Type 2 LCD, Fasting and Blood Glucose Levels

[CherryAA]

Hi everyone.

I'm new here, A few salient facts.
Was diagnosed 18 August 2016 HBaC1 92 or 10.3% ( = ave glucose 14.3/% ) This appointment was triggered by a following a fasting glucose reading of 18.4.
I have buried my head in the sand on this for a long time, so the diagnosis wasn't a surprise.

I have had 2 bouts of cellulitis 2005 and 2013, and a detached retina 2014. My last blood sugar prior to diagnosis was in May 2014 at 8.0 non fasting which I was told was "Normal".

In my own opinion I've probably been un-diagnosed diabetic since at least 2005 and most probably at least prediabetic when my high blood pressure was diagnosed 20 years ago. My blood pressure meds have kept me around 120-130 over 80/90 range over the years. I'm not really into sweet things, - but faithfully tried to be "low fat" for years so avoided most animal fats and nuts and probably did untold damage as a result.

Having read up on it first before my bloods appointment I refused any medication and instead embarked on a LCF diet. So far down from 114 kg to 104 kg ( I started dieting 1 August, but low fat until 18 August - then Low Carb after). I did lose 30 kilo aged about 30 using low fat method but put it all back. I'm now 58 yrs old and female.

My fasting morning glucose has come down from that initial 18.4 to around 8- 9 now. Since the day I started LCF the highest reading I have ever seen was 14.1 post prandial. for a few days it hovered around a narrow range of 7.5 to 10. Morning readings around 9.

I guess I was getting a bit complacement that this was all working, enough to include 10g of flour in a recipe on 2 consecutive days ( all measured - my total calories on each day being circa 1000, made up 20% carbs, 60-70% fat balance protein) . The result was two days of morning 7 range 7-9, became 2 days of opening 9 range 9-11. I am clearly very carbohydrate intolerant.

I've been in ketosis for a couple of weeks now and not really feeling any hunger. That in turn leads me to think maybe fasting would be useful because I don't really think about food at all at the moment and clearly avoiding carbs altogether seems like it might be beneficial to me.

Sorry for the length - but I wanted to get the actual facts down.

- re Fasting

Day 1 fast - opening bloods 8.9 - carried on fasting 11.6 panicked a bit went for a walk ( 30 mins) improved to 9.9 - so had a tiny meal ( 200 cals ) back up again to 11 - before dropping to a new low of 6.5 in the evening and then gradually rising until bed 10.5 ( total calories about 400 )
.Day 2 fast - opening bloods 8.1 - which then continued to go up as the fast continued at hourly intervals 10.1, 11.1, 12.6 .

This time I decided to go for a walk ( circa 2 miles and a swim 1 hour) and after it dropped to 7.8 and is now gradually going up again. ( walkies soon! ) (total calories around 200 10g almond plus 2 oxo cubes in hot water for the salt. )

So - Currently it seems the act of fasting causes a steadily rising blood sugar until I interrupt it with exercise.
Yesterday 8.9-11.6 before exercise
Today 8.1- 12.6 before exercise .

I'm trying to figure out if this means my blood sugar would just carry on going up infinitum without the exercise . Clearly Fasting cannot be giving me glucose to make my blood sugar increase, so it must be being released through the ketosis .

Does anyone have any experience on what I should expect to happen if I continue this fast, and for that matter at what point it should be imperative to take exercise if that is the way to bring my blood sugars down . The guys reporting on fasting in general have lower readings than me, so its hard to see a comparison.

Thanks a lot for any responses.

 

[chalup]

The increased glucose is coming from your liver. It manufactures glucose and stores it until needed. I think if you keep the fasting and low carb up it will use up those stores and you will see a drop in BG. I am not a faster, it is what I understand from reading threads on here. @bulkbiker might have better info for you.

 

[Brunneria]

I agree with Chalup.

Couple of questions.

Are you sure you are in ketosis? I wouldn't be in those circumstances. I need less than 20% carbs and lower glucose reserves than that to get ketone readings. But you may be, because our bodies all work slightly differently.

However, I suggest that if you are carrying enough glucose reserves to get such blood glucose rises when fasting and exercising, then you haven't yet switched to fat as the main fuel.

