What is the expected blood sugar reading if a diabetic uses a severe Atkins diet?

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yetta2mymom

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@yetta2mymom - diabetes has not been pinned down to one single gene. The latest science on epigenetics seems to indicate a much higher degree of complexity than simply one gene = one condition. Genes can be switched on or off by environmental factors, diet, etc. I recently had my DNA sequenced and the report came back with 20 different SNP's indicating risk of Type 2, but I still don't think it was inevitable that I would go on to get it. I also have really high risk factors for HLA-B27 syndromes (like psoriasis) but (touch wood) haven't developed signs of any of them yet. My mother on the other hand was a life-long severe psoriasis sufferer. Who knows why she got it but I haven't so far?
Hi
I have said nothing about what creates diabetes. I have said that I suspect (not proved) that many of the people whose ancestors lived in a hunting type culture and/or were subject to numerous famines would have what ever is the gene(s) that create the "hunter" glucose tolerance test. These people would tend (not inevitable but tough) when eating the recent western diet to become fat and many of them go on to be diabetics. I suspect that all large population tend to have a mix of people who process sugar the usual way and some with the "hunter" gene(s). With evolutionary time one or the other would tend to predominate. The "hunter" people are more efficient in processing sugar and more likely to survive tough times. I have likely not figured out all the downsides of the "hunter" gene(s). One downside is women with the "hunter" gene have trouble controlling sugar during pregnancy. I assume more miscarriages, premature babies, death due to complications in pregnancy etc... especially in primitive societies.
 

yetta2mymom

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It is just my preference to be below 40.
Hi

I am not disappointed. I have a poor (more than 1/2 possible yearly values not taken) but serviceable record of my blood sugar values for the last 8 years. Between 8 and 6 years (no 7 year record) my fasting blood sugar rose from 95 to (think 98? haven't looked recently) in all other years I have either my fasting blood sugar or my A1C. I remember A1C (U.S. units) of 5.4 and now it is 5.8 (U.S. units). At no point over the years do the readings go down (strange you would have thought measurement noise for small changes would make this very unlikely) and they slowly go up. I am fascinated because about 7 years ago I changed from a diet which controlled my sugar/starch intake to an out and out strong Atkins type diet. I am writing an article for the Scientific American and this is one of the reasons I propose that I have turned off my production of insulin with my "hunter" gene and my diet. I note that if I turn on my insulin release too much (is it at all?) I get severe fatigue symptoms as the (my educated guess) timing of how much and when to release insulin has been compromised by an autoimmune reaction destroying one type cell in my adrenal glands.
 

SunnyExpat

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As you ask, I would personally be disappointed with a 5.8 A1C despite a severe Atkins diet if I were non-diabetic.

It is just my preference to be below 40.

40 is actually 5.8%, and the tolerance, and personal hemoglobin means you could actually be over, so you may need to re-assess your own targets.

Who knows, the op may actually have better control than yourself.
 
A

Avocado Sevenfold

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40 is actually 5.8%, and the tolerance, and personal hemoglobin means you could actually be over, so you may need to re-assess your own targets.

Who knows, the op may actually have better control than yourself.
It's not a competition. I am happy with my results and targets, thanks.
 

SunnyExpat

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It's not a competition. I am happy with my results and targets, thanks.

I would guess the op is, why did you bring it 40 up as a problem, if it's your personal target as well?
 
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A

Avocado Sevenfold

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I would guess the op is, why did you bring it 40 up as a problem, if it's your personal target as well?

Can I remind you, the ethos on here is to be nice, especially to newbies?
The opening post asked if 5.8 (40) was an expected result after 7 years of strict Atkins. I said would personally be disappointed.
 
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Lamont D

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[QUOTE="LittleGreyCat, post: 1213225, member: 6467"

Final puzzle; when does Reactive Hypoglycemia become T2 Diabetes? Is there a cross over? If you have high BG for, say, 4 hours before you crash into a hypo then you seem to have two problems: firstly you spend most of the day with elevated BG but eventually you crash into hypo territory. I would thing the long term elevated BG would most likely classify you as T2 (as the most serious condition) with an added complication of RG.[/QUOTE]

Hi @LittleGreyCat
Good questions
First, you can have both T2 and RH! As does @Brunneria.
There is no cross over! Though, if I had continued down the journey before diagnosis, I think I would have become diabetic as my insulin resistance and my hyperinsulinaemia would have gone that way.

