No carbs or Carbs?

[maryrachel]

Hi

Is anyone able to eat a salad with chicken, small amount of red pepper and tomato, ice berg lettuce, egg, cheese and cucumber and not take insulin? In theory this should be no carb and therefore no insulin but it puts my sugar up 5 mmol. I think my basal is fine and I was told at DAFNe that this should not need cover but clearly it does. 6.5 at start, 11.3 now???

any ideas?

 

[noblehead]

You will still need a small amount of insulin to cover the protein in your meal.

Nigel

 

[sugarless sue]

I have heard this said before about DAFNE courses and don't really understand it. There are carbs in vegs, ok maybe not a lot per portion but they are there !
For instance :

Iceburg lettuce......0.6 carbs per 30gm
Red Pepper......... 2.6 carbs per 40gm
Tomato .............4.7carbs per 1 medium.
Egg...................0.6 carbs per egg
Cheese..............depends on type but there are carbs in some of the processed cheeses.
Cucumber...........1.1 carbs per 75gm.

Some pre cooked chickens are cooked with brown sugar coating to make them look brown and of course some of the protein in the chicken,cheese and egg with convert to glucose so that has to be factored as well.
OK the total amount there is 9.6 carbs not a lot but they are there. Some other veg contain a lot more carbs per 100gm so I would have thought may have some bearing on the amount of insulin required for a meal.

 

[maryrachel]

Nigel/Sue

thanks for your replies. I did this "test" with this salad today because i did not beleive that I would not need cover for this. When i questioned this at the dafne course they said I should not need cover even for tomatoes and peppers which I know contain some carbs and the protein also they said does not need cover. I think a 5 mmol jump is quite a lot so I think I would have needed to take 2-3 units which is more than 10g worth of carb too so the protein must need cover. The chicken was pre cooked but white and i dont think it had anything added but I cant be sure as it was bought from a fresh sandwich delivery service.

 

[LizzieP]

Hi Maryrachel,
Gah. I find this a bit annoying (of the DAPHNE people). I was also told I didn't need to inject for the below and found myself just like you when in double figures after my meal! So, I looked at the actual carb content of the items and as Sue shows, they do add up. I eat that kind of lunch every single day and I would have to inject about 2 units for the 9.6g carb shown below. You are doing the right thing by injecting for this, I think. Good for you. 8)

 

[phoenix]

I woud have to take some insulin for a meal with no carbs, particularly if it had eggs in it which for some reason seems (in me) to convert very readily to glucose. Indeed I've found I need as much for the occasional traditional English breakfast as for my normal porridge and bilberries.
As Sue pointed out there are carbs in veg. I was taught (not a Dafne course) to estimate them, I weigh the starches but then add 5 or 10 g to account for the veg ( occasionally more with for example a large portion of roasted veg)
Just take care not to overestimate when you do your next experiment!

 

[sugarless sue]

Never having been on a DAFNE course being a type 2 what exactly are you taught about veg on the course. For instance a potato is a veg but surely they don't tell you to discount them ? :shock:

 

[badmedisin]

If I eat a 'no carb' salad it puts my bg up by about 3mmol. I think you still need a bit of insulin.

Dafne is brilliant but the stuff you're not supposed to count is just weird. They said not to count carbs in cherries. Hmm. Maybe if you only eat one... You get about 10 cherries for 1 cp. I would inject for that. Also they said not to count beans, lentils, etc. If I don't count my houmous I get a high bg. They also say there's no difference between fast and slow acting carbs. But if I eat a brown baguette my by is ok after, but a White baguette with the same number of carbs will put my bg up higher and stay there.

I think dafne provides a good framework but you still have to experiment to find out what works best for you personally.

Btw, potato isn't really counted as a veg. For example, it can't count towards your 5 a day. It counts as a carb along with pasta, etc.

 

[cugila]

Can we clarify this business about the Potato .........it is a vegetable. We know it doesn't count as one of your 'five a day' however are you saying that you don't count carbs in a Potato or not ?? :?

A Baked Potato has 25.2g per 100g therefore a medium sized Baked Potato (200g) has a total of 50.4g carbs.

We are just trying to get this clear....are you told to count them or not ?

Ken

 

[noblehead]

We are just trying to get this clear....are you told to count them or not ?

Ken

Yes Ken, potato's are counted no matter which way they come. The course also covers the glycaemic index of foods, and emphasises that mashed potato will raise bg faster than say chips, but may fall soon after as where chips may be slower acting and will raise bg some hours later.

The emphasis is on personal experience, they reiterate that its all down to personal experience how foods effect bg, and insist that only by testing bg's both pre/post meal-times can you establish which foods do what to your bg.

On DAFNE, 10g of carbs is called 1CP (carbohydrate portion) so your a baked tattie would be 5 CP's.

Nigel

 

[cugila]

Thanks for that Nigel.

Which Veg do they tell you to count then. All....or just certain ones ? Is there an online book of CP's that we can see perhaps ? We had somebody here before who insisted that you don't count veg....period ! That's why we were a little confused about this. Seemed a rather strange thing to say and resulted in a protracted debate which really didn't give the answers as you have provided. Interested to know more about this.

