Fasting Insulin levels

[Applenerd81]

Hi!

I've recently taking up extended water fasting having previously gone though low carb > lchf > keto > intermittent fasting in a bid to lose stubborn body fat whilst maintaining good bg control.

I have found that on longer fasts (longer than 24 hrs) I can do without Lantus (usually 18-24iu per day) and suffice on 2-3 iu of Humalog during the day (mostly for dawn phenomenon).

My question is, is this normal?? I always thought my basal needs would be much higher (than 2-3iu per day at least anyway!)

As soon as I break my fasts the basal requirement shoots back up to 18 units again.

I wonder if my pancreas is still working (although a recent cpeptide test has said otherwise)?

 

[GrantGam]

I find that when I severely limit my carbs, my basal requirements drop dramatically. Almost as much as 80%.

I think all you're seeing is reduced insulin needs for a short period (the fasting period). Your prior 18-24u Lantus is probably doing enough to get you by for your fast. I'm assuming you've not fasted a great deal past the 24 hour mark?

I'd imagine that if you carried on without food or basal insulin past the 48 hour mark; you'd see your BG start to rapidly increase as any remnants of basal insulin from your last injection are used up. I wouldn't recommend that btw, for obvious reasons.

Grant

 

[Applenerd81]

96hrs was my longest (Sunday night to Thursday night), spent most of the 36 hrs onwards very low even with only 6iu of Lantus. Still rises on waking and during a brisk lunch time walk. It was a nice thought, but I still think I need 2-4 units in total a day minimum.

 

[GrantGam]

Wow 96 hours!

I guess it's normal to see a large reduction in insulin requirements when cutting back on the carbs. So I'd imagine even more so when fasting.

Basal and bolus insulins are the same concentrations (basal just released more slowly). So 4u of QA daily when fasting vs 24u of Lantus on a normal day, could roughly translate to a reduction of around 83%?

Maths was never my strong point, but if I'm right in what I've just said then you're not far off my basal reductions when knocking the carbs right back.

I've never fastest before though and don't fancy the 96hr challenge

What were the results of your last c-peptide test?

@tim2000s should be able to provide you with a concrete answer for your query, he's very clued up with insulin requirements, etc.

Cheers,
Grant

 

[Kristin251]

Protein can raise bs so if your not eating protein or carbs your insulin requirements could be much less. I take 1-2 units lantus but as you said, that darn DP. I need some bolus with food and a little about 3 hours later in the morning . I eat a small very high fat low carb and protein BF and I still get a 20-30 spike but it doesn't start going up until after at least 1 hour. Then it jumps when I get moving. I cannot fast through BF. Makes it much worse. I could totally skip lunch and not sure about dinner.. I like food too much.

 

[Applenerd81]

I broke my fast early yesterday for dinner with the family (still kept low carb but was quiet a lot of protein): took 8 iu of lantus too (instead of normal 18 which I have when eating lchf) blood sugars where pretty good but crept up overnight (9mmol this morning). Looks like even one meal a day with protein needs me to go back to usual basal levels!
I'm experimenting with fasting to try and shift some "stubborn" body fat, once in ketosis the hunger isn't too bad, a cup of Bovril usually does the trick! I too love food, as does my big belly haha! I read it's always the last 10lbs that's hardest...

Moving forward will probably keep experimenting with 2-4 days fasting a week, closely monitoring bg, ketones, the scales and tape measure!

 

[Applenerd81]

Wow 96 hours!

I guess it's normal to see a large reduction in insulin requirements when cutting back on the carbs. So I'd imagine even more so when fasting.

Basal and bolus insulins are the same concentrations (basal just released more slowly). So 4u of QA daily when fasting vs 24u of Lantus on a normal day, could roughly translate to a reduction of around 83%?

Maths was never my strong point, but if I'm right in what I've just said then you're not far off my basal reductions when knocking the carbs right back.

I've never fastest before though and don't fancy the 96hr challenge

What were the results of your last c-peptide test?

@tim2000s should be able to provide you with a concrete answer for your query, he's very clued up with insulin requirements, etc.

Cheers,
Grant

Regarding c-peptide I don't recall the exact figures, but remember the consultant saying from the test it didn't look like there was any insulin being produced.

Even low carb & IF I still need 16-18 iu of basal a day, I literally have to stop eating to drop basal further! Supposedly even losing a small amount of organ fat can improved the body's hormonal sensitivity dramatically; I was hoping that if there was any insulin being produced I could somehow improve my own insulin sensitivity further and eventually wean off the lantus... wishful thinking I know!

Back to the drawing board!

