Is a Atkins Diet Dangerous?

[phoenix]

Oh dear, they don't seem to have produced a UK edition. They and the Daily Mail, haven't realised that carb lists in the UK and Europe are already net and fibre is listed separately anyway. Most of us also don't use US measuring cups or weigh in ozs as used in the recipes either.

New Atkins thinks in terms of 'net carbs', which you calculate by taking total carbs (in grams) minus fibre (in grams).
The idea is that because fibre is indigestible and so doesn't impact your blood sugar levels you can subtract the number of grams of dietary fibre from the total number of carbohydrate grams in any food, to find its true net carb value.

Cooked green beans, for example, may contain 4.9g of carbohydrate per half cup, but 2g of that is fibre, so the net carbohydrate value is 2.9g. Lettuce is 1.4g of carbohydrate per cup, but more than half of that (1g) is fibre.

 

[jopar]

The revamp of the Atikins says a lot in deed, or am I yet another cynical individual, after all doesn’t matter whether you flogging a factory made meat pie or a diet plan... You in it for the money nothing more...

One danger of Atkins diet and for many weight lose diets, is that it can lead to yo-yo dieting, where weight is successfully lost, but because the diet plan is difficult to stick to or once the weight has been lost you return to back to previous eating practices, and find yourself back to square one!

How many times I have seen members on this site, who decided to look at extreme low carbing again, say I tied Atkins diet when it first came out, or in the past with great success etc etc... It’s obviously that they’ve stuck to the maintenance plan but had returned to their previous eating habits; otherwise they wouldn’t have had to look at losing weight again! So one must then assume that if the failed either short or long term, what is their realistic chance of maintaining the diet for evermore... Even with the added knowledge of diabetes may not be enough when the going gets tough, then you’ve got to consider is this yo-yoing more harmful over the long run??? My bet would be yes, due to the fact of the lower or no medication involved, as when fallen off the wagon, the blood glucose will shoot up much quicker, and then climbing back on drops back into the boots, and this has to be more damaging to the diabetic, than a steady slightly higher tight control..

But there again I could just be cynical!!!!

 

[graham64]

The 130g of carbs has come from research that shows this is the minimum to prevent ketosis. We do not have RDAs in the Uk but a report published in 1991 sets out Dietary Reference Values for all age groups - I do not have a copy at home but will look at in work as there are some references in it. The DRVs are under review.

Now as far the ketogenic diet for epilepsy is concerned I had my current issue of the journal of Human nutrition yesterday and there is a review paper about it - how strange.

The numbers in the Uk are very small - around 150 in the UK. They take up alot of dietetic hours and that is probably why they are not used widely. They classically consist of 90% fat, with carbs at 10-20g and protein making up the rest. Generally the pts are in hospital when this is started as it is safer and easier to monitor. One study has shown it takes 50 hours of dietetic time to instigate the diet. Many end up being tube fed as well because the diet is so high in fat - my limited experience several years was also that tube feeding was required because of the high volume of fat , particularly MCT oil which is not tolerated very well. A commercial tube feed is used but the diet is very deficient and has to be supplemented . There are also studies that have shown it has adverse effects on blood lipds and bones ! There are references which maybe worth lookig at - will see if i can get hold of them in work as it may have some relevance to low carbing.

So Atkins or low carb diet it is not and has to be monitored very carefully. For some kids it cannot be continued long term - they just cannot keep to it.

allyx

Hi Ally they don't mention tube feeding at Great Ormond Street, I can only presume they rarely have to resort to it.

the special MCT supplement is needed with each meal on the MCT diet - this can be mixed into milk or food.

http://www.ich.ucl.ac.uk/pressoffice/fe ... _diet.html

Actually a Ketogenic diet is low carb it can't be described in any other way, and a modified Atkins diet is also being considered for adult Epileptics and has also been used for children.

This link shows a few of the studies:

http://site.matthewsfriends.org/uploads ... s_diet.pdf

Cheers
Graham

 

[graham64]

Jopar

Even with the added knowledge of diabetes may not be enough when the going gets tough, then you’ve got to consider is this yo-yoing more harmful over the long run??? My bet would be yes, due to the fact of the lower or no medication involved, as when fallen off the wagon, the blood glucose will shoot up much quicker, and then climbing back on drops back into the boots, and this has to be more damaging to the diabetic, than a steady slightly higher tight control..

So what are you saying Jopar we should be eating more carbs and taking more medications just in case we fall off the wagon :roll: , and doesn't what you say apply to all T2s no matter what diet regime they follow who are on low or no medications.
The only incentive I need to stay on the wagon is the thought of complications brought on by hyperglycaemia. Don't forget diabetics are following a diet which is more than just a case of losing weight and therefore are more likely to stick with it.