You are correct in your assumption that fluctuating blood glucose levels which includes hyperglycaemia and then hypoglycaemia would cause elevated glucose levels, when I was initially misdiagnosed as T2, my reading was above thirty! Very high! What I refer to as my hypo hell is a long list of symptoms that are terrible and made me very ill. Which until I had my referral, I had no idea, what was going on!
No GP or dsn or a previous endocrinologist had a clue!

My RH is classed as 'Late'! Simply because my insulin keeps being produced as an overshoot, as my endocrinologist calls it!
My fasting and ketogenic lifestyle keeps me healthy and my hypo hell days are well gone!
 

himtoo

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why can't everyone get on........
i have read through this thread and while i do not wholly understand all of the complex issues being discussed -- this has been mostly an informative lively discussion on a fairly rare area within the D community.
can we please all stick to the topic or refrain from name calling and derailing

thanks !
 

yetta2mymom

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40 is actually 5.8%, and the tolerance, and personal hemoglobin means you could actually be over, so you may need to re-assess your own targets.

Who knows, the op may actually have better control than yourself.

Hi

I have no target. I eat a severe Atkins style diet. There is a type 1 diabetic boy (this site reports) who has gone 2 years without insulin with my type diet. With that diet and my "hunter" gene I probably do not produce (maybe a little) insulin. I do not get the severe fatigue which I think is what happens when I release insulin. I had an autoimmune reaction (think type 1 diabetes without the thirst) in 1957. I assume for the "hunter" gene(s) to work the adrenal gland has to create chemical signals judging by my blood sugar to start the engins etc... If my blood sugar does not rise to an unknown amount nothing happens. I assume I have distroyed one type cell in my adrenal glands and the timing and amount of insulin to release has been compromised. This leads to inappropriate release of insulin and that leads to the wrong blood sugar (2 or 3 reading were 60) and I feel fatigue.
 

catapillar

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I really hope you are producing insulin. If you aren't making insulin and you aren't injecting it, you will die.

There will be a steady stream of glucose going into your blood from your liver - your body will be making insulin to get that energy into your cells. Even those who are keto adapted need insulin (sure a type 1 in nutritional ketosis will be having significantly less insulin, but they will still be having some insulin, just like someone who doesn't rely on exogenous insulin will still be producing insulin on a severe Atkins diet).

Maybe it would help your understanding and development of your theories if you had a cpeptide test to see what your insulin production is like? Just a thought.

Also, propagating the idea that you can live without insulin is, frankly, dangerous - either you are making it or you are injecting it or you are dead. Those are the only options. A type 1 on a low carb diet with no injections will be getting away without injections because they are honeymooning and thus producing some of their own insulin.
 
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yetta2mymom

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I really hope you are producing insulin. If you aren't making insulin and you aren't injecting it, you will die.

There will be a steady stream of glucose going into your blood from your liver - your body will be making insulin to get that energy into your cells. Even those who are keto adapted need insulin (sure a type 1 in nutritional ketosis will be having significantly less insulin, but they will still be having some insulin, just like someone who doesn't rely on exogenous insulin will still be producing insulin on a severe Atkins diet).

Maybe it would help your understanding and development of your theories if you had a cpeptide test to see what your insulin production is like? Just a thought.

Good thought, but I have no time.

Also, propagating the idea that you can live without insulin is, frankly, dangerous - either you are making it or you are injecting it or you are dead. Those are the only options. A type 1 on a low carb diet with no injections will be getting away without injections because they are honeymooning and thus producing some of their own insulin.

Hi
I am probably pretty close to a type 1 diabetic on my diet (maybe a little more insulin). Just for your information I have been on a severe Atkins style diet for about 7 years. With my "hunter" gene I have at first lost then gained back weight (I am fat). I am now trying to cut the calories and lose some weight. I note that with low sugar my experience, if I try and lose weight, is my body can go into save energy mode. It may have. Strangely I may make me half awake but if I eat enough sugar losing weight does not lead to this effect. I am resting/sleeping too many hours each day. Yes my sleep is disturbed but not more than most people my age (77) and one effect of my autoimmune episode is I wake during most rem dreams. No, the memory of the dream is usually quickly gone and usually I am back asleep within a few minutes.
 

chalup

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I really hope you are producing insulin. If you aren't making insulin and you aren't injecting it, you will die.