And ALL vegetables (apart from the obvious starchy ones such as potato and sweet potato) are not counted at all. Neither are pulses – everything from chick peas (including pureed chick peas as in houmous) to lentils and beans are treated as free foods. This was explained by some talk of how carbs affected bg, explaining about low GI and how the fibre in veg and pulses slows down the carb release.

The above is from another Diabetic Forum where a member was giving an account of his experience of a DAFNE course and it's content. That was apparently what he was told........now we are even more confused. Is that statement true or not do you know from your experience of the DAFNE course.
Hope you don't mind the questions but we feel this is very important as we have seen mention of this here before and it just seems daft to discount Veg as they do add up as Sue and Phoenix previously pointed out ??

Ken.

 

[sugarless sue]

Been doing some digging as I am interested to find the answer, found this on another forum.

"DAFNE does not count Veggies because they are absorbed differently than starchy foods......they are absorbed too slowly for any quick acting insulin to deal with....

Background should deal with it.....

If you want more information on this you should google 'glycemic index' which is an indication of the rate carbs are converted to sugar. It is not covered on the DAFNE Course,
when I checked why ( people had been asking) it was because it was felt it was too much information to take on board when you are being bombarded with ratios and rules etc.
The feeling is that those interested will look into it themselves.

Is this the explanation that you were given ? I know from my own experience with certain veg and pulses that my BG can rocket. I've even seen Type 1's say the same thing on the forum.

 

[catherinecherub]

Good explanation here.

http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/easdec/prevent ... proach.htm

Click on the highlighted link, "carbohydrate list as portion here" and you will have access to all foods and their carb exchanges taken from the DAFNE course.

 

[cugila]

Thanks Catherine.....a great link.

Just what we were looking for. I never thought of that site as I use it myself for reference quite often. So, a little light reading over the weekend. That should keep me out of trouble......... :twisted:

Ken

 

[noblehead]

The glyceamic index of food is indeed discussed on the course (well it was on the one I attended) and is also mentioned on page 18 of the handbook.

I too was told that it wasn't important to count vegetables, I did ask why this was so and was told DAFNE was designed around the old 'humun insulins' rather than the rapid acting analogue insulins we have today, therefore with the Soluble/Isophane insulin they were slower acting and tended to lower bg slower over a longer period, therefore as veg is digested slower than a higher glyceamic food such as potato's, this would balance out with the longer acting profile of human insulin. I did make a point of suggesting that this information needed upgrading, and wrote this in the suggestions/course review on the final day.

As I said earlier, the importance is placed on the individual to establish which foods impact more or less on blood glucose control, hence why the emphasise that patients test regularly and record there bg readings in their diary.

Hope the above is useful, but for the record I too like Pheonix count my veg when establishing my insulin/carb ratio.

Regards

Nigel

 

[cugila]

Cheers Nigel.
So, I think it is back to that old chestnut........"We are all different."

It is obvious from some posts we have seen that for some you just cannot ignore Veg when calculating carbs. We regularly see posts from T1's and DAFNE graduates about this which is why we wanted a bit more information. Thanks for helping us out and also Catherine for giving me another weekend of fun filled facts and figures.

As you pointed out to the course that you were on it does seem a little flawed to just discount things when quite obviously it can and does have an effect. I wonder did they ever update the information.....?

I think the Guinness and the Glenfiddich might just be brought into play at some point this weekend....... :wink:

Cheers (hic)
Ken

 

[carty]

Ken
The guiness and glenfiddich should keep you going longer than the weekend I have proof
The horse and mare live 30 years and do not know of wine and beers.
The goats and sheepat 20 die and never taste the scotch or rye
The cow drinks water by the ton at 15 life is almost done
The dog at 14 years packs in without the aid of rum or gin.
The modest sober bone dry hen lays eggs for years and dies at 10
But sinful,ginful, rum soaked men survive for three score years and 10
And some of us the mighty few stay pickled till we are 92 :!: :lol:
Have a good weekend CAROL

 

[cugila]

Thanks Carol.........I am sober....... at the moment ! :wink: :shock:

Weekend.....I enjoy every single day........isn't that what life is all about. :wink:

Same to you as well.

Ken

 

[claridge]

Hi all,
I went on Day 1 today of my DAPHNE course and have been told the same thing - do not count veg/salad - so theoretically (they told me) being a low carber l should not require any insulin in the meals l am eating as the background insulin should cover it - l didnt get more of an answer but tomorrow we are talking about Background insulin so hopefully all will be revealed... although why would l increase my daily insulin when its at the same level when l wake as it is when l go to sleep - l dont fancy going hypo! Big confused by this...
I am the only low carber and l know it has caused some others to be slightly defensive but l dont care l think l am living in a really healthy way and l feel great! And had a very hilly long walking weekend in Swanage and blood sugars remained fine!

 

[cugila]

We have had this mentioned before about not counting Veg etc.....

A lot of members also found this confusing - especially those that also low carb/reduce carb. Depending on the quantity of Veg you have in a portion it can mount up to quite a significant amount of extra carbs. I think you just have to do what you think is right. Include them or not and see if your insulin doses need adjusting.