The type and severity of long-term complications vary from case to case. You may not develop any at all. In general, the nearer your blood glucose level is to normal, the less your risk of developing complications. Your risk of developing complications is also reduced if you deal with any other 'risk factors' that you may have, such as high blood pressure.

http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Diabetes-Type-2.htm

Graham

 

[ally5555]

Actually Graham aroun 30% of kids are being tubefed in the Uk . Plus the MCT oil is vile - do have experience of that . So really it is a bit of an exaggeration to call a modified atkins diet - hope that clears up the confusion.

This diet has been used for quite a while - i have worked with kids on it and it is very difficult to follow.

 

[phoenix]

Graham,

I'm sure that for intractible epilepsy then a ketogenic diet works, (we don't know why it works but it demonstrates the importance of glucose on brain function, a lack of glucose can also lead to seizures as some type 1s will testify. )
For parents and doctors of children with epilepsy it would be necessary to prioritise whether relief from seizures during the important years of brain development was more important than the posssible future problems caused by the diet.

That there are potential problems is documented; even the small scale short term study you cited earlier,(one that incidently had no control so we don't really know if merits or demerits were due to chance anyway) described secondary effects.

Ten subjects (30%) discontinued the diet prior to 3 months. Side effects included
increased cholesterol (mean 187 to 201 mg/dL), blood urea nitrogen (BUN; 13 to 16 mg/dL), and
urine calcium to creatinine ratio (0.14 to 0.19).

so there was a relatively high attrition rate and remaining subjects had higher cholesterol levels, effects on kidneys and increased calcium excretion .

You (and your friend) often ask people to tell you how to control your diabetes without medication in a different way to the one you use.
You already know about alternatives, Furthermore, you say you enjoy your diet. You have full knowledge ,if not belief, of the potential drawbacks of your adopted diet; good, so why keep asking?
I don't think you really want an answer. Elsewhere, you join in with a person who deliberately misrepresents and parodies the diet and glucose control of myself and others.
If you really want to know alternatives, I suggest you look at the success of people like Catherine.... but it's clear you have, as your tag elsewhere confirms.

For the record though I'm certainly not going to proclaim it on every post.
HbA1c 5.5%, BMI 23,.using small quantities of completely necessary insulin through a pump for delivery (TDD 22U), a grandmother of 4. but fit enough to have completed the Hastings half marathon a week ago.(though slow and steady...not speedy)
Diet, a balanced, low gi diet cooked from fresh, mostly local and seasonal ingredients.

 

[ally5555]

In this months journal of human Nutrition and Dietetics there is a reveiw of ketogenic diets.

For some parents dealing with this very difficult regime is harder than dealing with seizures - I have seen this myself several years ago in practice. It is a shame as it can work for some kids so really you have to make sure that families fully inderstand the implications and difficulties before it is started.

 

[jopar]

Graham

I must congratulate you on your ability to quote in a manner that twists and takes out of context, what slimly newspaper did you work for again?

Even though I haven't been in the position of yo-yo dieting I am aware of the misery that this actual brings to an individual, I also have a great understanding of diabetes and the effects of different control may have on an individual... I was actually pointing this out, not telling anybody what to do, but making them aware of what options they may have... It's called giving information in full, so the individual decides what is the best option for them not me...

The difference between you and I, is that I am able to see beyond the 4.3mmoml/ml reading on the glucose meter understand IMPACT on other aspects of an indiviudal life... The different aspects that make a person, complete and feel fullfilled with their lives..

Sadly you and your clan, only look at one aspect of the individual, that of what the meter says! As long as the meter says 4.3mmol/ml you couldn't care a toss the impact or the misery that this may bring for the individual their family and friends as long as they are following your instruction that is all that matters...

 

[graham64]

Actually Graham aroun 30% of kids are being tubefed in the Uk . Plus the MCT oil is vile - do have experience of that . So really it is a bit of an exaggeration to call a modified atkins diet - hope that clears up the confusion.

This diet has been used for quite a while - i have worked with kids on it and it is very difficult to follow.

Hi Ally, I did not say a ketogenic diet was a modified Atkins diet, as you will know the ketogenic was around for many years before the advent of Atkins, what I did say was a modified Atkins diet has been considered for adult epileptics and has also been used with children.

The ketogenic diet (KD) and the modified Atkins diet are effective therapies for intractable epilepsy. We compared retrospectively the KD and modified Atkins diet in 27 children and also assessed serum long chain fatty acid profiles.

http://site.matthewsfriends.org/uploads ... s_diet.pdf

Cheers
Graham

 

[graham64]

Graham

I must congratulate you on your ability to quote in a manner that twists and takes out of context, what slimly newspaper did you work for again?

Must be a bit more upmarket than yours looking at your terminology!

Even though I haven't been in the position of yo-yo dieting I am aware of the misery that this actual brings to an individual, I also have a great understanding of diabetes and the effects of different control may have on an individual... I was actually pointing this out, not telling anybody what to do, but making them aware of what options they may have... It's called giving information in full, so the individual decides what is the best option for them not me...