There will be a steady stream of glucose going into your blood from your liver - your body will be making insulin to get that energy into your cells. Even those who are keto adapted need insulin (sure a type 1 in nutritional ketosis will be having significantly less insulin, but they will still be having some insulin, just like someone who doesn't rely on exogenous insulin will still be producing insulin on a severe Atkins diet).

Maybe it would help your understanding and development of your theories if you had a cpeptide test to see what your insulin production is like? Just a thought.

Also, propagating the idea that you can live without insulin is, frankly, dangerous - either you are making it or you are injecting it or you are dead. Those are the only options. A type 1 on a low carb diet with no injections will be getting away without injections because they are honeymooning and thus producing some of their own insulin.

This is really the heart of the matter. Unless you are T1 and producing NO insulin there is insulin present at some level. The pancreas does not come with a tap you can turn on and off. Very low carb reduces the amount of insulin needed to handle the carb load but does not eliminate the need entirely. As for the body and brain using up what little glucose is in the blood, it needs insulin to do that. And I totally agree that giving someone who is a brand new type 1 the idea that they could just change their diet and stop using insulin is dangerous.
 

catapillar

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Hi
I am probably pretty close to a type 1 diabetic on my diet (maybe a little more insulin). Just for your information I have been on a severe Atkins style diet for about 7 years.

I don't know what this means. "Pretty close to a type 1 diabetic on my diet"? It doesn't really make any sense. For your information, there is no type 1 diet. The advice to type 1s is, essentially, eat whatever you want, inject insulin to cover it. Type 1 diets and the amount of carbs eaten vary by individual.

I hope you aren't trying to say that you have induced a state "close to a type 1 diabetic" on your body via your diet. Because that would be a very silly thing to say and expose a complete failure to understand both what type 1 diabetes is and how your body works.
 
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Lamont D

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Hi
I am probably pretty close to a type 1 diabetic on my diet (maybe a little more insulin). Just for your information I have been on a severe Atkins style diet for about 7 years. With my "hunter" gene I have at first lost then gained back weight (I am fat). I am now trying to cut the calories and lose some weight. I note that with low sugar my experience, if I try and lose weight, is my body can go into save energy mode. It may have. Strangely I may make me half awake but if I eat enough sugar losing weight does not lead to this effect. I am resting/sleeping too many hours each day. Yes my sleep is disturbed but not more than most people my age (77) and one effect of my autoimmune episode is I wake during most rem dreams. No, the memory of the dream is usually quickly gone and usually I am back asleep within a few minutes.

Hi again,

I've read this thread again and again and I believe that you are struggling to come to terms with what your condition actually is.
Every little symptom that you trickle into your posts, I have had during my ' hypo hell'!
Your latest post about dreams, is one of my severe symptoms that I no longer have!
Of course I still dream and during REM sleep, I have the same dreams but the sleep disturbances has gone, it is not an age thing, it is a symptom!
I really believe you need to review your 'severe Atkins diet', as it clearly not working.

You need up to date tests, you must seek real diagnostic tests, this is your health!

Believing a decades old doctors theory and tests is holding you back.

You have a condition that needs proper care, no matter what it is.
You are struggling for help, you are stuck,, what you have explained is not working.
Take a step back and think outside the box, get yourself a new medical and see what that turns up. Find out by testing with a monitor, what difference other low carb foods do to you. A ketogenic diet works for me. My insulin is in control.
You need insulin, you get a trickle all the time, it's only what triggers the extra insulin, you need to control, staying in ketosis and keeping the excess insulin and glucose in control should work for you.

Do yourself a favour, review your health care options!
Best wishes!
 
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yetta2mymom

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This is really the heart of the matter. Unless you are T1 and producing NO insulin there is insulin present at some level. The pancreas does not come with a tap you can turn on and off. Very low carb reduces the amount of insulin needed to handle the carb load but does not eliminate the need entirely. As for the body and brain using up what little glucose is in the blood, it needs insulin to do that. And I totally agree that giving someone who is a brand new type 1 the idea that they could just change their diet and stop using insulin is dangerous.

