Re: Saturated Fat is Innocent?

[phoenix]

A nicely balanced post Zoroaster,
your namesake is an apposite one

 

[ally5555]

It is an interesting debate and I am glad to see that it hasnt gone the usual way.

We have to look at the whole diet - been saying this all the time because if you exclude foods there is always a danger that it will be deficient in something.

I have had words in the past with DUK about their promotion of sugar itself and do not advice my pts to take any notice of their info!

And yes the BDA advice is very generic - you cannot give individual advice in a leaflet.

TBH I think one of the problems here is that people focus on one thing carbs and do not see the bigger picture or the timing of eating , mix of foods etc. That has a huge effect on BS.
I can scan someones food diary and pick out problems because I have an in depth of knowledge and training - I often look at plans on here and cringe !

In the end it is excess of anything is the problem - carbs, fat or protein - oh and alcohol !


I can offer help but I am sure you realise I cannot give individual advice.

Oh and ps thank you for all the nice comments - I can stand up for myself but it is nice to hear people care so thank you.

I can understand why people get so passionate about diet because I am !

 

[fergus]

Okey dokey, even those who can't swallow the 'saturated fat is innocent' line might still have to accept that, at the very least, it is not guilty?
To be honest, the simplistic idea that it was a prime suspect in the first place suffers pretty badly from a lack of scientific plausibilty and clinical evidence, let alone the growing numbers of diabetics here and elsewhere reporting significantly better lipids when eating more fats and fewer carbohydrates.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit b:

http://www.wddty.com/scientists-finally-discover-how-white-bread-causes-heart-disease.html

fergus

 

[ally5555]

fergus - do it with wholemeal then ! White bread is generaly poor quality anyway - funny how they churn out these poor studies anyway. Keeps academics in jobs me thinks!

It may not be guilty from meat and eggs but it most definately is from the junk. This saturated fat is innocent sends out mixed messages for the general public dont you think? I seem to remember your pre diet was pretty rubbish and very high in fat and rubbish - I always remember the garlic bread !

I once saw a lady who ate nothing but eggs (12 a day) and about 4 pounds of roast beef - no other foods - her cholesterol was about 33! That is the highets I can recall ! We dont know what our ancestors blood lipids were they may have been awful .

Funny I get good results with a mod approach isnt it ! Oh my very anecdotal reearch shows that low carbing is a bit difficult to follow long term ! Long term we need to assess what is best and a moderate approach seems to me the best bet - good HBA1c and happy people.

 

[Synonym]

The trickiest thing for some of us is balancing the carbs to get the bg level right without losing too much weight whilst trying to stay off medication and so we need some fat.

 

[Zoroaster]

Okey dokey, even those who can't swallow the 'saturated fat is innocent' line might still have to accept that, at the very least, it is not guilty?

Stuff and nonsense. If something isn't innocent, then it isn't "not guilty". Your opening sentence may sound good but is worthy of an inhabitant of the Westminster village not a resident of a self-help forum.

To be honest, the simplistic idea that it was a prime suspect in the first place suffers pretty badly from a lack of scientific plausibilty and clinical evidence, let alone the growing numbers of diabetics here and elsewhere reporting significantly better lipids when eating more fats and fewer carbohydrates.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, exhibit b:

http://www.wddty.com/scientists-finally-discover-how-white-bread-causes-heart-disease.html

I don't recall receiving any advice to eat more white bread, in fact quite the opposite. Over simplifyng the advice we receive - even the generic advice (already oversimplified) - does a disservice to the members of this forum. Stop it.

It's an inconvenient truth that neither the FSA nor the British Dietetic association recommend eating white bread, however the public appetite for white bread is undeniable just as rather regrettable is the public appetite for the cr*p that McDonalds/Burger King/KFC/Pizza Hut/Dominos produce - despite Hana's preference for the rubbish from McDonalds.

It is also an inconvenient truth that your vested interest in your business venture means that I'm more inclined to ignore what you have to say about the type of bread I decide to eat.

Ally I note you've decided not to answer my question.