I have also never been in a position of yo-yo dieting in fact only since diagnosis have I been on any diet full stop...But your suggestion to those diabetics on a Low Carb are yo-yo dieters and your ludicrous idea that if we fall off the wagon we should consider running at higher BG levels to counteract this, shows your great understanding not...What do you say to those on Low Gi when they fall off the wagon, as it is more calorie restricted than Low Carb surely you will get yo-yo dieters on Low Gi...

The difference between you and I, is that I am able to see beyond the 4.3mmoml/ml reading on the glucose meter understand IMPACT on other aspects of an indiviudal life... The different aspects that make a person, complete and feel fullfilled with their lives..

The difference between you and I, is that I do not venture into the T1 arena and stick to the T2 debates. As a T1 you match your insulin needs to your carb intake, as a T2 I match my carb intake to my insulin production to lessen the effect on my BG to try and avoid any possible complications, as they would have a big IMPACT on all the other aspects of my life... Through doing this and having the satisfaction of good BG control with no high spikes, I am able to have a complete, fulfilled and happy lifestyle without the worries of complications...


Sadly you and your clan, only look at one aspect of the individual, that of what the meter says! As long as the meter says 4.3mmol/ml you couldn't care a toss the impact or the misery that this may bring for the individual their family and friends as long as they are following your instruction that is all that matters...

I never give instructions to anyone, it's a pity you and your tribe spend so much time rubbishing Low Carb perhaps if you concentrated more on promoting your Low Gi diets we would not have these long threads, that will always cause controversy.

Graham

 

[jopar]

Actually I gave up reading newspapers many years ago got a tad fed up with choosing between we are all doomed, financially, politically and environmentally or the other side of miss-quotes and kiss and tell stories...

As to my knowledge of diets, T1 and T2 diabetes, I spent 15 years working having to learn about these and many more medical specific dietary needs, here’s just an example

Diabetes - Personal, + professional
Coeliac disease – professional
Huntington’s – professional
Renal end failure –professional
Dementia – professional
Weight gain + loss – professional

Oh yes, you be very pleased to know, that many T2’s and T1’s actually did improve their control with my help and their HCP, always working with their ‘basic human right’ the right to choice, and it’s a nice feeling when discussing with a DNS, that a client might need a tad more insulin due to knowing that they wouldn’t resist the mince pies on Christmas day, being told don’t how you manage it but their control has really improved...

I’ve built up a lot of knowledge of different aspects of dietary and nutritional needs linked to various medical conditions, and with this knowledge I am not convinced that diets such as Atkins don’t have long term concerns of use, and are very difficult to maintain over a period of time for most individuals... I actually haven’t known anybody who’s undertaken Atkins to maintain it for any length of time, even to be useful in reaching a weight goal!

But I do believe that a lot of problems is its sales pitch ‘eat all you want’ (as long as it’s within this restricted list) bit like saying gain control of your diabetes, any way you choose as long as it my way!! Why do we have to follow a predetermined named diet, can’t we t not look at all that is said and suggested, determine what parts of what diet suit and works for us, and build our own personal named diet, I get Jopar diet you get Granhams diet, Ally gets Ally diet and so on... Lost easier and less likely for anybody to fall off the wagon then...

 

[Dillinger]

Hello Jopar,

I noticed on another post that you said you used to work at a kennels. Is that where your professional dietary expertise comes from? And if so did Ally train there as well? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Put down your boxing gloves that was a joke!

Dillinger

 

[ally5555]

Actually dill - i do not find that funny at all. This is the problem here - everyone is a so called expert but in reality there are very few HCP posting because they get sick of experts!!

Now all of you stop the bickering!

 

[jopar]

Dillinger

Nah, I've only worked at the kennels for the last 18months...

But talking doggy diets... You should see the debate over what is the correct diet to feed your dog :shock: Raw diet, dry complete diet, if you feed your dog this brand of food you killing him, they all in it for the money and care little for the health ect etc, if you think these arguments get heated, dry taking a peek at a dog forum or two (and no I make no comments on dog diets) each to there own............ And thats the bits you are allowed to read...

There is only one brand of dog food that if asked I would say think carefully, as open the box is blantanly obvious that by its colours it's designed to catch the human eye (dogs couldn't care a stuff what colour their food is) and it just happens a higher percentage of hyperactive, bad mannered dogs seem to feed on this, if changed they become a much more settled and better mannered (easier to train)

 

[sugarless sue]

Personal comments to members, whether deemed a joke or not, are not tolerated on the board. Please stick to debating the subject in hand and leave personalities out of the equation.

 

[noblehead]

Hi all,

As I believe that this discussion has ran its course now, and whilst there has been some good points put across from both sides of the argument in the initial stages, I feel that we are now going over old ground, and for this reason we should close this thread before things get out of hand.

Therefore, as I was OP that started it, and for reasons of common sense, could I ask one of the moderation team to now lock this thread. Many thanks to all that contributed to the subject!

Nigel

 

[Anonymous]

As the OP has requested and after reviewing all the posts this thread is going nowhere. The thread is now locked.