Your numbers suggest that you have made excellent process already, both with improved bg and weight loss. Huge strides. Very impressive. I am all in favour of fasting (do it myself) but I would urge you to take this more steadily and consider whether you need to introduce fasting at this point.

Your D may date back over 10 years. That is a looooong time for your body to have endured raised blood glucose and to have established a functioning status quo. Not ideal, but it kept things together for you, and probably had to work hard to do so.

One of its coping mechanisms will have been keeping a big store of glycogen (glucose) in the liver ready for emergencies (like no food for a while).

In your place, I would ease off with the fasting for a while. Why subject your body to more stress and greater change than necessary. Wait and see how the low carbing and weight loss goes, watch to see what happens to your fasting blood glucose (it is often the last thing to respond). Give it time and space to adapt. Let it adjust to the new 'normal'.

If you feel well, your bg is improving, and you continue to lose weight (if desired), then save Fasting for when the weight loss plateaus.

 

[bulkbiker]

Wow.. you are trying to do an awful lot all at once..
Personally when was diagnosed I concentrated on getting my blood sugars down to a more reasonable level by LCHF before starting fasting. You seem to have had good responses there so maybe continue that for a month or two. Once your levels come down maybe try fasting again. My dawn phenomenon took the longest to get under control. Let your body get used to being fat fuelled and then as @Brunneria says give fasting another go.
Hope that helps a bit.
Regards
Mark

 

[figgywiggy]

Hi. I think fasting seems to affect everyone differently by the looks of it. I do 17/7 fasting which seems to work for me. I have a fasting bg of around 8.2 on rising. I then run 3/4 miles and it still reads the same when I get back. I eat breakfast around 10.30 and by then it has fallen to low 6s. I finish eating at 5.30 in the evening. I am now in pre-diabetes but it has taken two years of experimenting to get there. 5/2 did not work for me.

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks everyone,

I had already been following a strict 1200 calorie a day "traditional " diet for two weeks before my medical appointment , and testing for ketones during that period, all negative on the sticks , in fact it was the fact that I didn't seem to be able to get near ketosis that led me to looking into low carb in the first place.

The bloods that showed the HbaC1 test actually said I had was already in slight ketosis by that stage before I had even begun the low carb diet. In terms of how that could be ketotic I am still sticking to 1200 calories or less as well.

About three days after starting on the low carb regime all , the ketosis sticks started turning pink, not just a bit but well into the 3/4 th levels on the chart. They have remained so for the last 20 days, though the measurements are starting to be less strong now in the last couple of days. whilst I've been fasting.

From what I read on the forum somewhere, I can expect the level of ketones in my urea to go down when I've reached some kind of ketocic nirvana and I should really be testing ketones via a blood meter instead of sticks. I cannot find anywhere to buy one. Can anyone point me in the direction of who sells them? they don't seem to be on amazon.

The fasting wasn't really a deliberate strategy, just that on 20% or less carbs, and about 1000 calories I don't seem to feel hungry so when I realised that had stretched out to about 15 hours I thought - hell why bother today. I'd had maybe 150 calories yesterday (oxo cubes and half a dozen almonds) walked a couple of miles, went swimming, then went to the theatre and decided to walk home - another couple of miles - half way home I went into a takeaway selling chicken - thinking maybe I will have something - but standing at the counter I realised I just don't feel hungry so why bother ?

Every single day on a low fat diet was a struggle to avoid the fridge - its just so liberating to not feel the need to eat. I went to bed with 10g Macadamia nuts instead.

I too don't understand how I can be ketocic AND getting blood sugar increases on fasting - hence the question. Though if my pancreas is emptying itself of sugars, regardless of the mechanism that must be a good thing. I guess for now I'll just keep going i.e. eating when I feel like it, but sticking to 1200 a day or less and if it turns out that day is more or less a fasting day so be it. I don't know about anyone else but when I'm in the zone I can do anything on a diet - when I'm not in the mood its hopeless. I figure take advantage of being in the zone while I still am !

 

[Indy51]

Here is one of the dual BG/ketone meters:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/FREESTYLE-...d=1473499983&sr=8-2&keywords=freestyle+optium

The strips are very expensive though.