Hi

I agree I very likely have some insulin. I disagree as I am not producing more insulin than needed for auxiliary functions. I am not changing (possibly most) of the sugar to fat. My explanation is I have symptoms (don't lose weight without additional restrictions on my diet, feel fine with my diet) that indicate I am not going full bore in creating insulin but I have no idea how much of a small amount of insulin I am producing. Is my body reeving up to start producing insulin in larger quantities etc...? The doctor who defined my glucose tolerance test as the "hunter" gene said he found it after all sorts of grouping as to why the small subset of his population trying to lose weight didn't. With the diary entrees they had, were they lying? I have read that a lot of energy (up to 1/3) of energy is lost in storing and then releasing sugar.
 

paulliljeros

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@yetta2mymom I wish you luck in finding the information and doctor you are looking for, but I think it is becoming apparent to me that you aren't going to find it on this thread. It sounds like you are looking for a single doctor who has made a single statement at some point in the past 6 decades, about this so called hunter gene. It is my (uneducated) guess, that this is a phrase only he used, and you are going to struggle to find it.
If I was as desperate as you clearly are to find an answer, I would be grabbing at each and every insight that has been thrown at you on this thread, and be spreading my energy across them all.
"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it or to spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it." D.L.Moody
I hope you find what you are looking for.
 
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yetta2mymom

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@yetta2mymom I wish you luck in finding the information and doctor you are looking for, but I think it is becoming apparent to me that you aren't going to find it on this thread. It sounds like you are looking for a single doctor who has made a single statement at some point in the past 6 decades, about this so called hunter gene. It is my (uneducated) guess, that this is a phrase only he used, and you are going to struggle to find it.
If I was as desperate as you clearly are to find an answer, I would be grabbing at each and every insight that has been thrown at you on this thread, and be spreading my energy across them all.
"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it or to spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it." D.L.Moody
I hope you find what you are looking for.
@yetta2mymom I wish you luck in finding the information and doctor you are looking for, but I think it is becoming apparent to me that you aren't going to find it on this thread. It sounds like you are looking for a single doctor who has made a single statement at some point in the past 6 decades, about this so called hunter gene. It is my (uneducated) guess, that this is a phrase only he used, and you are going to struggle to find it.
If I was as desperate as you clearly are to find an answer, I would be grabbing at each and every insight that has been thrown at you on this thread, and be spreading my energy across them all.
"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it or to spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it." D.L.Moody
I hope you find what you are looking for.

Hi

I have made a quest to find out what was the problem. I rode over the medical community as they annoyed me by not cooperating in my quest. I found probably a world expert on adrenal problems who had the confidence and the humility to try and help me. He admitted they know little about the fine workings of the adrenal gland. I put advertisements in the New York Times and found 1 additional sufferer. I noted my probable autoimmune episode in 1957 (think type 1 diabetes without thirst). I found out that a relative had a similar episode at approximately the same time (virus?). I asked and they indicated that they could not hold jobs (fell asleep) and were afraid to do highway driving. I looked at my glucose tolerance test and remembered (I am often slow on the uptake but some people are very impressed with what I come up with) the weight loss doctor and his "hunter" gene, bingo not insulin resistant a gene which leads to an inability to lose weight on weight loss diets. What could that be? Just looking at the glucose tolerance test and the weight effect it was obvious (to me) that the sugar was not being changed into fat until the blood sugar rose. What was the autoimmune effect. It was obvious (to me) that there had to be (complicated?) chemistry to stop the production of insulin and that if 1 type cell in the adrenal gland which helped in the process was destroyed there would be problems. I tend to talk too much and I was sprouting my theories when an Indian man became agitated. He said half or Indians were prediabetic but did not become diabetic (almost certainly my gene) and that during pregnancy his wife had a spike in blood sugar with one grain and no problem with another grain (no idea bread, pasta etc...). I started asking people who looked like they came from the near east. Many confirmations did the many famines when the monsoon fail make an evolutionary (word?) which lead to the prevalence of my gene. All these women had problems controlling sugar in pregnancy. Is that the reason evolution only made some people have the "hunter" gene or is there more problems (weight)? My researcher said that the near east people when they switch to western diet become fat and go diabetic. Of the 4 people in my family who I know have the "hunter" gene 3 are or were fat (2 died). If we do not lose weight why shouldn't we gain it? I looked around the world and talked (emailed) people and found the plains American Indians, the near east population, pacific Islanders all get fat when they switch to the western diet. Looks like populations with many famines or hunters are evolutionary favored to end up with the "hunter" gene. I wrote this up and asked to put an ad in Scientific American. The ad taker said the publisher would contact me. He has indicated it will be an article in Scientific American. I will believe it when I see it.
 

azure

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@yetta2mymom I have read your posts and I really think that this 'hunter gene' you're referring to is, as suggested before, simply another name for the 'thrifty gene'.

