Dawn Phenomenon - good or bad?

[Dave from Weeton]

Having see recent posts about waking Blood Sugar levels affected by Dawn Phenomenon, especially concerns from some about high readings, I have posted my waking readings since I started testing following diagnosis on 22 Jan this year:

WC 4/4 - 5.6, 6.0, 5.5, 6.3, 6.7, 5.9, 5.8
WC 28/3 - 6.5, 6.2, 6.0, 6.0, 6.8, 6.4, 5.6
WC 21/3 - 6.4, 6.1, 5.7, 5.7, 6.6, 5.7, 6.5
WC 14/3 - 7.1, 5.6, 6.2, 6.8, 6.3, 6.8, 6.5
WC 7/3 - 5.6, 5.5, 6.1, 7.1, 6.6, 6.1, 6.3
WC 29/2 - 7.2, 6.1, 5.7, 6.6, 6.2, 5.8, 6.5
WC 22/2 - 6.7, 5.7, 7.5, 7.5, 6.0, 5.6, 6.2
WC 15/2 - 6.4, 6.4, 7.3, 5.7, 6.3, 6.6, 5.9
WC 8/2 - 6.9, 5.4, 6,7, 7.7, 6.1, 6.0, 6.4

The week previous and my first ever reading was 5.5 a figure only eve seen twice after!

I can find no pattern in these figures apart from the readings greater than 7 are less frequent. My readings do not seem to be impacted on whether I have a high or low post evening meal figure the night before nor if I have had a late evening snack. Neither is there any link to the time I get up.

The way I see these figures, following discussions on this thread after I started it and consideration of the site guide on this matter, is that waking Blood Sugar levels are merely snap shots of a very complicated process so I am not that bothered if I get the occasional +7.

 

[Prem51]

@Dave from Weeton I agree. My waking bs levels over the last week have been in the mid-5s, but some days, including today, are over 6. If I test again 2 hours after having a mug of coffee with cream, they are back down to the mid 5s. So I am not going to worry about readings as long as they are less than 7. If that includes a liver dump I don't think that is a problem.

 

[Oldvatr]

When i was running with high daytime bgl's, then I did not see DP. My morning levels were usually around 7 except when I made bad meal choice the previous night.

Now my average daily bgl is running at around 6.5 / 7mmol/L I am observing DP. My body seems to want to get back to the 7 mmol/L level regardless of my bedtime reading.

I hope that as I get my daily average lower, then maybe the DP will also adjust in sympathy. Maybe DP is just the body being used to an average value, and is trying to restore itself back to that value, Bit like the autothrottle on my car.

BTW my weekly average for FBGL is currently running at 6.6mmol/L

 

[david1968]

Having see recent posts about waking Blood Sugar levels affected by Dawn Phenomenon, especially concerns from some about high readings, I have posted my waking readings since I started testing following diagnosis on 22 Jan this year:

WC 4/4 - 5.6, 6.0, 5.5, 6.3, 6.7, 5.9, 5.8
WC 28/3 - 6.5, 6.2, 6.0, 6.0, 6.8, 6.4, 5.6
WC 21/3 - 6.4, 6.1, 5.7, 5.7, 6.6, 5.7, 6.5
WC 14/3 - 7.1, 5.6, 6.2, 6.8, 6.3, 6.8, 6.5
WC 7/3 - 5.6, 5.5, 6.1, 7.1, 6.6, 6.1, 6.3
WC 29/2 - 7.2, 6.1, 5.7, 6.6, 6.2, 5.8, 6.5
WC 22/2 - 6.7, 5.7, 7.5, 7.5, 6.0, 5.6, 6.2
WC 15/2 - 6.4, 6.4, 7.3, 5.7, 6.3, 6.6, 5.9
WC 8/2 - 6.9, 5.4, 6,7, 7.7, 6.1, 6.0, 6.4

The week previous and my first ever reading was 5.5 a figure only eve seen twice after!

I can find no pattern in these figures apart from the readings greater than 7 are less frequent. My readings do not seem to be impacted on whether I have a high or low post evening meal figure the night before nor if I have had a late evening snack. Neither is there any link to the time I get up.

The way I see these figures, following discussions on this thread after I started it and consideration of the site guide on this matter, is that waking Blood Sugar levels are merely snap shots of a very complicated process so I am not that bothered if I get the occasional +7.

Are you able to post your bedtime readings for the same period please? I appreciate that you've said that they don't seem to impact the morning readings, but think that it would be really helpful if you could.

