If I don't eat lots of carbs!

[Lamont D]

There was a recent post that assumed that if we eat a very low carb diet, then our brain would not function properly. We need glucose to support our mental functions but exactly how much?

After over two years eating very low carb and fasting, I don't think we need as much as the poster was believing.
Does anybody think that long term low carbing is dangerous?

Is there any real evidence of it being dangerous?

 

[Garr]

No, the body makes all the sugar it needs from protein.

 

[Zab]

A very low carb diet has been used for epileptic children for about 100 years. It helped them have less seizures. I think based on what I have personally read from these studies though, there are *some* problems for the diet, at least potentially for some children. There were the typical side effects: stomach upsets, headaches, higher LDL cholesterol readings, but there were things like development of kidney stones in children as young as 4, quite a few did develop heart problems, there was for some a sudden decline in selenium with long term adherence to the diet, even while eating foods rich in it (this led to some of them actually having heart attacks and recent study started in 2014 had this loss of selenium happen to a few adults with one other know condition, MS, diabetes, etc), however, coming off the diet for a few weeks appears to correct this issue. Long term adherence was classified as four years or more, so I DO think that is something people on this diet should have checked in on with their regular bloodwork. About the worst thing though is quite a few children stopped growing and some teenagers did not hit puberty. What that means for adults, I do not know. For quite awhile, researchers thought it was the drugs being used, but then found some children who were taken off or had never been on the drugs to start with still developed these concerns. Over the last 100 years, there have been lots of modifications made to this diet to help prevent some of this, without much success. As a side note, I would like to say there is a reason parents of epileptic children have moved towards treatments like canabis oil.
Lets be clear: I do a low carb diet myself to control my condition, though I do not go low enough to put myself into a ketogenic state. This is just information I found on the diet in the longest studied people who have been on it. Personally, I have other concerns that I think do not make me a good candidate to be on this diet in the strictest sense, though I have recommended it to others, while mentioning the possible side effects. I 100% believe that the diets set out by most diabetic associations, educators and doctors is terribly flawed and one that keeps a lot of us on medication when we do not *always* need to be. I believe lowering your carb intake reduces inflammation and allows you to be a healthier version of yourself. For myself, these days I take in 75-100 carbs a day, have normal blood sugar values (4s and 5s at fasting and post meals), seldom feel hungry, am a proper weight and have gain muscle definition that I otherwise didn't have. I feel the best I have ever in my life.
I am just not sure that long-term adherence to Keto without breaks is the best way to go, but I DO acknowledge that there are people who feel it is right for them. I think it is most important of all to listen to YOUR body.

 

[Lamont D]

A very low carb diet has been used for epileptic children for about 100 years. It helped them have less seizures. I think based on what I have personally read from these studies though, there are *some* problems for the diet, at least potentially for some children. There were the typical side effects: stomach upsets, headaches, higher LDL cholesterol readings, but there were things like development of kidney stones in children as young as 4, quite a few did develop heart problems, there was for some a sudden decline in selenium with long term adherence to the diet, even while eating foods rich in it (this led to some of them actually having heart attacks and recent study started in 2014 had this loss of selenium happen to a few adults with one other know condition, MS, diabetes, etc), however, coming off the diet for a few weeks appears to correct this issue. Long term adherence was classified as four years or more, so I DO think that is something people on this diet should have checked in on with their regular bloodwork. About the worst thing though is quite a few children stopped growing and some teenagers did not hit puberty. What that means for adults, I do not know. For quite awhile, researchers thought it was the drugs being used, but then found some children who were taken off or had never been on the drugs to start with still developed these concerns. Over the last 100 years, there have been lots of modifications made to this diet to help prevent some of this, without much success. As a side not, I would like to say there is a reason parents of epileptic children have moved towards treatments like canabis oil.
Lets be clear: I do a low carb diet myself to control my condition, though I do not go low enough to put myself into a ketogenic state. This is just information I found on the diet in the longest studied people who have been on it. Personally, I have other concerns that I think do not make me a good candidate to be on this diet in the strictest sense, though I have recommended it to others, while mentioning the possible side effects. I 100% believe that the diets set out by most diabetic associations, educators and doctors is terribly flawed and one that keeps a lot of us on medication when we do not *always* need to be. I believe lowering your carb intake reduces inflammation and allows you to be a healthier version of yourself. For myself, these days I take in 75-100 carbs a day, have normal blood sugar values (4s and 5s at fasting and post meals), seldom feel hungry, am a proper weight and have gain muscle definition that I otherwise didn't have. I feel the best I have ever in my life.
I am just not sure that long-term adherence to Keto without breaks is the best way to go, but I DO acknowledge that there are people who feel it is right for them. I think it is most important of all to listen to YOUR body.

