Should we ban butter?

[ally5555]

margarine was developed really to save milk supplies during the war.

Added to this is something like flora pro active that people use incorrectly - they need to use about 25g (2.4g plant sterol) so they scrape it on and it has no effect on cholesterol levels.Wasted money!

 

[Bluenosesol]

My DN told me that you would have to eat 12 very thickly spread slices of bread each day to make a difference, but then just think of the damage that the 200g carbs of bread would do!.
As for the yoghurts, they spike my BG!.

Steve

 

[ally5555]

OMG - did she really tell you that plus potatoes , cereals etc ?

I really dispair on times!

 

[graham64]

Would still love an answer to my earlier question - Trigs 7.7 to 0.9, LDL down, HDL up, BP down, HBA1C 10.3 to 5.6, weight 17 stone 5 pounds to 13 stone 2 pounds and all done during an increased to high fat diet.
What's going on?

All the best - Steve.

Hi Steve I think I have found a partial response, this is a reply from a dietitian to a T2 who found his lipids had improved following changing to a HF/LC diet.

People with Type 2 Diabetes are highly likely to suffer from problems with their heart health. It is known that in people with Type 2 Diabetes cholesterol is the leading cause of these problems and ... read more that lowering cholesterol with statins is effective. You have not told me your sex or previous lipid values but for someone with Type 2 Diabetes your profile is very unusual. Usually people with Type 2 Diabetes have a low good ‘HDL’ cholesterol and raised triglycerides. There are possible reasons for your profile but these would need to be elucidated by a specialist lipidologist.

http://www.satfatnav.com/Experts/AskOur ... onist.aspx

We are unusual :wink: and I think we know the reasons for the profle.

Cheers
Graham

 

[viv1969]

Did you know you cannot buy 'margarine' in the UK anymore?
Go to a supermarket and check it out.

 

[clearviews]

Hey there Steve & Graham
Don't forget me! I am another one who wants to know what is going on.
Initially my total cholesterol went up and the Dr and Endo never explained ratios, nor did they tell me that with weight loss (19 kgs to date) this is a likely outcome. They just prescribed statins. I gathered up courage, research and threw the scripts away.
Now I get congratulated for my results and they state that I do not need to take statins.
Do you think they will ever get around to asking me if I eat butter (and coconut oil, olive oil, macadamia oil, flaxseed oil, pork crackling) while my figures get better and better?
Alison

 

[Bluenosesol]

Alsion,

those results are inspiring by the way!!...

I note you have Culburra Beach and we have 3 degrees, dark skies and driving rain!!

I am no scientist and I take previous points that we are all different etc etc etc......however
those that achieve good results on a high carb & low fat diet at least have the establishment on their side....
...........sometimes as a low carber on high fat achieving great results, I feel like someone who has seen an alien and is too frightened to tell anyone in case they think I am nuts!!.

All the Best - Steve

 

[hanadr]

I keep on with my Metformin, because I think it's a safe medicine( at 2 or 3 x 500mg/diem)
However, I CAN do without IF I'm absluely rigorous with the <20 carbs per day and I like an occasional one as in an apple or a few berries. I even have an occasional carb free chip, You know the ones off someone else's plate
Hana
I'm just waiting on the results of this week's bloods. However, my meter average( 1 or 2 tests per day) is currently 5.2 for hte last 7 days.

 

[fergus]

Just a postscript on the original topic, which of course was essentially whether saturated fats cause heart disease.

The surgeon quoted an old Finnish Nurses Study on the link between saturated fats and death from heart disease. There have been many more recent clinical trials that have fundamentally questioned that link. The Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism recently published a report on Fats and Fatty Acids in Human Nutrition which was part of an Expert Consultation held by the World Health Organization and Food and Agriculture Organisation.
Both epidemiological and intervention studies were considered. On the epidemiological studies it was concluded that “Intake of saturated fatty acids was not significantly associated Cardiovascular Heart Disease mortality“ and “ Saturated Fatty Acids was not significantly associated with Cardio Vascular Disease events “.
The intervention studies, where they compare people on low fat with those not on low fat diets the conclusion was “ fatal cardiovascular disease is not reduced by low fat diets”
This week there was another significant study published looking at 21 epidemiological studies and the conclusion was.....?
No association between saturated fat and risk of heart disease and no association between saturated fats and risk of stroke.

