View on low carbing.(part two)

[Soundgen]

you can try a little experiment: Saliva contains amylase, which breaks down Cooked starch to maltose.
keep a bit of water biscuit in your mouth, tucked inside your cheek. After a few hours, you will taste the sweet maltose. Try again with unprocessed grains and the change won't happen.
the amylase in the small intestine isn't very different from that in the mouth.So digestion of uncooked starch doesn't take place there either.

Very true , BUT chew up the whole grain and keep this in your mouth and you will find that maltose will be released try swallowing some sweetcorn , what happens it goes through you totally undigested , but chew it and you can get the nutrients out .

There were some very interesting studies on rats in New Scientis a while ago which showed that animals fed highly processed foods got fat easily , whereas those on very unprocessed foods didn't , this even equated to whether the food was whole for example whole carrots or grated carrots and the ones fed just chopped up ones were intermediate .

A further take on this can be seen at which may interest low carbesrshttp://fitforreallife.com/2009/09/2...ts-prove-it-you-need-to-do-it-healthy-living/

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I have tried to find out, when in history humans started to eat grains and at what point, they found out you have to cook them. If anyone knows, please show me the references.

Heres a couple of links posted today on another forum that suggest bread was first used in the neolithic era Hanna. I found them QI

The History of Bread

Bread - The First Fast Food

 

[phoenix]

have tried to find out, when in history humans started to eat grains and at what point, they found out you have to cook them. If anyone knows, please show me the references

Hana

quite possible at least 20000 BP so in the paleolithic era :http://anthropology.si.edu/archaeobio/Ohalo II Nature.pdf

perhaps you should read Richard Wranghams book Catch the Fire, How cooking made us Human. He believes cooking started very early and was the reason for our evolutionary success.
Heres the my take on the scenario.
One day, somewhere between 2.3 and 1.8 million years ago a wandering homo habilis found a still smouldering forest fire. S/He was hungry but there was very little left to scavange, even the leaves, grasses and berries were gone. She scrabbled around, and found a burnt tuber,
Wow the first baked potato!
Not only was it delicious but it gave far more energy than the raw food. A good reason for repeating the experiment..
A bit (maybe a lot later)they learnt to create and or preserve fire. (sparks caused during tool making is one possibility). Not only cooking but keeping warm could be done at will. It was also possible to live on the ground more safely, as fire would help ward off predators.
Of course its a newish theory and the evidence for anything from that era is sparse but it is certainly an interesting and read (there is an earlier paper, cooking as a biological trait that you can find, I can't link to it)
Apart from teeth the use of tools for pounding, grinding was probably very early even chimpanzees and great apes use tools for pounding food, (and it just occured to me that even thrushes use tools for food preparation)

 

[hanadr]

I see!
shades of "once upon an ice age"
Hana

 

[Doczoc]

You really know how to wind people up dont you? Your above statement as well as being medically incorrect is just laughable. I am on insulin and sinse diagnosis I have lost over 4 stone in weight, not because of the insulin but despite it. I have no choice in the matter of whether I take insulin or not so its not up to me at all.

Well it's clearly wound you up but that wasn't the intention.

So my statement is both medically incorrect and laughable? Are you seriously suggesting that carb intake has no bearing on the amount of medication needed? That's diabetes 101 Sid! You may well not have a choice in taking medication, but you have a choice in the amount you have to take.

Who has posted that they can have it all and when did they post it, I can't seem to recall such a post? Or is this just another dig at those unlucky enough to have to take medication?

Blimey Sid you don't have too look far! And no, I'm not going to quote individuals because I am not interested in singling people out in that way.

I'm sorry if you see my fairly logical views on diabetes control as a 'dig'. I would never point the finger at others in that way. I'll end up on medication myself one day, so that would be a pretty stupid thing to do! But the reality is that medication can be lessened with a good diet that doesn't spike BG, whatever that diet may be. I'll be doing my damnedest to keep future meds to a minimun. Seems like the common sense thing.

Maybe you should take some of your own advice above and get out more? You are clearly seeing more in my posts than is there.

 

[Doczoc]

Hana.
I thought that when you cooked meat it loses a lot of it's vitamins and nutrients, that's why we supplement it with lots of veggies and some fruit ? Is that not the case ?

I don't fancy eating raw/nearly raw meat as part of my diet. :?

Can't beat a bit of raw fillet steak Ken!

 

[Doczoc]

I feel I need to clarify my point about carb control and medication. I am not saying that they are mutually exclusive, merely that the former has a bearing on the latter! Sorry for any confusion. I did expand on this in my reply to Sue earlier!

Thanks

 

[cugila]

Apparently Doc, it's supposed to be good for 'black eyes'........so I'm told ? :wink:

I have tried Steak Tartare. Have to admit it was nice, that was in France though. I think they know a bit about the culinary arts ? 8)

Ken.

 

[Celtic.Piskie]

Bambi.
Veal / Venison Carpaccio, preferably with chilli oil. Absolutely gorgeous.

Human's make insulin as and when needed. I take insulin as and when needed. Unless there is insulin resistance, why all the drive to take less?
I don't agree that lower medication is always better.
Lower Hba1c's and a better state of mind is better.

 

[Doczoc]

Apparently Doc, it's supposed to be good for 'black eyes'........so I'm told ? :wink:

I have tried Steak Tartare. Have to admit it was nice, that was in France though. I think they know a bit about the culinary arts ? 8)

Ken.

I like the old adage, "French cuisine demonstrates the genius of the chef, Italian cooking demonstrates the genius of God!"

 

[Doczoc]

I don't agree that lower medication is always better.

I'm afraid here we will have to respectively agree to disagree!

Lower Hba1c's and a better state of mind is better.

Completely agree here, although HbA1Cs are only half the story...

 

[Celtic.Piskie]

Ask 20 different specialists, you'll get 21 different opinions on the 'best'..... anything.

Although i much prefer Spanish to Italian. The La Tasca chain aren't bad, child friendly in a good way, fab food and good staff.

To be honest, i'd much prefer to see meditation / calming classes on the NHS. Improves everything, and so many people are stressed these days.

 

[Edwardia]

It's pretty much impossible to be vitamin deficient whilst eating meat. Meat contains more vitamins than anything. This includes citrus fruits. the reason that sailorss developed scurvey was not just that they had no fruit and vegetables, but that they ate mainly starchy "ships biscuits" with very little good meat.

Sorry,I took Canadian History classes when I lived in Toronto and traders who lived on rabbits died of malnutrition. Meat certainly cannot provide every vitamin the body needs.

 

[fergus]

why all the drive to take less?
I don't agree that lower medication is always better

Without wishing to start any more arguments, this is a curious point of view.
For many decades it has been well established that excess insulin is implicated in a number of adverse medical conditions. It is a common denominator in all sorts of illnesses, we could group them under the heading 'metabolic syndrome', and they include diabetes, hypertension, obesity, CHD, the list goes on.
In my opinion, I think hyperinsulinism will come to be seen as one of the greatest dangers to our health.
How can it be that lower medication isn't better? Surely medication is a tool we use to bridge the gap between what the body can sustain by itself and the demands our lifestyle choices place upon it? On that basis, the lower the level of medication needed to maintain our health the fewer stresses we place on our bodies and the better our prospects of long term good health. QED.

All the best,

fergus

 

[Celtic.Piskie]

I should have clarified. I only meant insulin.
I can see that less metformin and other drugs etc can be beneficial, but i'm replacing what my body would do anyway.
If i ate x amount of carbs, my body would release x amount of insulin.
If i ate more, my body would release more.

I don't have hyperinsulinism due to diminished sensitivity, or any other reasons, because i have no insulin. If people have to start taking large quantities of insulin, then it might be something to think about.
I've tried low-carbing. I hated it. I was constantly hungry, did not enjoy the food. Yes my insulin requirements lessened, but frankly i'd rather take more and actually enjoy my food and feel full.
It's not a case of stressing my body into doing more, it's a case of replacing what i would have anyway.

 

[NickW]

Hi CP,

I think the problem is that taking in too much exogeneous insulin is just as bad for the body as a non-diabetic producing too much insulin. Yes, you're only providing what your body would otherwise produce; but if "what your body would otherwise produce" happens to be "too much insulin" then it's still a problem. If having too much insulin in the blood causes problems (which the evidence suggests it does), then it doesn't really matter if you produce it or inject it; it's still there and it's still causing damage.

As with many things it's a sliding scale, and while as you say it's people on huge quantities of insulin that will see the worst problems, that doesn't mean that those taking "just a bit too much" won't have issues as well; maybe not as pronounced, but still there.

So the thinking (which I agree with) is that type 1's should not only be looking to stabilise their bloods and achieve a good HbA1c, they should also be trying to do so with minimal amounts of insulin. Not necessarily "inject less insulin at all costs", and certainly not at the expense of good control of blood glucose; but taking steps to limit the amount you take - such as being aware of the amount and type of carbohydrate you eat and limiting it if necessary, exercising to improve insulin sensitivity, and other techniques if you so choose.

Of course this is a personal decision, and if you don't want to restrict your carbs that's fine; it's just worth being aware that eating whatever you choose and matching it with insulin might have some health implications even if you manage to get great HbA1c's. That way you can make an informed choice. And again it's a sliding scale, not all or nothing; you don't have to aim for the absolute lowest amount of insulin possible, but at the same time it might be beneficial for some people to make certain changes and cut back a bit.

 

[fergus]

I agree with you Nick.
It's not as simple as just matching insulin to the food you eat. On the sliding scale, the greater the amount of insulin in circulation, the greater the long term effects on cellular metabolism and endocrine function at the smallest scale, right up to the function of the biggest and most important organs including the liver, the kidneys and the heart. Elevated insulin is clearly implicated in damage on all those levels. A local GP who shares this opinion once confided in me that insulin ought to be classified as a registered poison, given its impact on so many aspects of our health if used to excess!
That's the case for non-diabetics. If you CP, like me, are an insulin dependant diabetic, you have to add to that the significant health risks associated with blood glucose levels which venture too high or too low because those variabilities tend to increase on larger doses too.

I'm not going to get into why you didn't have success on a low carb diet because it's an emotive subject at the best of times. Although feeling hungry all the time is a very rare complaint it's usually resolved just by eating more!

All the best,

fergus

 

[AliB]

As has been said, no insulin is absolutely right for our body, neither is any drug. Insulins are either derived from animals or are synthetically made - in either case they are not an exact match for our individual human insulin. Nothing can make up for that.

Drugs are by their nature toxic substances. They may be substances that the body can use, but they virtually always come with some kind of side-effect/s - often horrible, which is an indicator that there are parts the body can't deal with very well at all.

Ok, they might keep us ticking over in the absence of our body's ability to do it for itself, but they can never replace what is missing in its entirety. Don't get me wrong, I have been very grateful for the provision of insulin in the failing of my own body's ability to manufacture it and use it, but I am under no illusions that it is in any way better than what my body would have produced if it could.

The more drugs or synthetic substances we take, the more toxic the body becomes. Surely it is better to take less of anything toxic we possibly can than just keep taking everything we are given and to hell with the consequences?

( Moderators note:
No one on insulin should ever consider stopping it, especially anyone who is type 1.This can have potentially fatal consequences to the person. This is this posters opinion and definitely not the opinion of this forum .

Sugarless Sue Senior Moderator. )

 

[jopar]

AliB

I'm sure not going to stop taking my insulin because you've declared it a toxin thats for sure..

Yep if one wants to over-load there body with carbs, then they asking for trouble they become fat ill of health etc but that could be said with over-loading the body with any type of food...

But to start suggesting that insulin and carbs in any amounts are toxin's that poison the body, that is pure scare mongering at it's lowest level...

There may well be people out there who are hyperinsulinism, but not every individual who dares eat a carb with have this nor will they have diabetes...

If one isn't over-weight, has good control over there diabetes with or with out medication then there is very little need for them to change there diet or lifestyle further because some-one says so...

There does seem to be too many buts involved in the low carb argument

When I say I don't need to lose weight 5ft 4' and 81/2 stone many would envy me...

BUT low carbing well control your BG hmmm, but there's nothing wrong woth my blood glucose levels there are pretty well controlled

The next BUT, Low carbing will reduce your need for insulin hmmm, I only use 17-20 units of insulin total in a day, which for what I read is a lot lower than most insulin low carbers even lower than what some use for background insulin alone..

The next But

but you've got to low carb, because there is a very small chance that I just might, which is a very doubtfull might have hyperinsulinism?
and the BUt's go on....

This strongly suggests to me that yes are are flaws in the low carb argument, and a determination from a few followers of this regime to push, scare, brainwash call it what you like others into following what they do!

This then leads me to ponder, if some-one comes so determined to change others lifestyles why are they doing it... IMHO I truely ponder, that they find there regime difficult to maintain and stick to, so to take all temptation away, they want has many others to follow a bit like a lot of anit-smokers who aren't moaning and psuhing others for helath benefits, it's that when with smokers they are desparate to have a fag.... Stop every-one smoking problem solved, can't have one because there is anything there to tempt you!!!

 

[sugarless sue]

Think the word is 'reduce' carbs , Jopar. The rest is just basic biology.