I do think that the information is really flawed or I would be very ill if I didn't very low carb, it's the issue of how much do we really need?
Has there been research on the amount requirement or does it vary from person to person or when we work, exercise, rest, play, sleep?
I have suffered from the effects of glucose deprivation and I wouldn't wish it anyone!

 

[Zab]

I do think that the information is really flawed or I would be very ill if I didn't very low carb, it's the issue of how much do we really need?
Has there been research on the amount requirement or does it vary from person to person or when we work, exercise, rest, play, sleep?
I have suffered from the effects of glucose deprivation and I wouldn't wish it anyone!

I am not sure it is flawed, as the studies were done over the last 100 years. They simply created patterns. A lot of kids developed a lot of these issues. I think the diet *may* be flawed for some children, in general. Also, to find complete specifics is probably hard. Maybe, for example, some of these kids ate a lot more meat than anything else, thus explaining things like the kidney stones. My only real concern is the selenium levels and do think it doesn't hurt to have your doctor check in, as they were finding this to happen with adults with one other known condition too and not all the outcomes were nice. I personally do not think this most recent study was done to scare people from the diet, but was done to see if the same thing happened to adults considered unhealthier. It could be that anyone who has inflammation (or who knows what) is at risk of depleting their selenium levels, though the study was done on low-carbers. I think a lot of researchers are currently vested in ensuring this diet works.
Nosher, I cannot answer your questions. These children were on diets that were under 50 carbs a day. I think it is always really important to re-evaluate how you are feeling. Do you feel good and healthy? You probably are. Should you have your selenium tested occasionally? I think you should.

 

[ickihun]

I don't know if co-incidental but I've ended up on bisoprolol 2.5mg on lchf diet. I felt ill and dizzy. Feeling faint and weak on 30g carb. On 150g carb now.

 

[Brunneria]

@Zab could you please reference that recent 2014 study you mentioned?
I would love to read it.

And those child studies you mentioned, are they the early keto diets for epileptic children? The ones involving huge amounts of liquified egg? No way were they the kind of well formulated low carb diet that research has since shown to be advisable.

I agree with you that we should all do our own research, but it would really help if you could give us enough information to be able to see the studies you are talking about.

 

[Zab]

@Zab could you please reference that recent 2014 study you mentioned?
I would love to read it.

And those child studies you mentioned, are they the early keto diets for epileptic children? The ones involving huge amounts of liquified egg? No way were they the kind of well formulated low carb diet that research has since shown to be advisable.

I agree with you that we should all do our own research, but it would really help if you could give us enough information to be able to see the studies you are talking about.

It was included in the last thread where we discussed this and I gave you a link to a page that had a lot of the studies I had read and some I had not (I mostly read through my university and college libraries, so it is not always easy to find the information on the regular internet in full). You sort of blew me off The list covered about 40 studies and included benefits and risks from the diet. I will look back through my notifications and grab the link for you again. It is not a fast read by any means, but nothing that should take you longer either. They mostly summarised a bunch of the studies and since you will get the names of the researchers etc, you can look further into any one of them you want..... hold on..... let me go grab it for you again

 

[Zab]

@Zab could you please reference that recent 2014 study you mentioned?
I would love to read it.

And those child studies you mentioned, are they the early keto diets for epileptic children? The ones involving huge amounts of liquified egg? No way were they the kind of well formulated low carb diet that research has since shown to be advisable.

I agree with you that we should all do our own research, but it would really help if you could give us enough information to be able to see the studies you are talking about.

http://www.thepaleomom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ketogenic-Diet-Literature-Review.pdf

You will get a list of the studies first. Keep scrolling and they will give you some information about them all. Then you will also have the information to delve deeper and perhaps even find some of these studies in their entirety. Sorry I cannot give everyone access to my library. I think my old schools would frown on that, plus then you would know my passcode to every part of my life on the internets HAHAHAHA
Again, as we spoke in the other thread, I am not trying to dissuade people from their diet. I am just giving you some information to ensure your better health by mentioning some things you may want to check in on occasionally, when you are getting bloodwork done anyway.