 

[GrantGam]

Regarding c-peptide I don't recall the exact figures, but remember the consultant saying from the test it didn't look like there was any insulin being produced.

Even low carb & IF I still need 16-18 iu of basal a day, I literally have to stop eating to drop basal further! Supposedly even losing a small amount of organ fat can improved the body's hormonal sensitivity dramatically; I was hoping that if there was any insulin being produced I could somehow improve my own insulin sensitivity further and eventually wean off the lantus... wishful thinking I know!

Back to the drawing board!

I initially had around a 60% drop in basal requirements when knocking back the carbs. This drop was then increased a good bit with shifting some body fat.

I suppose the hard and fast of it is that regardless of quantities, you'll always need both basal and bolus as a T1D. Weight loss, diet and exercise will help to reduce requirements and increase sensitivity but never eliminate the need for insulin.

Grant

 

[Kristin251]

I broke my fast early yesterday for dinner with the family (still kept low carb but was quiet a lot of protein): took 8 iu of lantus too (instead of normal 18 which I have when eating lchf) blood sugars where pretty good but crept up overnight (9mmol this morning). Looks like even one meal a day with protein needs me to go back to usual basal levels!
I'm experimenting with fasting to try and shift some "stubborn" body fat, once in ketosis the hunger isn't too bad, a cup of Bovril usually does the trick! I too love food, as does my big belly haha! I read it's always the last 10lbs that's hardest...

Moving forward will probably keep experimenting with 2-4 days fasting a week, closely monitoring bg, ketones, the scales and tape measure!

Yes protein will raise some of us, it certainly does me. Generally it is hours later especially the fattier it is. If I eat more than 3 oz at a time I need to split boluses. I also need to keep my carbs under 20 a day or I gain weight. How many carbs are you eating a day? Do you eat any dairy? That can cause a major stall of some people.

The Rosedale Diet explains the effect of protein and it turning to bs. He advised no more than 3 oz at a time. ( also involves the mTOR pathway). When I was having trouble with protein raising me I tried his method and it worked like a charm. I can stay flat now with low doses of insulin and not needing to split boluses. I prefer the smalll low cal meals over fasting. Bs stays flatter and I get to eat three times instead of one! HA! Maybe you could try splitting your normal dinner or lunch and eat half at dinner and half at lunch and use a slightly longer eating window. Or eat a light BF fast through lunch until dinner?lots of options.
How low are your carbs is the big question? And what kind of carbs are they?

 

[Applenerd81]

Yes protein will raise some of us, it certainly does me. Generally it is hours later especially the fattier it is. If I eat more than 3 oz at a time I need to split boluses. I also need to keep my carbs under 20 a day or I gain weight. How many carbs are you eating a day? Do you eat any dairy? That can cause a major stall of some people.

The Rosedale Diet explains the effect of protein and it turning to bs. He advised no more than 3 oz at a time. ( also involves the mTOR pathway). When I was having trouble with protein raising me I tried his method and it worked like a charm. I can stay flat now with low doses of insulin and not needing to split boluses. I prefer the smalll low cal meals over fasting. Bs stays flatter and I get to eat three times instead of one! HA! Maybe you could try splitting your normal dinner or lunch and eat half at dinner and half at lunch and use a slightly longer eating window. Or eat a light BF fast through lunch until dinner?lots of options.
How low are your carbs is the big question? And what kind of carbs are they?

3oz is 85g of protein, which is around my daily total protein intake! That would be quiet a lot (for me), even 40g requires me to bolus 2 units.

At once a day I would each reasonably low calorie, any carbs I do eat tend to be incidental from onions/peppers/tomatoes etc anything from 0-80g per day but usually at the lower end. No intentional carbs such as rice bread, root veg, pulses etc. I am amazed at how little/no food I've managed on!

 

[Applenerd81]

I initially had around a 60% drop in basal requirements when knocking back the carbs. This drop was then increased a good bit with shifting some body fat.

I suppose the hard and fast of it is that regardless of quantities, you'll always need both basal and bolus as a T1D. Weight loss, diet and exercise will help to reduce requirements and increase sensitivity but never eliminate the need for insulin.

Grant

I am type 3c which is as a result of a partial pancreatectomy: slightly different to T1 (but still treated with insulin), some t3c can produce small amounts depending on how much of the organ was removed. I'm still amazed I got through an entire day with no basal and 3 units of humalog only whilst still having reasonably smooth bg!

 

[Kristin251]

3oz is 85g of protein, which is around my daily total protein intake! That would be quiet a lot (for me), even 40g requires me to bolus 2 units.