 

[fergus]

fergus - do it with wholemeal then

Really? Are you telling me there's a significant difference in the carb content or insulin response between white and wholemeal bread?
I'm afraid that's the sort of comment only a non-diabetic without a bg meter could believe.

It may not be guilty from meat and eggs but it most definately is from the junk.

Then ditch the (usually sugary, starchy) junk, no one's going to argue with that are they?

I seem to remember your pre diet was pretty rubbish and very high in fat and rubbish - I always remember the garlic bread !

Indeed it was, and much closer in principle to the sort of diet still recommended to diabetics in this country, firmly based on starchy carbohydrates.

We dont know what our ancestors blood lipids were they may have been awful .

Actually, we do know that traditional peoples around the world who eat more protein and fat, much less sugar and starch, have far better lipid profiles than in the developed world.
Yours, a 10 year low carb veteran, loving every minute and HbA1c 4.7%

fergus

p.s.
Zoroaster, as I'm sure you are aware, the standard advice to diabetics in the UK is to base the diet around starchy carbohydrate foods. Starch is starch, whether it is in the form of white bread, pasta or many other 'staples', high in blood sugar raising potential and very low in useful nutrients. The body cares little if it comes from white bread or anything else.
Nice to meet you too by the way!

 

[Zoroaster]

p.s.
Zoroaster, as I'm sure you are aware, the standard advice to diabetics in the UK is to base the diet around starchy carbohydrate foods. Starch is starch, whether it is in the form of white bread, pasta or many other 'staples', high in blood sugar raising potential and very low in useful nutrients. The body cares little if it comes from white bread or anything else.
Nice to meet you too by the way!

Yes, I agree too many carbs will cause hyperglycaemia. Once again you oversimplify the standard advice. Once again I ask you to stop it.

 

[IanD]

I am not making uninformed comments, nor am I attacking Ally, who I respect for spending time here as a non-diabetic.

NEW DIABETICS ARE GIVEN GENERIC ADVICE - WE DO NOT SEE DIETITIANS EVERY MONTH.

I saw a dietitian 3 times in about 4 years, soon after diagnosis, in a new diabetic class, then a personal consultation, & then with my wife, after her heart attack. I followed her recommendations & based my diet on complex carbs. TBH I was afraid not to after the information I was given about complications. I'm a scientist, & have kept food diaries & analysed my food. Ally did comment on my diary. I've recorded my BG & HbA1c throughout the 10 years of diabetes. You will see on other threads that I was in a diet trial in 1988 & another heart/diabetes SABRE study in 1992/3.

Then the complications set in - peripheral neuropathy - it was painful to get out of bed. My active life was over. At that point I found this forum, & with advice from Fergus & others I cut the carbs. Within 3 months my overnight BG readings fell from about 7 to below 6; I lost 7 Kg, my chol dropped from 5.4 to 4.3 & I could play tennis again. The SABRE study was followed up last year & they found NOTHING for the Dr to follow up.

I'm still well & active 2 years on.

I saw the same dietitian in January this year. She was running the X-PERT course. She has invited me back to assist further courses as one who has achieved good control & reversed complications.

The generic advice we are given is in my experience dangerous, & ensures progression of our condition. If the generic advice was to reduce carbs & increase veg & proteins with their natural fat - but not added fat - then we would get on better. I BELIEVE THAT IS ALLY'S ADVICE.

MY QUESTION CONCERNED THE ADDED SATURATED FATS & OILS THAT ARE CONSUMED WITH CARBS - FISH & CHIPS, BREAD, BUTTER & CHEESE, PIZZAs, ETC.

I am not being aggressive to anyone, just helpful, I hope. I was very glad Fergus stayed around to help others, & I am glad that the forum exists, & people who are helped stay around.

 

[findave]

The vast importance of the Harvard study is that it directly contradicts the dietary nonsense we have been fed for thirty years. Of course they have had to make some caveats (on which the low fat brigade will doubtless pounce) but the essential fact is that they have completely undermined the unstable foundations of the saturated fat /cardiovascular disease hypothesis.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I really don't care whether fat is good or bad I wont be eating more than I have to as I just don't like it.