 

[Lamont D]

I am not sure it is flawed, as the studies were done over the last 100 years. They simply created patterns. A lot of kids developed a lot of these issues. I think the diet *may* be flawed for some children, in general. Also, to find complete specifics is probably hard. Maybe, for example, some of these kids ate a lot more meat than anything else, thus explaining things like the kidney stones. My only real concern is the selenium levels and do think it doesn't hurt to have your doctor check in, as they were finding this to happen with adults with one other known condition too and not all the outcomes were nice. I personally do not think this most recent study was done to scare people from the diet, but was done to see if the same thing happened to adults considered unhealthier. It could be that anyone who has inflammation (or who knows what) is at risk of depleting their selenium levels, though the study was done on low-carbers. I think a lot of researchers are currently vested in ensuring this diet works.
Nosher, I cannot answer your questions. These children were on diets that were under 50 carbs a day. I think it is always really important to re-evaluate how you are feeling. Do you feel good and healthy? You probably are. Should you have your selenium tested occasionally? I think you should.

Hi @Zab
I was referring to the usual gp/dsn/ dietician advice wheeled out that I was given, which made me very ill.
Sorry, if the post threw you.
Yes, I do feel much better, fitter, healthy, than I have since my early thirties.
The transformation to really good energy levels and not feeling tired and all the other symptoms that was terrible.

 

[Brunneria]

@Zab Thanks for the link.
If you want to give people info, then it would help if you actually did give them the info.

I read the relevant studies you mentioned last time (re the selenium) and didn't feel they justified the comments you made.

It will be interesting to see if these do. Can you name the study in question? Seems rather vague to just reference 2014, but hopefully there won't be too many studies listed in you document link. This is why accurate references are useful.

 

[Zab]

@Zab could you please reference that recent 2014 study you mentioned?
I would love to read it.

And those child studies you mentioned, are they the early keto diets for epileptic children? The ones involving huge amounts of liquified egg? No way were they the kind of well formulated low carb diet that research has since shown to be advisable.

I agree with you that we should all do our own research, but it would really help if you could give us enough information to be able to see the studies you are talking about.

Also, I agree a liquid diet egg may not be a good idea....nor does it sound appealing. However, a lot of the stuff continues to happen to present day with children on the diet. I did mention it has been modified plenty of times to find the 'right' way, but I think it is often forgotten everyone is a little *different* . Beyond my personal selenium concern, I cannot be sure that things like the not growing or hitting puberty would have any effect on an adult body nor really have any insights on to why some children on this diet had this happen to them....but it isn't cool.
There are no doubts there are benefits to this diet. It lowers the inflammation that has helped people deal with things like epilepsy. diabetes, psoriasis, MS to name a few. But there are some problems that should not be entirely over-looked either.

 

[AndBreathe]

I don't know if co-incidental but I've ended up on bisoprolol 2.5mg on lchf diet. I felt ill and dizzy. Feeling faint and weak on 30g carb. On 150g carb now.

My BP has improved significantly since I reduced my carbs, and weight trimmed up. I think many folks find similarly.

Ickihun, are you aware of the suggested potential side effects? I'm thinking about the mention of diabetes on here: https://www.drugs.com/bisoprolol.html I'm not trying to discourage you from taking the medication or anything else for that matter, just bringing it to your attention.

 

[Zab]

Hi @Zab
I was referring to the usual gp/dsn/ dietician advice wheeled out that I was given, which made me very ill.
Sorry, if the post threw you.
Yes, I do feel much better, fitter, healthy, than I have since my early thirties.
The transformation to really good energy levels and not feeling tired and all the other symptoms that was terrible.

I did not experience this transformation period, but I have never put myself fully into a Keto state either. I felt pretty good from day one, when I decided to start ignoring the basic diabetic diet. While I occasionally still take in things like wild rices, a slice of well-made bread or pasta, I am very careful with more portions...personally, I do not think (least) unrefined things are a problem. I think a lot of people do not understand the serving size they should have. It is really easy to eat a whole plate of pasta Most of my carb intake daily comes from natural foods: mostly vegetables, some fruit...and a piece or two of very dark chocolate.