Have a look at this article:

https://sciencelife.uchospitals.edu/2013/03/07/how-type-2-diabetes-survived-evolution/

" A popular explanation is that insulin resistance, a predisposition to type 2 diabetes, actually provided a protective benefit to humans who lived as hunter-gatherers. Insulin resistance limits the body’s intake of glucose by muscle and liver cells, therefore allowing its storage by fat cells. The body could use this extra glucose, so the theory goes, during cycles of feast and famine when people couldn’t be sure of their next meal. This so-called “thrifty genotype” hypothesis was proposed by University of Michigan geneticist James Neel in 1962, and still holds a lot of sway in the scientific community.

Another similar explanation, called the “carnivore connection,” is that insulin resistance developed in hunter-gatherers and herders because they had a low-carbohydrate (and low glucose), protein-rich diet, resulting in the need to save glucose in the blood to make it accessible for the brain. This same resistance was no longer needed in early farmers, however, because they had begun to incorporate carbohydrates into their diets as they learned to cultivate grains"



So the 'hunter' has something very similar to the thrifty gene. Other sites have posited similar things - that some people are better suited to a lower carb diet.
 

yetta2mymom

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@yetta2mymom I have read your posts and I really think that this 'hunter gene' you're referring to is, as suggested before, simply another name for the 'thrifty gene'.

Have a look at this article:

https://sciencelife.uchospitals.edu/2013/03/07/how-type-2-diabetes-survived-evolution/

" A popular explanation is that insulin resistance, a predisposition to type 2 diabetes, actually provided a protective benefit to humans who lived as hunter-gatherers. Insulin resistance limits the body’s intake of glucose by muscle and liver cells, therefore allowing its storage by fat cells. The body could use this extra glucose, so the theory goes, during cycles of feast and famine when people couldn’t be sure of their next meal. This so-called “thrifty genotype” hypothesis was proposed by University of Michigan geneticist James Neel in 1962, and still holds a lot of sway in the scientific community.

Another similar explanation, called the “carnivore connection,” is that insulin resistance developed in hunter-gatherers and herders because they had a low-carbohydrate (and low glucose), protein-rich diet, resulting in the need to save glucose in the blood to make it accessible for the brain. This same resistance was no longer needed in early farmers, however, because they had begun to incorporate carbohydrates into their diets as they learned to cultivate grains"



So the 'hunter' has something very similar to the thrifty gene. Other sites have posited similar things - that some people are better suited to a lower carb diet.

Hi

I have presented a detailed account of my trivial to figure out what my problem is in this (word?). The publisher of the Scientific American indicates he will have an article I have written in his magazine (seeing is believing). The "hunter" gene was defined by a weight loss doctor who drew a glucose tolerance test that goes up for over 2 hours. He said these people do not lose weight on his weight loss program. I do not necessarily lose weight on an Atkins diet. Is this commensurate with your ideas (I think not). I am now cutting calories to try and lose weight. I figured out that what is happening is that I do not process sugar until my blood sugar rises. Just look at the glucose tolerance test. I had a probable autoimmune reaction in 1957 (think type 1 diabetes without the thrust). I assume there has to be (complicated?) chemistry to have sugar behave in my fashion. I assume one of the type cells used in the process has been destroyed and the timing and amount of insulin to be released has been compromised. This has lead to fatigue whenever I evoke my store sugar (word?). If I eat a severe Atkins diet with my gene I never (hardly ever?) store my sugar and there is no problem. There is more to this story if you want to here it but I think my genetics are prevalent with varying degrees throughout the world. Women with my genetics have problems controlling sugar when pregnant. Yes, they haven't found the actual gene.
 
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