I also prefer to follow the advice of cardiac consultants and surgeons who deal with heart disease on a daily basis and tell me not to eat sat and trans fats rather than listen to some dodgy statistical nonsense quoted by some to justify their own personal diets.

I am not interested in what anyone else eats.

I wish you all a long life whatever you decide to eat

 

[cugila]

Sid.
I couldn't agree with you more. I am sick to death of non medical people telling me to 'eat more fat, you know it makes sense.'

If that's what you want to do then do it. Just stop telling us all it has no effect on us. That's just your opinions, worth absolutely zilch ! Same as mine.

I listen to what my experts tell me, real experts. Not somebody who thinks there is only one diet to use. I always use low fat and reduced carbs, suits me fine and has given me excellent results so far. If high fat works for you great. Just get off the 'soapbox.'

What we do has life changing properties. I do what is best for ME !

 

[sue32]

Eskimos have a diet very high in saturated fat and a very low incidence of heart disease. Having high cholesterol does not mean you will have heart disease, in the same way that having low cholesterol will prevent you from having heart disease. We all need a certain amount of fat in our diet to keep us 'regular' and to keep our skin moist. It's how much fat we eat that's important. Most so called 'low fat' foods have added sugar because the fat that gives it is taste has been removed. Have a look at the ingredients on 'baked not fried' crisps. Most of them contain added sugar. The fat content is not the 'baddie', it's the sugar content.

 

[IanD]

Yes, I agree too many carbs will cause hyperglycaemia. Once again you oversimplify the standard advice. Once again I ask you to stop it.

Standard advice from "Eating well with diabetes" Diabetes UK - picked up the X-PERT course:

1. Eat regular meals based on starchy foods such as bread, pasta, potatoes, rice, & cereals. This will help you control your BG levels. Choose high fibre varieties ....

2. Try to cut down on the fat you eat ....

3. Eat more fruit & vegetables ....

4. Cut down on sugar & sugary foods. This does not mean you need to try to eat a sugar-free diet....

5. Use less salt....

6. Drink alcohol in moderation only...

For 8 years I did not "oversimplify the standard advice." I followed it - until the complications set in. I don't overeat the sat fat - I eat it as it occurs in my food. I use veg oil in my cooking - its easier than working with butter.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Eskimos have a diet very high in saturated fat

I'm not an expert on the Eskimo peoples but I think you may be mistaking Omega 3 fatty acids for saturated fat Sue

 

[Dillinger]

I really don't care whether fat is good or bad I wont be eating more than I have to as I just don't like it.

I am not interested in what anyone else eats.

Then why post ? This is 'Diabetes Discussions', where things surely get discussed?

The status quo is don't eat fat, saturated or otherwise, yet so many of us have found out that that just doesn't add up for us. Listen to your doctors all you want, but don't then say that is the only approach to be taken.

Essentially what your post and Ken's post is saying is; this is the route I take; and I'm sick to death of people challenging it. Well get out of the discussions forum then... :roll:

Dillinger

 

[cugila]

Essentially what your post and Ken's post is saying is; this is the route I take; and I'm sick to death of people challenging it. Well get out of the discussions forum then...

Dillinger.
This as you say is a discussion area, where ALL points of view are put. Mine and Sid's are just as valid as anybody elses. You don't have to agree, you can say so.

Who are you to decide who posts here or not. You suddenly become an Administrator or a Mod, keeping it quiet from us....? So we have different views to you. On this Forum we are allowed a difference of opinion, that's why here is the best Forum going. We listen to all opinions, just sometimes the clamour to do one thing and one thing only can be overwhelming.

It's not my way or the Highway......we are all allowed to voice our opinion, all allowed to differ in a civilised manner. I wouldn't presume to tell you to get out of here....that is a very arrogant stance to take !

Ken

 

[raydavies]

There seems to be a sort of blind faith in the "experts" among most "low fatters", a view they are obviously entitled to express.

Would these experts be the same ones that told us eggs would give us heart attacks? It was also the experts who told us we were all going to die from AIDS, who panicked the world with dire warnings about swine and bird flu!

I'd rather hear what the experts have to say and then check out forums such as this to find out what people with real problems, similar to my own, have discovered. Generally, these people have no vested interest and are not basing their views on research funded by drug and food manufacturers. With governments under extreme financial constraint there is unlikely to be any real research into something like saturated fat if there's nothing to market at the end of it.

Ray

 

[fergus]

Hi Zoroaster,

Yes, I agree too many carbs will cause hyperglycaemia. Once again you oversimplify the standard advice. Once again I ask you to stop it.

The standard advice is no more complex than I have said, so it's hard to see how I have oversimplified it. DUK's 'Food Choices and diabetes' puts it like this:

Diabetes mellitus is a condition in which the amount of glucose in the blood is too high because the body cannot use it properly. Glucose comes from the digestion of starchy foods such as bread, rice, potatoes, chapatis, yams and plantain, from sugar and other sweet foods, and from the liver which makes glucose.

It then continues,

Eat regular meals including starchy foods such as bread, pasta, chapatis, potatoes, rice and cereals. All starchy foods are suitable for you to eat and are naturally low in fat.
Cut down on the fat you eat, particularly saturated fats as this type of fat is linked to heart disease.

Very simple, very clear and completely bonkers for anyone with the typical diabetic conditions of hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance and malfunctioning lipid metabolism.
Just my opinion, albeit which incresing numbers of diabetics seem to share. You can discuss it, disagree with, whatever. Just don't ask me to stop it.

fergus

 

[cugila]

There seems to be a sort of blind faith in the "experts" among most "low fatters", a view they are obviously entitled to express.

Thats' right Ray.
We all take on board what is said, discussed. I restrict my intake of Eggs to no more than two a week, my choice. Doesn't matter to me how many experts tell me to eat as many as I want, which isn't the perceived wisdom by the way, unless of course you work in the egg industry.

We are all capable of making our own minds up, us 'low fatters', now why should that make anybody get all holier than thou and start telling us we are wrong. You continually see low fat and high carbs as if that automatically goes hand in hand.....not so, look around this forum. there are many who use low fat/reduced or even low carbs. Their choice for various reasons. Some just can't eat high fat foods, others just don't believe it's a good idea. Again, their choice.

I'd rather hear what the experts have to say and then check out forums such as this to find out what people with real problems, similar to my own, have discovered.

Precisely, I don't consider any forum members experts, however well meaning or knowledgeable they may be, so when one of the members tells me eat eggs, eat fat etc I take it all with a pinch of salt.....(within my RDA). They may be talking from experience, so are the real experts. The ones who cut people up, examine the clogged up arteries etc, now THEY are experts. At the sharp end.

I prefer to make my own mind up after reading and seeing all the evidence, not just some one sided view expounded by somebody who is just into selling books, or products, not dedicated to saving lives. People like my Cardiac Surgeon and others, my Endocrinologist. Now he agrees with reducing carbs, but he still tells people a healthy balanced diet without loads of fat is the way to go. He is one of the top guy's here in the West Mids....now he is someone I listen too, a real expert.

Generally, these people have no vested interest and are not basing their views on research funded by drug and food manufacturers.

Does that imply that I base my research in that way.......not so. My research is varied, independent, dispassionate and best of all, MY in depth research. That's how I make my mind up about something, not reading a book and saying WOW, that must work....I do the research and test to see if it works for me. When the numbers all start going wrong then I know it is duff research, when things are good I know I'm onto a winner. I am in the pocket of nobody !

I don't tell anybody they are wrong to low carb.....far from it. I support many on here who low carb, I just object to being told that that is the only way forward. This is NOT a low carb Forum where that is all you will get, there are alternatives which will be discussed here, there is no one way, we are all different. There are many on here who are successful using different diets. Good luck to them all. This post started with Sat Fat is innocent, I don't believe so. End of story.

You Ray, can believe what you want, your choice.

Ken