 

[Zab]

@Zab Thanks for the link.
If you want to give people info, then it would help if you actually did give them the info.

I read the relevant studies you mentioned last time (re the selenium) and didn't feel they justified the comments you made.

It will be interesting to see if these do. Can you name the study in question? Seems rather vague to just reference 2014, but hopefully there won't be too many studies listed in you document link. This is why accurate references are useful.

A few of the studies I read in there deal with the selenium and were some of the studies I have read in full, so my best idea for you is to actually look up the particular studies mentioned there. Again, this is not to scare people, but it does appear there are some issues for some people when adhering long-term. Checking in on your selenium levels certainly doesn't *hurt* you to ensure your best health. The most recent study is in there somewhere. Have fun reading it all so you can really get a good overview into what these children went through.
While you are re-looking at these studies again, remember they have only just begun to think in terms of the selenium, and that some of the results from the earlier testing may have had the same issues, they just were not looking into this at that time. I look for patterns over the course, not just the one study.
I think it is important to read over and get to know the diet you chose with these studies. It was designed for these children and they have been the longest studied on this diet. Most Keto studies right now are very short-term, the majority over a 6 month period, but these children give us a much broader look into the diet.

 

[Lamont D]

Having had a quick look through the file and its very enlightening.
There is always something that stands out.
And it has to do with how personal our diets are to us.
If I have learnt anything, it is that low carb or ketogenic means different things to different people. And their tastes are different especially in choice.
Even your past history and environment affects who we are and what and how we eat!
The ketogenic diets the kids were having were too strict on what they could eat.
My ketogenic diet is completely different to anybody else who is on one. How much fresh meat we have, how much full fat and amount is paramount.
Because I eat every three hours or so, my plate size is small compared to someone who may have only three meals a day.
My fasting hours are different to anybody else.
My intolerance is different, how I get my necessary vitamins and so on.
My RH tolerance Is different to a T2, T1, 3c diabetic.

I also love my chocolate, the darker the better, with a few berries and full fat yoghurt!

 

[Brunneria]

A few of the studies I read in there deal with the selenium and were some of the studies I have read in full, so my best idea for you is to actually look up the particular studies mentioned there. Again, this is not to scare people, but it does appear there are some issues for some people when adhering long-term. Checking in on your selenium levels certainly doesn't *hurt* you to ensure your best health. The most recent study is in there somewhere. Have fun reading it all so you can really get a good overview into what these children went through.
While you are re-looking at these studies again, remember they have only just begun to think in terms of the selenium, and that some of the results from the earlier testing may have had the same issues, they just were not looking into this at that time. I look for patterns over the course, not just the one study.
I think it is important to read over and get to know the diet you chose with these studies. It was designed for these children and they have been the longest studied on this diet. Most Keto studies right now are very short-term, the majority over a 6 month period, but these children give us a much broader look into the diet.

I think you are missing my point.
It is not up to me to trawl through a vague, blog sourced document listing a range of studies and myriad different sub-subjects. Why on earth would I slog through several studies looking for one thing you may have mis remembered, or misquoted? If you have misremembered or misquoted, then I may not even recognise it if I see it.

You brought up the issues, without adequate references, and now you aren't willing to actually specify which is the source of your 'information'? Plus, apparently your opinion is based on other, currently inaccessible studies, which you are unable to name.

As I mentioned in our previous discussion, I am open to any way of eating having pitfalls, but hearsay on the internet is either anecdote, scaremongering, wishful thinking or gossip. That is why accurate references are so valuable.

I'm also totally open to you having an opinion on this. I even agree with you that keto eating has not been studied for long enough periods to 'prove' its safety. But you will notice that I am not throwing out vague references to imply that my opinion is anything more than personal speculation.

 

[azure]

Please can we keep this discussion pleasant. If there are differences of opinion, then it would be helpful if both sides could provide comparable evidence.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Based on my experience, I don't need carbs for proper brain function, although my friends might disagree.

 

[Indy51]

The dietitian who gave this talk about things to watch out for and possible side effects (which can be overcome by the judicious use of supplements and/or medication) specialises in tailoring the diet for children: