Dawn phenomenon - is it really 02:00 - 08:00?

[daisyduck]

I have the same symptoms, It seems fairly standard that a low carb diet can lead to sleeplessness, as I have seen that referenced in few places,

I have a freestyle monitor so test when I wake up , the end result is that I can see the readings through the night when this happens I have checked each time and my blood sugars haven't moved at all.

Thus I do think that the sleeplessness is connected to the diet in some way, but I'm not sure its got anything to do with the blood sugar readings. Maybe we could discuss privately what we are eating - because I absolutely recognise your desciption and its annoying me too.

Thanks Cherry. I have only got my Codefree meter so made an effort to get up and test a couple of times last night. 7.0 at 1.30am when I went to bed. 5.5 at 2.30am the first time I woke. 7.1 at 3.30am didn't bother with the next 3 waking. and then 8.0 at 9am when I did get up.
How did you get your freestyle meter ? I've had to buy my own codefree as our surgery doesn't agree with type 2 testing.

 

[daisyduck]

Anyone with sleep disturbance should get their thyroid checked. Please.

Thanks Ickihun. I don't think my thyroid has been checked recently although they said it was OK when I was diagnosed with metabolic syndrome about 4 years ago.

 

[daisyduck]

Same here daisyduck. When I was first diagnosed I went straight to lchf way of eating and all was fine but it seems to have started up again. Not to the same degree, thank goodness, but it disrupts my sleep.
We have supper about 6pm so quite early I think. Nothing to eat then until my first coffee about 12 hours later.
I may have to eat less or experiment in some way. My BS this morning was 8.1!

Mine was 8.0 too. It's really annoying when it is good during the day. I have tried lots of the suggested tips on here .. eating a snack before bed, fasting etc but haven't found a solution yet.

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks Cherry. I have only got my Codefree meter so made an effort to get up and test a couple of times last night. 7.0 at 1.30am when I went to bed. 5.5 at 2.30am the first time I woke. 7.1 at 3.30am didn't bother with the next 3 waking. and then 8.0 at 9am when I did get up.
How did you get your freestyle meter ? I've had to buy my own codefree as our surgery doesn't agree with type 2 testing.

I've bought it myself £50 for the meter then £100 per month for the sensors. In the end its more expensive than the fingerpricks, but you learn SO much more about yourself that I figured its worth it for a while .
https://www.freestylelibre.co.uk/

 

[CherryAA]

Mine was 8.0 too. It's really annoying when it is good during the day. I have tried lots of the suggested tips on here .. eating a snack before bed, fasting etc but haven't found a solution yet.

Mine was higher than usual this morning too! - maybe it atmospheric conditions !

 

[ickihun]

Mine was 8.0 too. It's really annoying when it is good during the day. I have tried lots of the suggested tips on here .. eating a snack before bed, fasting etc but haven't found a solution yet.

In my experience fasting for long periods evokes the dump. They say eat every 4hrs. (Little and often). A protein supper can help. I do liver dumps as often as I remember to do them. I just wish my morning routine was nibble cheese before getting out of bed with my fbg test before arising. Although my levothyroine needs to be taken on an empty stomach and a 3yr old is normally looking in my face for his breakfast before nursery. On weekends its different.
I've made a mental attempt to make some changes. Coffee and cream first then tablets and insulin.
I know the answer is there its just perfecting it.
Early last year I did blocks all the time on lchf too. My liver showed a remarkable improvement in my fatty liver diagnosis so I concluded my blocks were not detrimental to my liver. Therefore I continue to use liver blocks like coffee and cream, cheese and almonds/mixed nuts. I've on occasion just had a mouthful of double cream , in a hurry.
Experiment and find what's right for you!

 

[Bluetit1802]

I used to skip breakfasts when my diet was terrible.

Now I find having breakfast is key, and it was also vital to establishing a routine when I sorted my diabetes out.
Having said that I don't stress if I go up slightly after eating it.
'Normal' non diabetics do.

The problem is this morning I had breakfast - boiled egg and my usual cup of tea. I went up from 5.1 to 7.4 and was still 6.7 four hours later. That is not food causing that, nor stress nor any other similar issue. It is my liver. I skipped breakfasts apart from the tea for over 2 months as an experiment. It makes hardly any difference whether I eat or not. I will be low 5s again before lunch and back to normal levels for the rest of the day.

 

[ickihun]

scanned my sensor immediately before getting out of bed this morning. It was 5.1.
It is currently 7.4. All I had was a boiled egg. No exercise other than general pottering about.
Not good. Back to no breakfasts tomorrow.