Just in case anyone is interested in the actual evidence, rather than simply confirming established beliefs! :wink:

All the best,

fergus

 

[phoenix]

For those interested (and a lot of very serious reading all the background papers to the conference mentioned by Fergus are available to read. There is enough in that set of papers to debate fats until the cows have not only come home but milked and the butter made.
http://www.online.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=Ausgabe&Ausgabe=250361&ProduktNr=223977

Here is the postcript to the CVD one

Postcript: from the' Dietary Fat and Coronary Heart Disease: Summary of Evidence from Prospective Cohort and Randomised Controlled Trials' cited by Fergus above

A pooled analysis of 11 cohort studies of dietary fat and coronary disease was presented to the Expert Consultation(Nov, 2008) and the manuscript was published shortly thereafter in May 2009 [Jakobsen et al., 2009]. .......... ( ie it came after the original analysis)
Pooling Project combined the results from 11 cohort studies – each meeting criteria for quality of dietary assessment, years of follow-up, and ascertainment of events – to examine the effect on CHD death and CHD events of replacing SFA with MUFA, PUFA or carbohydrate. The main finding was a significantly decreased risk of CHD death and CHD events when PUFA replaces SFA. (stats omitted)
This result from the pooling of observational studies, along with supportive evidence from clinical trials of lower CHD risk in high P/S diets, and the effects of PUFA to lower LDL cholesterol and the total:high-density lipoprotein ratio, led the Consultation to conclude there was convincing evidence of lower CHD risk when PUFA replaces SFA.

The second metaanalysis is here
http://www.nmsociety.org/App_Themes/Images/AboutFat/Siri-Tarino SAFA CVD Risk.pdfand concludes:

In conclusion, our meta-analysis showed that there is insufficient evidence from prospective epidemiologic studies to conclude that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased
risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD. However, the available data were not adequate for determining whether there are CHD or stroke associations with saturated fat in specific age and sex subgroups.
Furthermore, there was insufficient statistical power for this meta-analysis to assess the effects on CVD risk of replacing specific amounts of saturated fat with either polyunsaturated fat or carbohydrate. Finally, nutritional epidemiologic studies provide only one category of evidence for evaluating the relation of saturated fat intake to risk for CHD, stroke, and CVD. An overall assessment requires consideration of results of clinical trials as well as information regarding the effects of saturated fat on underlying disease mechanisms, as discussed elsewhere in this
issue (46).

I think that the evidence still supports a wise choice of fats. Though will still go for a little butter on my occasional slice of wholegrain toast and get my polyunsaturated fats from natural sources.

 

[catherinecherub]

I found this website which has a good piece on diabetes and nutrition.

Interestingly, and I quote, "Recommended daily amounts of fat differ depending on whether you are at your desired weight, overweight or have high blood fat, (cholesterol) levels". I agree with this and we all have differing needs. As I am at my desired weight I eat in moderation. Someone who is underweight will need more and someone with high cholesterol needs to lower their fat intake.

This article explains all the food groups and how to keep your blood glucose in check with nutrition.

http://www.sansum.org/nut-diab.php

 

[clearviews]

I found this website which has a good piece on diabetes and nutrition.

Interestingly, and I quote, "Recommended daily amounts of fat differ depending on whether you are at your desired weight, overweight or have high blood fat, (cholesterol) levels". I agree with this and we all have differing needs. As I am at my desired weight I eat in moderation. Someone who is underweight will need more and someone with high cholesterol needs to lower their fat intake.

Surely the statement that "someone with high cholesterol needs to lower their fat intake" is only relevant when science has proven studies that eating fat raises your cholesterol. :?: What is moderation? Given I was low fat for decades is what I now have excessive by some opinions or is it right for a healthy outcome for me?

I have been at my desired weight for about 4 months now and I am eating no more and no less (including fats) than I was when I started low carbing, to gain control of my blood glucose. Once I did have control the weight loss started and I can only surmise that it stopped as my body had reached what the HCPs consider a "healthy BMI range" (24). Perhaps there is a proven science behind why my weight loss stopped while having the same food and fat intake and my BG control I understand, is excellent.
Alison

 

[noblehead]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

A word that keeps coming up throughout the forum is 'moderation'. Not a better word in the English Dictionary to describe how we all should eat.

Let's all start a 'moderation group' up on the forum, one that is neither to the left or the right, one stuck firmly in the middle who answers all food questions by starting with the word 'moderation'.
All those in favour raise your hands..................................................... :roll:

Guess I'm on my own again!

