LCHF and 'Dawn Phenomenon'?

[MrsHutt]

Hi
I generally follow a very low carb diet (try to keep below 20g) and have seen my numbers stabilize quite nicely (last Hb1AC = 52). I still take gliclazide and empaliflozin. However, I am waking at 4 most days with palpitations and sweats and just put it down to a liver dump at that time and try to get back to sleep! I take my BG first thing (generally forget for the rest of the time!!) and it is on the high side (maybe 8-9) but I have thought this is due to the morning dump I had 2 hours before. This morning it was 11.9 - highest it has been for a long time. I do not want my averages to go up again. Is there anything I can do to prevent that dump at 4.00am!?

 

[ickihun]

Yes @MrsHutt .
Try out some liver blocks.

A liver block is a fatty protein, normally.
Cheese, nuts, pork scratchings or1 piece of streaky bacon.
The fat slows its digestion and the protein keeps your bg level unlike a carb which spikes you.

Now. If you go to bed on a 7 then you could awake on a 7 too.
Give this liver block at try before sleep. Don't forget to try and get 8hrs sleep. Awake at 4am may interfer with this a little but give it your best shot for 3 days and if still getting dumping you may need less fat if asleep less hours.

In the ideal world I'd ask you to set your alarm and test your blood sugar before sleep and at 2am (for you, since you rise so early). I know not practical so I'll leave that decision to you. It would only need to be done once or twice, then never again. Some find an experiment worth doing to find out what time their liver dumps on them.

Please let me know your next 3 days findings are.
All the best. ickihun.

Ps. Have you discovered which carbs are spiking you since doing lchf?

 

[MrsHutt]

Thank you! I will try this. Looking at the LCHF websites I did think maybe I wasn't having enough fat overall, so bit of a 'fat bomb' at bedtime would fit in with this. The worst things for my numbers are bread of any kind. I had a tiny bit of porridge the other week when I had an upset tummy and it went to 17 - so oats appear to be a no-no as well. I don't have any 'white' carbs at all (bread, pasta, rice etc) but the very occasional TINY potato seems ok.

 

[catinahat]

Hi MrsHutt
When you feel ill around 4 am do you test or are you just assuming that its caused by high levels.
I was thinking that maybe gliclazide and low carb could be causing you to go too low and that your high morning levels might be the Somogyi effect http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/somogyi-phenomenon.html

 

[MrsHutt]

Hi MrsHutt
When you feel ill around 4 am do you test or are you just assuming that its caused by high levels.
I was thinking that maybe gliclazide and low carb could be causing you to go too low and that your high morning levels might be the Somogyi effect http://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/somogyi-phenomenon.html

Thank you! Actually, this sounds right! I was (as they suggest in the article) assuming that I was waking due to low sugars and then the liver was dumping on me causing high numbers later as I get up - I thought this was the 'dawn phenomenon'. I will see if I can be a bit better with my night time testing for the next few days (as well as a fat bomb at bed time!) Just done my blood again (3 hours after last test having had nothing but black tea - and it is 12.5!!) I need to get this sorted!!

 

[ickihun]

Thank you! I will try this. Looking at the LCHF websites I did think maybe I wasn't having enough fat overall, so bit of a 'fat bomb' at bedtime would fit in with this. The worst things for my numbers are bread of any kind. I had a tiny bit of porridge the other week when I had an upset tummy and it went to 17 - so oats appear to be a no-no as well. I don't have any 'white' carbs at all (bread, pasta, rice etc) but the very occasional TINY potato seems ok.

Try reheated potato. It doesnt spike me and a few others. Just remember somethings work for people and somethings don't. The key is to try and test. Test test test for first few months then its easy to identify no-nos. Same with finding the right liver block for you.

 

[ickihun]

12.5 is high considering the meds your on and doing low carb. Are you eating too much protein as protein converts to glucose too. Just takes it a bit longer but compounded by more protein it can leave high bgs, as I've found on lchf.