At once a day I would each reasonably low calorie, any carbs I do eat tend to be incidental from onions/peppers/tomatoes etc anything from 0-80g per day but usually at the lower end. No intentional carbs such as rice bread, root veg, pulses etc. I am amazed at how little/no food I've managed on!

I eat 30-40 g pure protein a day which equates to about 4-5 oz. 3 oz is roughly 21 g pure protein. I could never eat 85 g a day, that's about 12 oz. An oz of protein is roughly 7 g. Low fat like white chicken or fish is closer to 8 g per ounce. I still weigh my protein. Usually 10 -15 g per meal. ( 1.5-2 oz) It's confusing I know. I would gain tons of weight on 80 g carbs.
I hear you on the less food. I actually feel better with less. Quality over quantity. The more I eat the hungrier I am. This includes all macros.

 

[GrantGam]

I am type 3c which is as a result of a partial pancreatectomy: slightly different to T1 (but still treated with insulin), some t3c can produce small amounts depending on how much of the organ was removed. I'm still amazed I got through an entire day with no basal and 3 units of humalog only whilst still having reasonably smooth bg!

It may be worth changing your profile info then as it says that you are a Type 1 diabetic. It also says that you are using a pump yet you've told me you are taking Lantus as a basal insulin?

Completing your profile information properly/keeping it up to date, will help other forum members tailor their answers to you correctly.

If you have some of your pancreas left, you may still be making some insulin (as you've said).

Grant

 

[Applenerd81]

I eat 30-40 g pure protein a day which equates to about 4-5 oz. 3 oz is roughly 21 g pure protein. I could never eat 85 g a day, that's about 12 oz. An oz of protein is roughly 7 g. Low fat like white chicken or fish is closer to 8 g per ounce. I still weigh my protein. Usually 10 -15 g per meal. ( 1.5-2 oz) It's confusing I know. I would gain tons of weight on 80 g carbs.
I hear you on the less food. I actually feel better with less. Quality over quantity. The more I eat the hungrier I am. This includes all macros.

I am confused at your use of units, I take it you mean ounces of meat, not ounces of protein?

12oz protein - 340g protein

12oz steak - 80 ish g of protein

 

[Applenerd81]

It may be worth changing your profile info then as it says that you are a Type 1 diabetic. It also says that you are using a pump yet you've told me you are taking Lantus as a basal insulin?

Completing your profile information properly/keeping it up to date, will help other forum members tailor their answers to you correctly.

If you have some of your pancreas left, you may still be making some insulin (as you've said).

Grant

Thanks Grant, I am sure I did this before, will check and update

 

[GrantGam]

Thanks Grant, I am sure I did this before, will check and update

No problem

 

[Kristin251]

I am confused at your use of units, I take it you mean ounces of meat, not ounces of protein?

12oz protein - 340g protein

12oz steak - 80 ish g of protein

There is roughly/ average of 7 G protein per ounce of meat / fish. So if you weigh 3 oz of meat/ fish it would be about 21 G protein depending on the source. Lean red meat and white chicken and turkey are 8-8.5 G protein per ounce of meat.
I eat one thin slice deli turkey at BF , 1/2 oz, lunch I eat 10 G protein (1.5 oz) and dinner 2 oz (15 G protein)

Correct 12 oz steak is roughly 80 G protein. I eat less than 1/2 of that divided over 3 meals.

Make sense? Or am I still saying it wrong? Grams of protein and G of meat are two different things.

 

[Applenerd81]

There is roughly/ average of 7 G protein per ounce of meat / fish. So if you weigh 3 oz of meat/ fish it would be about 21 G protein depending on the source. Lean red meat and white chicken and turkey are 8-8.5 G protein per ounce of meat.
I eat one thin slice deli turkey at BF , 1/2 oz, lunch I eat 10 G protein (1.5 oz) and dinner 2 oz (15 G protein)

Correct 12 oz steak is roughly 80 G protein. I eat less than 1/2 of that divided over 3 meals.

Make sense? Or am I still saying it wrong? Grams of protein and G of meat are two different things.

Yes it does now, it sounded (in your first post) like you where talking ounces of protein when in fact you where talking ounces of meat.

 

[Etty]

Would it help to use the terms "protein food" and "protein". Protein foods would include meat, eggs, cheese etc, foods that contain a significant amount of protein. You can look up the amount of protein per 100 grams of each protein food (e.g. beef) by 1) looking on the back of packets (first column in the nutrition box), or 2) look at a website such as tesco groceries, search for ham or whatever, and it will tell you the % of protein per 100g of ham. I find different types of meat, cheese etc. can vary, but you can develop your own list of your usuals.