 

[Kyi]

I am thinking the dawn phenomenon is a myth and is more to do with what we are eating. Or rather the liver dump is the myth. For example liquids take 20-30 mins for the digestive process to work and increase blood sugars, fruit/veg/grains carbohydrates take 20mins-3hrs-8hrs roughly depending on what they are, meat proteins/fats can take any where from 8 - 48 hrs. Given the body is "resting" between night feed and morning feed, it make sense its not processing the liquid and carbohydrates but concentrating on the proteins and fats. The body likes to process the energy from the quickest to the slowest sources. So liquids stop the solids digesting and proteins are the last to b digested. This is why fasting works. There is nothing for the digestion to process except the slowest foods. Given the dawn phenomenon kicks in about 10hrs after the last meal of the night, this falls in line with the 8hrs digestion process it takes for meat to digest hence the surge in blood sugars. At least thats what I think I have no other evidence to say Im right or wrong.

 

[Dave from Weeton]

Are you able to post your bedtime readings for the same period please? I appreciate that you've said that they don't seem to impact the morning readings, but think that it would be really helpful if you could.

Hi David. I have never recorded bed time readings. Maybe you should post your figures in a new thread to see what others think?

Currently I usually do waking and just before & two hours after my evening meal. My breakfast and lunch are always LCHF and my choices spike less than 1 so I stopped testing these a month ago. I only test beyond this if I am eat something new or it has a level of carbs likely to spike. This is because my primary reason to test is to ensure that my LCHF meal choices/ portion size actually works for me so that no meal increases my blood sugars by more than two and always less than 8. For example, I stopped eating instant porridge for breakfast very early on as it increased by more than 2 and it lasted until lunch - + 5 hours!

Interestingly I have observed a similar effect to Dawn Phenomenon occasionally before my evening meal though not as often as my waking figures. When this happens I don't eat any carbs or skip the meal. My pre-meal figures have significantly improved from regular lows of 5.5 when I first started testing to 5.0 and below. This usually means that on a couple of days a week my waking reading is the highest of the day!

I am also limiting my meals, including 'snacks' to no more than 3 times a day as this has been shown to improve insulin resistance - Dr Jason Fung etc.

 

[Oldvatr]

I am thinking the dawn phenomenon is a myth and is more to do with what we are eating. Or rather the liver dump is the myth. For example liquids take 20-30 mins for the digestive process to work and increase blood sugars, fruit/veg/grains carbohydrates take 20mins-3hrs-8hrs roughly depending on what they are, meat proteins/fats can take any where from 8 - 48 hrs. Given the body is "resting" between night feed and morning feed, it make sense its not processing the liquid and carbohydrates but concentrating on the proteins and fats. The body likes to process the energy from the quickest to the slowest sources. So liquids stop the solids digesting and proteins are the last to b digested. This is why fasting works. There is nothing for the digestion to process except the slowest foods. Given the dawn phenomenon kicks in about 10hrs after the last meal of the night, this falls in line with the 8hrs digestion process it takes for meat to digest hence the surge in blood sugars. At least thats what I think I have no other evidence to say Im right or wrong.

I think you are close with this theory, The metabolism of protein takes place during fasting, and its primary purpose is to make amino acids, and to repair damaged cells in the body. This step seems to occur while the body is resting at night, so although i cannot find anything to confirm the timing as being 8 hours, it does seem to be a process that starts around 3 in the morning.
Normally, in a carboholic regime, the conversion of protein to glucogen (gluconeogenesis) is inhibited while the body has sufficiently high bgl levels, but is triggered by low glucose content in the blood, and also when the metabolism is in ketogenic mode (fat burning). It occurs during periods of starvation,fasting, low carb dieting or strenuous exercise. It is associated with ketosis in that it steps in as a backup when fat burning is insufficient.
So it needs sustained low glocose levels, ketosis active but insufficient, and proteins being present. It is the last ditch effort to supply energy to the brain and respiratory system. I cannot find any research that links this process to DP, but it is possible.
In my case yesterday my bgls were running low (4,7 to 5.2mmol/L) and I had an LC meal ( but high in protein) in the evening. My 2hr PP was 6.1, and my 4hr PP was 5.7. This morning my fasting level was 8.4 I have seen this pattern before, but it did not seem to occur when my HbA1c was elevated. So it is clear that my body is fighting to maintain a certain plateau, and either my liver is dumping stored glucogen or making new stuff. Jury is out on that.