You need fat to block the rise hun. A boiled egg won't do it!
Try cheese or coffee and cream tomorrow. No carb or low carb breakfast.
Make your boiled egg into egg mayonnaise?

 

[Juicetin]

Same for me, it doesn't matter what I do, don't do, eat or not eat, I am always getting high 6's when I wake up and this lasts until lunchtime. Tried all the no breakfast/low carb breakfast, bit of protein before bed etc and this doesn't make any difference either. I tried running on the spot this morning for 10 mins when I got up, this did reduce my BS down to 6 temporarily but then it rose again.
Exhausted all avenues now !

 

[daisyduck]

I've bought it myself £50 for the meter then £100 per month for the sensors. In the end its more expensive than the fingerpricks, but you learn SO much more about yourself that I figured its worth it for a while .
https://www.freestylelibre.co.uk/

Thanks Cherry I might have to invest in this to get a better idea of what's happening

 

[CherryAA]

Thanks Cherry I might have to invest in this to get a better idea of what's happening

The thing that amazed me was how clearly I can see myself going off the rails, with the chronometer and the sensor, you can see exactly what happens for example to overnight fasting blood sugars if you go too heavy on the proteins, -it makes the concept - low carb, moderate protein and high fat much more easy to understand, so a lovely steak is great but if you eat it in steak like quantities you will pay the price the following day, if you stick to a more reasonable 60-80 g then all is well. All of my blood sugar rises over xmas ( see analysing xmas post) were purely from going too heavy on the meat. I had three single chocolates for the entire two week period, and otherwise stuck to low cab, just relaxed on the protein quantities)

The other thing is how much it helps my will power - so for example - if I have managed to get my blood sugars down to say 4.5 in the evening, then the very idea of having a snack becomes more difficult, because I can see that if I eat the snack the 4.5 that I am so pleased with will go away and be replaced with 5.5 or more and that is what I will then be stuck with for a few hours and probably overnight too. Its like having your conscience displayed in front of you on a minute by minute basis - no excuses. In the end I figure that spending £600 per annum to stay well enough to go on holiday, is worth missing a few days holiday so that when I do go its the healthy me that sets off.

 

[Bluetit1802]

You need fat to block the rise hun. A boiled egg won't do it!
Try cheese or coffee and cream tomorrow. No carb or low carb breakfast.
Make your boiled egg into egg mayonnaise?

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried that. Makes no difference.

 

[daisyduck]

The thing that amazed me was how clearly I can see myself going off the rails, with the chronometer and the sensor, you can see exactly what happens for example to overnight fasting blood sugars if you go too heavy on the proteins, -it makes the concept - low carb, moderate protein and high fat much more easy to understand, so a lovely steak is great but if you eat it in steak like quantities you will pay the price the following day, if you stick to a more reasonable 60-80 g then all is well. All of my blood sugar rises over xmas ( see analysing xmas post) were purely from going too heavy on the meat. I had three single chocolates for the entire two week period, and otherwise stuck to low cab, just relaxed on the protein quantities)

The other thing is how much it helps my will power - so for example - if I have managed to get my blood sugars down to say 4.5 in the evening, then the very idea of having a snack becomes more difficult, because I can see that if I eat the snack the 4.5 that I am so pleased with will go away and be replaced with 5.5 or more and that is what I will then be stuck with for a few hours and probably overnight too. Its like having your conscience displayed in front of you on a minute by minute basis - no excuses. In the end I figure that spending £600 per annum to stay well enough to go on holiday, is worth missing a few days holiday so that when I do go its the healthy me that sets off.

I've just watched all the videos and it looks amazing. The will power / snack theory is great too Saying that though if I don't eat for a long time my BG tends to rise anyway !

 

[CherryAA]

I've just watched all the videos and it looks amazing. The will power / snack theory is great too Saying that though if I don't eat for a long time my BG tends to rise anyway !

like everything its a constant balancing act isn't it!

 

[Speedbird]

You need fat to block the rise hun. A boiled egg won't do it!
Try cheese or coffee and cream tomorrow. No carb or low carb breakfast.
Make your boiled egg into egg mayonnaise?

That's interesting ickihun. Are you saying then eat fats first thing in the morning to lower BS? I will try it tomorrow anyway.

Anyone with sleep disturbance should get their thyroid checked. Please.

Interesting too. After my pet scan, my thyroid was lit up like a Christmas tree. Seeing an endocrinologist next week.

 

[KeithSimpson001]

The dawn phenomenon, sometimes called the dawn effect, is an early-morning (usually between 2 a.m. and 8 a.m.) increase in blood sugar (glucose) relevant to people with diabetes. It is different from chronic Somogyi rebound in that dawn phenomenon is not associated with nocturnal hypoglycemia.

