Your gut bacteria determines spike in blood sugar levels

[pleinster]

Eeeek - please don't think I was trying to educate you @pleinster - I love reading your thoughtful, intelligent - and sarcastic - posts and its obvious you are well educated about your health. I was merely using your situation as an example xxx.
Sorry to derail the post - just wanted to make that clear

I'm also a bit jaggy at times! Sorry.

 

[ickihun]

I just want to add into the mix that premature babies are starting on in life on antibiotics. I was one and at 3 months needed them again for pneuumonia and again and again all my childhood.
I had symptoms of diabetes type2 at 6/7yr old. Not diagnosed til I was 31/32yrs old and 8-10stones overweight. Now 44yrs old I can still pamper myself with sugary carbs when my immune system is low (stress).
I can now say my gut told me to. lol
Just wanted to add it's common practice for diabetic mums to be induced 2 weeks early of guessed due day so this factor adds to probability of child becoming diabetic under hereditary causes?

 

[Lamont D]

Yup - we really do need to be asking these questions...and others - such as why would we expect drug companies to undermine their vast profits margins by including honesty in the mix? I wonder what changes might surface if our government could afford to run a national drug production service or NDS (aside from the obvious bad management at most levels)? More actual development of cures? A programme of weaning us off the surplus to requirement, needlessly addictive and ineffective meds? Improved general health in the population? Less mental health issues? Or...just a drug to make us all vote Conservative? My comment is more than a little tongue in cheek...and many drugs are of course life-saving and incredible....but still....there's lotsa brass in the business...and a hell of lot in the anti-biotic "industry" in particular. God knows what the side-effects truly are, but I'll wager there are more then written on little bits of paper stuffed into the packets. As for how many course of antibiotics I have been on (all rhetoric aside) I have lost count if I ever was counting...but a lot!

I'm going to add a twist to this debate about the good and bad, since diagnosis, I have had a couple of my meds changed to a cheaper brand. Before this my metformin was changed to a cheaper brand three times, the wife has had her meds (pain killers) changed a few times to cheaper brands and has been ill because of it!
This has come from government intervention because of the cuts, nothing else!
Also how many times do pharmacists give you your full prescription even though you have either ticked the boxes or ordered them? The father in law hordes his drugs that boost keep giving him even the ones he's not using no more and the surgery has told them.

Good Gut bacteria are necessary and good for you, and I got tested positive for Helicobacter pylori, years ago and did the antibiotics treatment. No problems. I've lost count of how much of the antibiotics I've had.
In my twenties, I had a quince, (severe tonsilitis) which was treated by full strength penicillin for nearly six months, ruined my great singing voice!!!!!!!!!!

If you talk to someone who is allergic to penicillin, one of my kids is, you know how good they can be.

 

[ickihun]

I do know the scientists in the uk are exploring the alternatives to antibiotics due to their ineffectiveness to some illnesses. Some bugs are cleverer than the antibiotics! Once again the human body building up a resilience to a certain treatment.

 

[asparagusp]

That's why Diabetics are advised to eat unsweetened, low fat, organic, yoghurt

 

[Clivethedrive]

That's why Diabetics are advised to eat unsweetened, low fat, organic, yoghurt

Highfat low sugar is better

 

[LittleGreyCat]

My take on the program was slightly different.

What I think I saw was:

All people were on the same very specific diet for a set period, with regular blood glucose and gut bacteria testing.
They found that different people "spiked" their glucose levels with different foods.
They found a correlation between the concentrations of different types of bacteria and the number of items in the diet that spiked glucose levels (how "healthy" the diet was).

They then (if I followed this correctly) modified the diets to exclude the "spiking" foods, and carried on testing gut bacteria.
The ones who were previously on a "spiking" diet then not only felt better, but also saw their gut bacteria change to match the "non-spiking" participants.

One interpretation of this is that the gut bacteria may not GOVERN your reaction to food, but may instead be an INDICATOR of how good your diet is. From the study it is very difficult to tell if the bacteria cause the reaction or just reflect the different conditions in the gut.

What I mainly took away from all this was that non-diabetics were being advised to "eat to their meter" - that blood glucose testing (instead of a standard diet) was the way to develop a diet which was healthy for your particular body. Something of a "no sh*t Sherlock" moment for most of the regular readers here.

One big positive is if this research strongly suggests that blood glucose monitoring should be a major factor in the maintenance of dietary health then cheapskating T2s over test strips seems even less justified.

Could it suddenly become fashionable to finger prick in all the trendiest restaurants?