 

[Magisham]

Help! What are we doing wrong? My partner's blood sugar was high after Christmas so, a couple of months ago, we did the 5:2 diet combined with low carbohydrates. We cut out potatoes and other root veg, bread and anything else made from flour, pasta and rice. In the beginning it worked well. He lost some weight and his bloods were around 6 ...... sometimes lower, sometimes a little higher. For the last week though they have been around the 10 mark, and 11 one day. We are not doing the 5:2 any more, but have cut back calories, mainly because we are still not having carbohydrates. We tend to have eggs for breakfast, though have porridge made with water some days. Dinner is meat/fish with veg or salad. Snacks are small pieces of cheese, a tin of sardines, olives, nuts, some strawberries or raspberries. For 2 days now we have had filled chicken with salad in the evening with a few nuts and strawberries in the evening, at about 10pm. We sleep late as my partner is a bad sleeper, so he does his blood at about 11am when he gets up. It's been over 10 for the last 2 days. I don't know what we are doing wrong. Is he leaving it too late to do his blood, should he eat more before bed.......what??? Any ideas?

 

[Oldvatr]

Help! What are we doing wrong? My partner's blood sugar was high after Christmas so, a couple of months ago, we did the 5:2 diet combined with low carbohydrates. We cut out potatoes and other root veg, bread and anything else made from flour, pasta and rice. In the beginning it worked well. He lost some weight and his bloods were around 6 ...... sometimes lower, sometimes a little higher. For the last week though they have been around the 10 mark, and 11 one day. We are not doing the 5:2 any more, but have cut back calories, mainly because we are still not having carbohydrates. We tend to have eggs for breakfast, though have porridge made with water some days. Dinner is meat/fish with veg or salad. Snacks are small pieces of cheese, a tin of sardines, olives, nuts, some strawberries or raspberries. For 2 days now we have had filled chicken with salad in the evening with a few nuts and strawberries in the evening, at about 10pm. We sleep late as my partner is a bad sleeper, so he does his blood at about 11am when he gets up. It's been over 10 for the last 2 days. I don't know what we are doing wrong. Is he leaving it too late to do his blood, should he eat more before bed.......what??? Any ideas?

A late meal with low carb, but containing high protein foods, and also fat is asking for trouble. The protein will be metabolised into glucose just like carbs and the fat will delay the 'protein bump' till morning.

I suggest eating earlier in the night, and possibly reducing portion size of the protein foods. Try it and see if it makes any difference.

Also look back at your routine to see what else may have changed. Timing of some meds can affect readings too. A change in test strips can change meter results too.

 

[Dave from Weeton]

Help! What are we doing wrong? My partner's blood sugar was high after Christmas so, a couple of months ago, we did the 5:2 diet combined with low carbohydrates. We cut out potatoes and other root veg, bread and anything else made from flour, pasta and rice. In the beginning it worked well. He lost some weight and his bloods were around 6 ...... sometimes lower, sometimes a little higher. For the last week though they have been around the 10 mark, and 11 one day. We are not doing the 5:2 any more, but have cut back calories, mainly because we are still not having carbohydrates. We tend to have eggs for breakfast, though have porridge made with water some days. Dinner is meat/fish with veg or salad. Snacks are small pieces of cheese, a tin of sardines, olives, nuts, some strawberries or raspberries. For 2 days now we have had filled chicken with salad in the evening with a few nuts and strawberries in the evening, at about 10pm. We sleep late as my partner is a bad sleeper, so he does his blood at about 11am when he gets up. It's been over 10 for the last 2 days. I don't know what we are doing wrong. Is he leaving it too late to do his blood, should he eat more before bed.......what??? Any ideas?

Hi Magisham, you are doing a lot of things right! Ours is not simply a diet it is a different way of eating - fueling the body with fat rather than carbs. Have another look at daisy 1's post for newly diagnosed as this summarizes the basics and contains plenty of useful links?

After sight of this I would suggest you join the Low Carb Program if you have not done already via our site's home page. I completed it a week or so ago and it has given me a good grounding in eating LCHF and understanding all the places carbs are hidden. For example, I have stopped eating porridge for breakfast and switched to full fat Greek yogurt, a pure nut and spice toasted granola(ish) and a small amount of blueberries and/ or a couple of strawberries. Initially I used a small amount of 'off the shelf' nut granola but I found all brands contained a lot of sugar and other carbs. So I found a good recipe with the only carbs in the nuts. Instead of a high blood sugar spike that remained high till lunch and hungry by mid morning I get through to lunch with no hunger pangs. I hated porridge but years ago I did as I was told to control high blood pressure!
With regard to your meter readings I would focus on your pre and post meal readings to identify food and portion sizes that work for the both of you and not get too hung up about your waking figure as this will come down again. I try to ensure that no meal increases my blood glucose by more than 2 and no reading is more than 8. If high beforehand I cut out the meal or cut the carbs completely. Don't forget about the information and guides on our homepage - they are an excellent resource. I found the Blood Glucose Testing and related pages invaluable and posted my own threads when I was unsure. This was one of the reasons behind me posting this thread. Any concerns I would post your own thread or even consider re-post yours above in Newly Diagnosed as there is a lot of help and support available.

