I must have produced a lot of insulin because I was 5.5 at 90 mins after first bite!

As Nosher says, we are all unique!
I must have early R.H.! :)
atb
Derek
 
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lindisfel

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Hi Lina, GGT is an indication of Fatty Liver Disease, a precursor to cancer and heart attacks. Cutting out carbs usually brings it down to normal but I have meds that can make it worse.
regards
Derek
 
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Linagirl

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Thank you Derek. I am seeing a specialist this evening re possible Hughes Syndrome/sticky blood. I am hoping I don't need lifelong warfarin but we shall see x
 
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lindisfel

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Hi Lina,
There are other so called novel anticoagulants that do not need monitoring.
Problem is with warfarin it has to be repeatedly monitored by either going to hospital or going to gp practice to have I.N.R. checked. (inr indicates how long ones blood takes to clot. eg 2 is twice normal...normal for those in good health is 1. ) Difficulty is vit k alters inr and we diabetics need a lot of vit k veg.
regards
Derek



Thank you Derek. I am seeing a specialist this evening re possible Hughes Syndrome/sticky blood. I am hoping I don't need lifelong warfarin but we shall see x
 
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