It also suggests the possibility that a stool sample might be included in regular diabetic screening to check how healthy your gut bacteria balance is. Or in fact, in all health screening. #postyourcraptoIsrael ;-)

 

[MarkLondon]

The idea that probiotic yogurt may help your gut is an interesting one. In January last year I was diagnosed with a very rare blood cancer called a Myeloproliferative Neoplasm. It causes an overproduction of blood cells and in my case, blood clots. I was on a NG feed for three weeks and after discharge from hospital given a high protein/high carb drink (Fortisip). They may be great at building up energy but they also contain plenty of sugar. Even though the are supposedly in tune with your body, containing lots of good bacteria, vitamins and minerals they didn't stop my glucose levels being raised.

As a result, in may last year I was diagnosed as being pre-diabetic with a HB1AC score of 43. I've managed to lower that to 33 at the last test but I'd be wary of drinking any pro-biotic yogurts of this kind.

 

[pleinster]

My take on the program was slightly different.

What I think I saw was:

All people were on the same very specific diet for a set period, with regular blood glucose and gut bacteria testing.
They found that different people "spiked" their glucose levels with different foods.
They found a correlation between the concentrations of different types of bacteria and the number of items in the diet that spiked glucose levels (how "healthy" the diet was).

They then (if I followed this correctly) modified the diets to exclude the "spiking" foods, and carried on testing gut bacteria.
The ones who were previously on a "spiking" diet then not only felt better, but also saw their gut bacteria change to match the "non-spiking" participants.

One interpretation of this is that the gut bacteria may not GOVERN your reaction to food, but may instead be an INDICATOR of how good your diet is. From the study it is very difficult to tell if the bacteria cause the reaction or just reflect the different conditions in the gut.

What I mainly took away from all this was that non-diabetics were being advised to "eat to their meter" - that blood glucose testing (instead of a standard diet) was the way to develop a diet which was healthy for your particular body. Something of a "no sh*t Sherlock" moment for most of the regular readers here.

One big positive is if this research strongly suggests that blood glucose monitoring should be a major factor in the maintenance of dietary health then cheapskating T2s over test strips seems even less justified.

Could it suddenly become fashionable to finger prick in all the trendiest restaurants?

It also suggests the possibility that a stool sample might be included in regular diabetic screening to check how healthy your gut bacteria balance is. Or in fact, in all health screening. #postyourcraptoIsrael ;-)

Makes total sense to me.

 

[Bertiedog]

Agreed. We need some for some things, and I am grateful for them. I don't like being dependent on anything really, but needs must. I also don't like being dependent on a substance if we don't need to be. I think...culturally...we have landed ourselves with problems while also finding some wonderful treatments.

I just wanted to join in here. I am new to the Forum and extremely sensitive to where my bs is. For the past week I have been cutting back even more on my carbs and also the amount of food I am eating and have lost 4 lbs and on several days my bs readings are lower but if I go back to eating a little bit more at my evening meal at 6 pm plus say some yoghurt and flaxseeds, my bs was still 6.3, 4 hours after eating which was disappointing.

I am steroid dependent and have been for around 13 years because of mild adrenal insufficiency and I have noticed how over the past couple of years my bs have been creeping up from about 11 am onwards. My fasting bs is still ok and in fact I think I have a lot of trouble because my brain and muscles seemed to like bs around the 6 mark. Often my fasting bs could be 4.5 and this would trigger migraine. Because I also have other issues which I think might be connected to bs levels I have decided to be really serious about my eating even though I have been lowish carb for 12 years or so. I think the steroid is the problem but I cannot do without it or I would be dead!

Before treatment with the steroid plus thyroid meds I couldn't keep my bs up for longer than an hour at a time and it was horrendous. The stress it put on my body was terrible and I ended up with ME/CFS so its all been a big mess. I should say though that I was the original carbohydrate junkie having been brought up that way in the 50s when every meal contained lots of carbs. It took nearly 50 years to get over this and I am sure I made my health a lot worse than it would have been but I was definitely addicted to sugar and carbs! I was only really overweight though when the hypothyroidism was developing when I was in my late 40s together with the adrenal insufficiency, once I was put on the 5 mg Pred plus desiccated thyroid I soon lost nearly 2 stones and was back to 9 stone 7 lb.

Finally I have to say that this past week my energy is much better for less food and less carbs and I am walking further and more easily but still have to rest for many periods throughout the day but it is definitely encouraging.

Thanks for all the great, informative posts, I love to read of the experiences of others because we can learn so much.

 

[Bertiedog]

Forgot to add that having recently done a Comprehensive GI Effects Stool test through Genova and seeing I had very low diversity and some good bacteria missing I have recently starting making my own Kefir and have been drinking quite a lot of this daily plus adding more fibre into my diet like psyllium and ground flax seed added to the Kefir plus a bit of natural yoghurt.