 

[Magisham]

Hi Magisham, you are doing a lot of things right! Ours is not simply a diet it is a different way of eating - fueling the body with fat rather than carbs. Have another look at daisy 1's post for newly diagnosed as this summarizes the basics and contains plenty of useful links?

After sight of this I would suggest you join the Low Carb Program if you have not done already via our site's home page. I completed it a week or so ago and it has given me a good grounding in eating LCHF and understanding all the places carbs are hidden. For example, I have stopped eating porridge for breakfast and switched to full fat Greek yogurt, a pure nut and spice toasted granola(ish) and a small amount of blueberries and/ or a couple of strawberries. Initially I used a small amount of 'off the shelf' nut granola but I found all brands contained a lot of sugar and other carbs. So I found a good recipe with the only carbs in the nuts. Instead of a high blood sugar spike that remained high till lunch and hungry by mid morning I get through to lunch with no hunger pangs. I hated porridge but years ago I did as I was told to control high blood pressure!
With regard to your meter readings I would focus on your pre and post meal readings to identify food and portion sizes that work for the both of you and not get too hung up about your waking figure as this will come down again. I try to ensure that no meal increases my blood glucose by more than 2 and no reading is more than 8. If high beforehand I cut out the meal or cut the carbs completely. Don't forget about the information and guides on our homepage - they are an excellent resource. I found the Blood Glucose Testing and related pages invaluable and posted my own threads when I was unsure. This was one of the reasons behind me posting this thread. Any concerns I would post your own thread or even consider re-post yours above in Newly Diagnosed as there is a lot of help and support available.

Thanks for that. I'll check it out.

 

[Magisham]

A late meal with low carb, but containing high protein foods, and also fat is asking for trouble. The protein will be metabolised into glucose just like carbs and the fat will delay the 'protein bump' till morning.

I suggest eating earlier in the night, and possibly reducing portion size of the protein foods. Try it and see if it makes any difference.

Also look back at your routine to see what else may have changed. Timing of some meds can affect readings too. A change in test strips can change meter results too.

Thanks. We really should try to eat earlier I know. Other half is a poor sleeper and we are both night owls so tend to sleep late. Consequently we are having breakfast at lunch time, then evening dinner at about 7ish. I do try to limit proteins, but he does tend to munch on the nuts. Have done a veg curry with cauliflower rice tonight so we'll see how we get on in the morning.

 

[Magisham]

After the veg curry and cauliflower rice the reading was 10 yesterday morning. We had dinner at about 7.30pm (he was out all day), pork chop, French beans and cabbage. He did his blood 2 hours later, 5.4. He then, against my advice had some unsalted nuts and 4 large strawberries. Blood was 11 this morning. Do you think I should give him a slow releasing carb before he goes to bed, like a small bowl of porridge? His bloods seem to go high when he hasn't eaten for a while. Before I read all the stuff about the liver needing a rest between meals I was making sure he had food every couple of hours. Don't know what to do for the best.

 

[NurseDee]

I have liver dumps every morning...normally its about 8.5mmols on waking and it creeps up. I have a black coffe then i do the 'best seated excercise for diabetics' by Glucosezone on utube. Its a 30 min seated excercise program specifically to reduce the stored gylogen in the body. After doing this my levels drop to 4.5mmols and remains steadily below 6mmols the whole day on lchf eating.

So it really helps me to lower/deplete sugar stores quickly and helps tone as well. Check it out....i'm really interested to see if it works for anyone else

 

[Oldvatr]

After the veg curry and cauliflower rice the reading was 10 yesterday morning. We had dinner at about 7.30pm (he was out all day), pork chop, French beans and cabbage. He did his blood 2 hours later, 5.4. He then, against my advice had some unsalted nuts and 4 large strawberries. Blood was 11 this morning. Do you think I should give him a slow releasing carb before he goes to bed, like a small bowl of porridge? His bloods seem to go high when he hasn't eaten for a while. Before I read all the stuff about the liver needing a rest between meals I was making sure he had food every couple of hours. Don't know what to do for the best.