I've quoted wikipedia which may not be the best source but it's close to everything else I've read.

I have been pretty good with the low(er) carb thing for about 4 years where even my GP puts well done in my notes. Just before Christmas my HbA1c was well into the 50s so not good.

I've cut right back on the cheese, yoghurt and cream (I also gained 11kgs, GP HAD said I didn't eat enough), my only treats as it were and source extra calories that I won't miss. The mixed nuts have gone as well, doesn't seem like anything dreadful but I'm struggling to find sources of anything that might elevate BG (fats shouldn't normally, but I have read that they do when carbs are low).

One thing I have noticed is that my readings are high in the morning, usually double figures, but they don't always drop when I've eaten something and certainly don't when I haven't eaten. This morning is a good example 08:00 10.2, no breakfast as I had an appointment which I did not want to be late for. 14:00 when I got home 12.0 ??? Then I just had chicken and steamed veg and by 16:00 it had dropped to 7.0. I need to get my Libre set up and I need to make sure I don't skip breakfast.

So, does the dawn phenomenon really only occur between 02:00 - 08:00

Alpha cells in the pancreas produce hormones that stimulate the release of glucose by the liver but when you eat, hormones are produced that suppress these alpha cells & so reduce the amount of glucose being released by the liver. Hence if you are sufficiently diabetic that you aren't able to keep that released glucose under control, the consequence is high blood sugar when fasting. Certainly for me all this rings true, though for some reason this phenomenon doesn't seem to be widely perceived as an issue. Separately there is a dawn phenomenon which revolves around the release of adrenalin that also promotes the release of glucose by the liver. The consultant I saw talked of increased 'resistance' in the morning but this is extremly unhelpful as 'resistance' is normally a reference to cells requiring more insulin than normal to accept glucose. It is a complex matter to understand all the potential interactions & sadly I don't think anyone [including the diabetes consultants] properly understand the whole picture.

 

[Ange G]

I am confused and frustrated by my (DP). I am due a HBA1c test in two weeks time and I know my morning readings are going to spoil my hard work at keeping my BG down throughout the day. I have tested, tested, tested, low carbbed, fasted and stood on my head since diagnosis last august. My readings throughout the day range from 5.2 to 8 after my evening meal then dropping to around 6 or lower before bed.. My awaking reading has never been below 7.5 and as high as 9.9. I have fallen out with liver, putting all the blame on it but now wonder if I should be pointing the finger at my pancreas, or could it be a combination that both my unwilling organs should be in the dog house. I now wonder if I should eat small and regular lchf that way my stomach might like me again, at least one out of three is good..... I know I joke here, but that's the only way I can cope with my diagnosis. I am scared, my mum, brother, and twin sister all have type 2, my nan lost her sight through diabetes. I am trying to control this without meds .... maybe this will change after my January blood test.

 

[ickihun]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried that. Makes no difference.

Have you had your liver checked? What was your liver ALT level?

 

[Bluetit1802]

Have you had your liver checked? What was your liver ALT level?

My liver is perfect. ALT is 21.
What works for some, for example a fat only breakfast, doesn't work for others, just like everything else in this mysterious game called diabetes.

From my Libre log I have averaged my 15 minute readings from the one after fasting to the one where it drops to normal. Tomorrow I will have coffee and cream and do a similar average. So far, just tea, and egg and tea are the same.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Alpha cells in the pancreas produce hormones that stimulate the release of glucose by the liver but when you eat, hormones are produced that suppress these alpha cells & so reduce the amount of glucose being released by the liver. Hence if you are sufficiently diabetic that you aren't able to keep that released glucose under control, the consequence is high blood sugar when fasting. Certainly for me all this rings true, though for some reason this phenomenon doesn't seem to be widely perceived as an issue. Separately there is a dawn phenomenon which revolves around the release of adrenalin that also promotes the release of glucose by the liver. The consultant I saw talked of increased 'resistance' in the morning but this is extremly unhelpful as 'resistance' is normally a reference to cells requiring more insulin than normal to accept glucose. It is a complex matter to understand all the potential interactions & sadly I don't think anyone [including the diabetes consultants] properly understand the whole picture.

Thank you. It is indeed a complex issue and although I understand that breaking a fast should trigger the liver to switch off a glucose dump, my BG still seems to be rising until after my lunch when it will drop dramatically to almost normal single figures.

I might be seeing problems that don't exist but I think it's quite possible that my GP might add something like Gliclazide to my Metformin and when that happened last time I gained weight without trying, not an ideal situation and something I have come to be paranoid about.