You might find it more cost effective to purchase a Ketonix breath tester:
https://www.ketonix.com/index.php?lang=en

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks for this the ketonix breath tester gets bad reviews for the software - doe anyone have experience of these actually working?

 

[Indy51]

I think there is a thread on the forum by @Robbity about her experience.

 

[bulkbiker]

Thanks everyone,



From what I read on the forum somewhere, I can expect the level of ketones in my urea to go down when I've reached some kind of ketocic nirvana and I should really be testing ketones via a blood meter instead of sticks. I cannot find anywhere to buy one. Can anyone point me in the direction of who sells them? they don't seem to be on amazon.


I too don't understand how I can be ketocic AND getting blood sugar increases on fasting - hence the question. Though if my pancreas is emptying itself of sugars, regardless of the mechanism that must be a good thing. I guess for now I'll just keep going i.e. eating when I feel like it, but sticking to 1200 a day or less and if it turns out that day is more or less a fasting day so be it. I don't know about anyone else but when I'm in the zone I can do anything on a diet - when I'm not in the mood its hopeless. I figure take advantage of being in the zone while I still am !

I bought myself a Glucomen LX plus meter which does ketones and blood glucose although still use my trusty SD Codefree for blood glucose readings. The price of the ketone strips is outrageous. £25.83 for 10 which makes testing very expensive so I limit myself to one per day. I think the pee strips only work at the beginning because once you are fat adapted your body is using the ketones for fuel then there aren't any expelled in the urine (at least I think that's what I read). Your blood sugar may indeed be rising as your liver pumps out its glucose but I'm no medical expert so don't take my word for it.
Have you read "The Obesity Code" by Dr Jason Fung? or checked out his website
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com
There are also a whole load of videos by him on you tube which explain (I think) pretty well what is happening when we get fat/diabetes/fast. He makes a lot of sense to me and backs up his findings by speaking to real patients he has helped.
I have never really worried about calories as I try to only eat once or at most twice a day so just have what I fancy (in a ultra low carb high fat way).
You might be interested in the 2ketodudes podcasts, website and Facebook page. They seem a very friendly bunch and have some great info on their site. Their language is quite fruity sometimes (which I heartily approve of!). Makes for entertaining reading and listening and they appear to know just about everything about ketosis and ketogenic diets in general. I have found their stuff almost as useful as this site.
God luck anyway and best regards
Mark

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks for this Mark, You've obviously made great progress yourself,
I had thought I would need to lose a lot of weight to get in the right glucose range but clearly whilst I do need to lose lot of weight to make any progress but it seems that a very strict low carb might be acheivable in the short term which would be great . I could kick myself for letting it get this far ! it was actually my young lodger who sent me off to for the appointment ( with me fighting all the way ) having moaned daily for a month that I fall asleep too easily when I sit down after a meal.

I have ordered Fung's books and watched two of his online videos. I can see though that just eating a couple of times a day could be possible on this kind of diet, so at that stage the actual calories become quite small anyway. For me about 300 calories fills me up pretty much ( 2 egg omelette, 10g goose fat, mushroom, onion, pepper) tastes glorious ! All those wasted years eating rabbit food !

 

[CherryAA]

People might be interested in this website.
https://www.supertracker.usda.gov/bwp/index.html

Its a weight tracker , though it also takes into consideration the initial fast weight loss and the slow down after the first few days. I stuck the 114kg in on day one. it said stick to 1000 calories and you will be in the range 104 -106.2 by day 41. I use that as my target calories, but now low carb high fat. I have achieved the 1000 calorie average over the period and I am currently exactly the low end number it predicted 104 kg .

 

[CherryAA]

Well I carried on going, trying to leave as long as I can between meals, though so far that has only been about 18 hours before my desire to be part of a world that eats, overrides my desire to beat this thing fast.. I have still stuck rigidly to low carb, and not too many calories and today I got my first reading under 6. Still no drugs, I'm really pleased !

 

[bulkbiker]

Well I carried on going, trying to leave as long as I can between meals, though so far that has only been about 18 hours before my desire to be part of a world that eats, overrides my desire to beat this thing fast.. I have still stuck rigidly to low carb, and not too many calories and today I got my first reading under 6. Still no drugs, I'm really pleased !

The more your body get used to low carb the less hungry you should feel... maybe up the fats a bit if you are getting pangs.