what type of nuts did he consume? I had a smallish pak of cashews the other day, and spiked higher than expected. I checked the label on the pak, and it had 35g / 100g of carbs, of which 25g was sugars. Mind you they were cheapo roasted nuts. The nuts are highish protein, which will eventually convert into blood sugars just like carbs, but this takes a while (8 hours or so). The strawbs are fruit, so are mainly fructose sugar, which our bodies have diffficulty in digesting. Again will convert to glucose later than normal sugar.
You have not indicated any medication, so I am assuming a diet only approach. It is probably Liver Dump in the morning, since the post prandial result of 5.4 shows a meal is normally handled adequately. This may resolve itself when sufficient body fat has been emptied by the low carb regime.

EDIT: must have been in a hypo when I posted this. typo's adjusted.

 

[ickihun]

I am thinking the dawn phenomenon is a myth and is more to do with what we are eating. Or rather the liver dump is the myth. For example liquids take 20-30 mins for the digestive process to work and increase blood sugars, fruit/veg/grains carbohydrates take 20mins-3hrs-8hrs roughly depending on what they are, meat proteins/fats can take any where from 8 - 48 hrs. Given the body is "resting" between night feed and morning feed, it make sense its not processing the liquid and carbohydrates but concentrating on the proteins and fats. The body likes to process the energy from the quickest to the slowest sources. So liquids stop the solids digesting and proteins are the last to b digested. This is why fasting works. There is nothing for the digestion to process except the slowest foods. Given the dawn phenomenon kicks in about 10hrs after the last meal of the night, this falls in line with the 8hrs digestion process it takes for meat to digest hence the surge in blood sugars. At least thats what I think I have no other evidence to say Im right or wrong.

The liver does play a part. Check wikipedia for what the liver does.
Diabetics don't need it's intervention (liver dump) so techniques can be used to fool the liver. Metformin is one of them.

 

[Dave from Weeton]

I have liver dumps every morning...normally its about 8.5mmols on waking and it creeps up. I have a black coffe then i do the 'best seated excercise for diabetics' by Glucosezone on utube. Its a 30 min seated excercise program specifically to reduce the stored gylogen in the body. After doing this my levels drop to 4.5mmols and remains steadily below 6mmols the whole day on lchf eating.

So it really helps me to lower/deplete sugar stores quickly and helps tone as well. Check it out....i'm really interested to see if it works for anyone else

Yes I have liver dumps most mornings too, though more obvious when I get up much earlier for work, though mine were in the high 6s and 7s. I also do exercise after breakfast though nothing as intense, more a brisk walk for nearly hour on the lanes and paths around where I live. Afterwards my figure is usually 5s, occasionally high 4s, and remains less than 7 after eating LCHF . After nearly 3 months of this my beer (+ cereal and pasta) belly has almost gone and along with 2 stones of weight
Getting rid of stored gylogen is definately more important rather than getting too worried about relatively high waking figures unless they persist throughout the day.

Interestingly this week every waking figure for me has been in the 5s and I have had numerous high 4s before my evening meal. Hopefully this reflects the start of a change mentioned in posts from those who have been LCHF for longer who report that waking figure reduce eventually. I think in one instance someone said it took them around 6 months. Maybe this is the kind of timescale required to get rid of the excess fat from the liver so that it can function more effectively (fatty liver).

 

[ickihun]

@Dave from Weeton I got rid of my fatty liver in 3 months. No exercise was involved. Diet only, oh and no more metformin.
Metformin can cause liver problems. Read it's info leaflet. Metformin works on the liver.
My specialist won't put me back on metformin. Every drug has side effects.
I work my liver but without metformin. No reoccurance of fatty liver, so far.
Lchf diet got rid of my fatty liver. To which I'm very very grateful.
Everybody gets liver dump. Being insulin resistant I don't need its help so I use techniques to help me with that. It keeps my bgs and fbg lower. Just like metformin for some. Metformin also helps me with other medical problems so I'm trying to mimic it's benefits manually as the drug interfers with my liver, possibly. So far so good.

 

[Kyi]

The liver does play a part. Check wikipedia for what the liver does.
Diabetics don't need it's intervention (liver dump) so techniques can be used to fool the liver. Metformin is one of them.

Im not saying the liver does not process higher blood sugars during the night. What I am saying is its from food being digested during the night. Its not some mystical body function just processing sugar from nothing.

 

[NurseDee]

@Dave from Weeton...Thats great! Seems that depleting glycogen from the musclesin the morning is important in overall control throughout the day.

Well done on the weight loss...thats a major achievement