My gut is still an issue and I think I have some small intestinal bowel overgrowth going on which might have been due to having had previously a very nasty bout of Campylabactor poisoning. Its a fascinating subject which I fully intend to follow.

 

[pleinster]

I just wanted to join in here. I am new to the Forum and extremely sensitive to where my bs is. For the past week I have been cutting back even more on my carbs and also the amount of food I am eating and have lost 4 lbs and on several days my bs readings are lower but if I go back to eating a little bit more at my evening meal at 6 pm plus say some yoghurt and flaxseeds, my bs was still 6.3, 4 hours after eating which was disappointing.

I am steroid dependent and have been for around 13 years because of mild adrenal insufficiency and I have noticed how over the past couple of years my bs have been creeping up from about 11 am onwards. My fasting bs is still ok and in fact I think I have a lot of trouble because my brain and muscles seemed to like bs around the 6 mark. Often my fasting bs could be 4.5 and this would trigger migraine. Because I also have other issues which I think might be connected to bs levels I have decided to be really serious about my eating even though I have been lowish carb for 12 years or so. I think the steroid is the problem but I cannot do without it or I would be dead!

Before treatment with the steroid plus thyroid meds I couldn't keep my bs up for longer than an hour at a time and it was horrendous. The stress it put on my body was terrible and I ended up with ME/CFS so its all been a big mess. I should say though that I was the original carbohydrate junkie having been brought up that way in the 50s when every meal contained lots of carbs. It took nearly 50 years to get over this and I am sure I made my health a lot worse than it would have been but I was definitely addicted to sugar and carbs! I was only really overweight though when the hypothyroidism was developing when I was in my late 40s together with the adrenal insufficiency, once I was put on the 5 mg Pred plus desiccated thyroid I soon lost nearly 2 stones and was back to 9 stone 7 lb.

Finally I have to say that this past week my energy is much better for less food and less carbs and I am walking further and more easily but still have to rest for many periods throughout the day but it is definitely encouraging.

Thanks for all the great, informative posts, I love to read of the experiences of others because we can learn so much.

Hi Bertie. I am also, currently, on 5mg of the steroid prenisolone. I know that this is why I have diabetes, and have been told as much by renal specialists (having been warned in advance of my transplant). I started on 20mg and a year later, just the 5mg. My BS levels have dropped due to low carb diet but I still get a spike for a few hours after taking the drug and having spoken to doctors...will try cutting it to 2.5mg and then..maybe altogether. it's a big risk though, as the last thing I want is rejection of my kidney! While it has been the cause (or at very least the trigger) for Type 2, I would not have been without it as it undoubtedly played a big part in preventing early rejection. Meds..drugs..none of us want to take them...and sometimes, maybe, we take too many too easily..but without them...I don't even want to think! And I agree completely that learning from the experiences of others is a real benefit of this site.

 

[Streety]

This is a very interesting thread.

I stumbled across gut bacteria from reading up on inflammation. My thought was - get inflammation down and this should help my internal system and my diabetes.

So, I stumbled upon gut bacteria and it's role in reducing inflammation.

Before seeing this thread on the Beeb program I had already started a regime of introducing pro-biotics, kim-chee, sauerkraut and more yoghurt into my diet. (Kim-chee is a spicy, delicious Korean condiment made from cabbage). As these things can't hurt and might help, I see no harm in doing this. Today, after a regular monitoring review with my Endocrinologist, he advised that the level indicating inflammation was down slightly. Just anecdotal but I thought others might find interesting.

 

[Lizzie2]

How..do people think this bacteria issue or any underlying or dormant condition relates to someone like me, who gets diabetes after a lengthy period on a particular steroid ? My renal doctors all warned me in advance of my transplant that diabetes may develop after starting treatment with said drug (ie. it..is the cause...despite other less specialised doctors saying it must have been waiting to be triggered!). I would emphasize a relatively high percentage of transplant recipients go on to develop onset diabetes and then Type 2 while on a long term (probably life long) course of Prednisolone. Any comments?

My T2 is thought to have been caused by a three month course of prednisolone I was taking for inflammatory arthritis, so 'they' are hoping it will go away now I've stopped the steroids. I also have high blood pressure, IBS, Graves Disease and was taking part in a pre diabetes study at the time. Unfortunately although I was warned to be very careful about the DMARD I was also given for the arthritis - nothing at all was mentioned about the possibility of diabetes.

I've been following a LCHF diet, checking my bloods before and two hours after every meal, I don't snack in between and I record everything I eat so I know the foods that spike my blood and I'm avoiding them altogether. I've dropped from 78.6kg to 64.9kg since the end of December, still got a bit to go.

I wasn't surprised that the doctor on the programme had a list of foods that were OK and others that weren't and that so many of the foods that spiked her blood were on her 'healthy' food list although I was surprised at some of the things she could eat and the things that the person being tested with her could eat and the fact it wasn't as simple as 'carbs spike your blood' because some carbs did and others didn't and it wasn't the same for both women.

I can't eat grain carbs, not even oatcakes, without my blood spiking and my favourite jacket potatoes are the biggest culprit for me. On the other hand I had a couple of small helpings of trifle over the New Year and a small piece of pavlova a week later and they had no effect. In spite of being ok after both foods, they aren't foods I would normally eat, I haven't tried ice cream either, I'm just avoiding all the so called 'bad foods' like the plague. I no longer eat cake, biscuits, sweets or fizzy drinks of any sort. It just isn't worth it for me. Funny thing is - I'm never hungry and don't feel the need to snack.

 

[Lamont D]

My T2 is thought to have been caused by a three month course of prednisolone I was taking for inflammatory arthritis, so 'they' are hoping it will go away now I've stopped the steroids. I also have high blood pressure, IBS, Graves Disease and was taking part in a pre diabetes study at the time. Unfortunately although I was warned to be very careful about the DMARD I was also given for the arthritis - nothing at all was mentioned about the possibility of diabetes.

I've been following a LCHF diet, checking my bloods before and two hours after every meal, I don't snack in between and I record everything I eat so I know the foods that spike my blood and I'm avoiding them altogether. I've dropped from 78.6kg to 64.9kg since the end of December, still got a bit to go.

I wasn't surprised that the doctor on the programme had a list of foods that were OK and others that weren't and that so many of the foods that spiked her blood were on her 'healthy' food list although I was surprised at some of the things she could eat and the things that the person being tested with her could eat and the fact it wasn't as simple as 'carbs spike your blood' because some carbs did and others didn't and it wasn't the same for both women.

I can't eat grain carbs, not even oatcakes, without my blood spiking and my favourite jacket potatoes are the biggest culprit for me. On the other hand I had a couple of small helpings of trifle over the New Year and a small piece of pavlova a week later and they had no effect. In spite of being ok after both foods, they aren't foods I would normally eat, I haven't tried ice cream either, I'm just avoiding all the so called 'bad foods' like the plague. I no longer eat cake, biscuits, sweets or fizzy drinks of any sort. It just isn't worth it for me. Funny thing is - I'm never hungry and don't feel the need to snack.

Hi Lillie,

Yes I know where you are coming from, I just can't eat quite a lot of food because it causes me to be ill, in other words they spike me.
It is not surprising to me how you are never hungry or need to snack, your craving for the baddies has gone, carbs want more carbs!
Well done on getting into fat burning from muscle fat rather than carbs, and your weight loss is great!
There is still reasons why doctors want you to eat carbs but it is based on a loot of unproven research. I have been very low carb for a couple of years now, and my health has improved dramatically.
Don't forget even if you have been given the label of being T2, everybody's blood glucose condition is unique to them.
What works for one doesn't work for another.
The only thing that really does every one good is really reducing your carbs.
That does work!

 

[kallylondon]

While doing some research I read up on this , its actually very fascinating. It seems a health gut bacteria plays a major role in many other diseases as well , such as food allergies.

 

[Amanda Gee]

I'm going to add a twist to this debate about the good and bad, since diagnosis, I have had a couple of my meds changed to a cheaper brand. Before this my metformin was changed to a cheaper brand three times, the wife has had her meds (pain killers) changed a few times to cheaper brands and has been ill because of it!
This has come from government intervention because of the cuts, nothing else!
Also how many times do pharmacists give you your full prescription even though you have either ticked the boxes or ordered them? The father in law hordes his drugs that boost keep giving him even the ones he's not using no more and the surgery has told them.

Good Gut bacteria are necessary and good for you, and I got tested positive for Helicobacter pylori, years ago and did the antibiotics treatment. No problems. I've lost count of how much of the antibiotics I've had.
In my twenties, I had a quince, (severe tonsilitis) which was treated by full strength penicillin for nearly six months, ruined my great singing voice!!!!!!!!!!

If you talk to someone who is allergic to penicillin, one of my kids is, you know how good they can be.

Hi,

Unless the system has changed recently, the way the drug pricing works, is the home office get three prices for every prescribed medication ( from 2 mfctrs and a distributer) and they take the average price. This is the amount they will pay to the chemist who dispenses the medication. (As per the British national formulary). If the chemist can source and supply cheaper, he makes more profit. It may be that the fault is not with your doc, but with your pharmacist, You could ask him for better meds. And any that you think are not up to the job can and should be reportted via the yellow card system.

I am currently half way through a 20 day regime of re populating my gut bacteria. I am using VSL 3 sachets which i bought for myself although they aRe available on prescription. So far so good. Price is about £1.80 per sachet.


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