Thank you! Actually, this sounds right! I was (as they suggest in the article) assuming that I was waking due to low sugars and then the liver was dumping on me causing high numbers later as I get up - I thought this was the 'dawn phenomenon'. I will see if I can be a bit better with my night time testing for the next few days (as well as a fat bomb at bed time!) Just done my blood again (3 hours after last test having had nothing but black tea - and it is 12.5!!) I need to get this sorted!!

 

[Resurgam]

Could you perhaps accept that there are high carb foods you will not eat during the time you are getting control of your blood glucose numbers? Not even tiny amounts, just none at all.
When I was getting my readings to go down I found that eating something which caused a rise over 2 whole numbers also affected how I coped for the next day or two. I told myself that to continue to test my metabolism was wasting time and so I stuck to eating low carb foods, and it really does make a difference to how I feel, because I can make a whole meal for under 10 gm of carbs and have blood glucose under 7.5 two hours later.
If I feel a bit off, I don't eat at all, just drink water, but that is because I don't take tablets and so I trust my body to cope.
Humans are well adapted to going without food.
The best first aid for someone starving is a drink of warm water.

 

[MrsHutt]

Thanks for all your ideas. Fasted 20/13 then I had avocado, parma ham and cheese for lunch yesterday, pork and vege stir fry for dinner with Greek yoghurt for pudding. No white carbs at all (not had a potato for weeks). I thought that was LCHF enough!

 

[MrsHutt]

12.5 is high considering the meds your on and doing low carb. Are you eating too much protein as protein converts to glucose too. Just takes it a bit longer but compounded by more protein it can leave high bgs, as I've found on lchf.

I don't think I have too much protein, but I probably need to be more careful totaling things up. I had pork & vege stir fry for tea last night with Greek yoghurt for pudding (about 8.00pm) and then nothing until lunch time (as is usual) today

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi
I generally follow a very low carb diet (try to keep below 20g) and have seen my numbers stabilize quite nicely (last Hb1AC = 52). I still take gliclazide and empaliflozin. However, I am waking at 4 most days with palpitations and sweats and just put it down to a liver dump at that time and try to get back to sleep! I take my BG first thing (generally forget for the rest of the time!!) and it is on the high side (maybe 8-9) but I have thought this is due to the morning dump I had 2 hours before. This morning it was 11.9 - highest it has been for a long time. I do not want my averages to go up again. Is there anything I can do to prevent that dump at 4.00am!?

If you are genuinely on such a low carb diet and not eating any hidden carbs, then your numbers are very high considering the medication you are on. I suggest you test before you go to bed, again if you wake up with palpitations and sweats, and then compare these readings to your morning fasting. Your palpitations and sweats could be high BS but could be low BS (hypo territory) or could be nothing to do with diabetes. Until you know if it is a liver dump I would be disinclined to try and treat it.

Are you testing before and after meals? If these levels are also high, then I believe you need a visit to your nurse because it seems your medication isn't working as well as it should.

 

[bulkbiker]

No white carbs at al

You mention white carbs often.. are you eating wholemeal carbs instead or is that just your shorthand for the bad ones?

 

[Kristin251]

I have to eat within minutes of getting up or I keep rising. Fasting in the morning doesn't work at all for me but I could go from bf to dinner if I wanted. I like food too much so I always have lunch

Bf FOR ME needs to be vlc and no protein so I have avocado with celery. I still will rise but much lower and slower. I am type 1 now so I just take a small dose an hour after bf and it stops the rise.

Do youneat right when you get up? It doesn't have to be a full bf. Some avocado or a few nuts or a small piece of cheese should work.

 

[ickihun]

So you are doing fasting as well as your own version of lchf?
I think your doing too much together.
Meds plus 2 forms of dieting and maybe high GI carbs in your version of lchf is the whole problem. They are converting into high bgs and stored bgs.
When you stop the fast you are getting flooded by the stored bg, hence 12s.