Nigel

 

[clearviews]

I might raise my hand if someone could decide what "moderate" is when it comes to butter.
Alison

 

[brill]

Regarding plant sterols, Bluenosesol wrote

My DN told me that you would have to eat 12 very thickly spread slices of bread each day to make a difference, but then just think of the damage that the 200g carbs of bread would do!.
As for the yoghurts, they spike my BG!.

Likewise, also they (yoghurts) taste like sick....
You can buy capsules of the plant sterols in Boots so you don't have to eat tons of marge to get the correct dose. I have been trying them the last few months; I'll get my latest test results next week, so I'll find out whether it's helped. Fingers crossed...

 

[Doczoc]

Well I'm eating loads of butter, lard, cheese and cream. In the absence of starchy carbs I have dropped five stone in weight, my blood lipid panels are the healthiest they've been in years, I reversed fatty liver disease in a couple of months (when I was advised to go on a low fat diet and expect it to take up to two years), stabilised BG, reversed sleep apnoea, and so on and so on.

The scary thing is that I can see a day when butter is banned forcing me back to the carbs that were killing me.

The interesting thing is that in all aspects of life we are told we are unique, we have different intelligences, emotional response, spatial awareness, body types (meso, ecto and endo), we respond differently to meds and so the list goes on.

But try to tell some people that carbs make me unhealthy and I function better on a high fat diet and the sky starts falling in...

 

[Bluenosesol]

Doczoc,

MUSIC TO MY EARS......

I have followed a similar regime, lost over 5 stone, reversed sleep apnoia (awaiting results from recent sleep clinic) and eat fat for England - Trigs decimated from 7.7 to 0.9 and lipids improved fantastically, also reversed fatty liver disease. You must be my twin !!!. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Doczoc]

Doczoc,

MUSIC TO MY EARS......

I have followed a similar regime, lost over 5 stone, reversed sleep apnoia (awaiting results from recent sleep clinic) and eat fat for England - Trigs decimated from 7.7 to 0.9 and lipids improved fantastically, also reversed fatty liver disease. You must be my twin !!!. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ha ha

When I went to the sleep clinic, I explained I no longer needed treatment. The consultant didn't want to know about my diet, he put it all down to the weight loss! I kept saying, "No, the sleep apnoea went within two weeks of low carbing. And I was suffering many years ago when I was far lighter" He didn't want to know -

So you went against the conventional wisdom for fatty liver too??? How long did it take? My doc simply said 'Remarkable!' when I went back two months after being diagnosed with an all clear result LOL She just said "keep on doing what you are doing!" I was a bit nervous about that, but just knew it was the right thing to do, haven't looked back since!

By the way my last trigs were 0.7 so na na na na LOL

Seriously though, well done, it's good to be going in the right direction health wise isn't it. It's a shame it's all anecdotal though, can't be real unless it's been carried out in a lab!

 

[sip]

The short answer is NO.

The long answer: we are all different and react differently to different foods. Each one of us is unique and must tailor our diets to our physiological needs.

For example, I cannot eat raw salads as my body finds it extremely difficult to break down raw greens and this in turn causes me to become nauseous or gives me intense migrains.

My father passed-on at the age of 83. For nearly forty years, I saw him having butter, ghee and ghaur (which is made by boiling molasses extracted from the production of cane sugar) for breakfast.

I reckon that he was healthier at 80 than I was at 40.

 

[JohnFox]

When i was young, many years ago, all the dairy produce that was available was raw.
Steadily, heat treatment has become the norm for dairy produce.
The increase in heart problems and diabetes has kept pace with this change...

There is a little and very interesting experiment to try.
Open a pot of Low-Fat spread, leave it in a shaded place and check it occasionally,
it will not grow mould, it will not be eaten, even by flies...

The reason is that it is only one molecule from being pure plastic...

Butter, in it's raw state is as nature intended it, as are most of the cold pressed
oils, Coconut, Olive, Walnut, Grapeseed, Avocado, Flaxseed, etc.

As a diagnosed diabetic, of ten years now, still not taking drugs and still not showing
any of the 'inevitable' symptoms of degeneration, i am convinced that it is sugar and
foods that turn into sugar that are the real problem.

As i still work on my understanding, i am moving more toward fresh and less processed foods.

Banning Butter is a Silly Idea!
Leaving it raw would be better.

John Fox.