Reversing Type 2 diabetes

AliB

Well-Known Member
Messages
334
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
You know, this is exactly why I don't visit or post on DUK very much these days. It doesn't seem five minutes ago that those who posted about LCHF were being harangued and ridiculed by the majority.

So someone posts an alternative viewpoint and then is treated in exactly the same way that the original LCHF proponents were.

As some may know, I was a vocal proponent of LCHF a few years back. I faithfully followed it, trying higher fat, lower fat, higher carb, lower carb and even zero carb for a while, in an attempt to reverse my T2 and weight gain. But to no avail.

Still tired, little energy, very sluggish, the only way I can lose weight is not eat at all, and the more fat and/or animal protein I eat, the worse my insulin resistance gets And the more sluggish I get. Not only that but regardless of what I have tried, my digestion has been struggling to digest animal protein for some time, and has been interminably slow and my kidneys have also been struggling.

So I have finally given up trying. And yes, I have been transitioning to WFPB food. I came across this thread when doing research on Diabetes and WFPB.

Having long been scared of fruit, I have been starting the day with an array of fruits - watermelon, grapes, cherries, strawberries, grapefruit, etc., and even a banana! I am eating sweet potato, rice, beans, peas and other veg, either as salad or cooked, and yes, it has pushed my blood sugar higher initially, yet within a week it is starting to respond to the insulin so much better! I can see how this could potentially reverse insulin resistance given time.

It is interesting that whilst none of the groups logged as the healthiest, long-lived, etc., eat a totally plant-based diet, they do eat in general a very plant-heavy diet with limited amounts of animal protein, compared to those eating the Western diet.

Dr. Cyrus Khambatta has some interesting videos on YouTube about the benefits of WFPB. He is Type 1 himself. I had avoided watching the film Forks Over Knives until a few days ago, as I thought it was Vegan Propaganda (sorry to any vegans), but it is actually very enlightening. There are some interesting reversal experiences using WFPB on YouTube and the net now too since this thread was triggered.

So, in a week I have lost 1lb of weight (1lb loss per week seems to be normal for this regime), my energy seems to be improving slightly, my elimination is quick and easy (after being constipated most of my LCHF life), my insulin sensitivity is improving and I am sleeping better. Time will tell......

We just have to stop this 'one size fits all' attitude. If LCHF works for you, and has reversed your Diabetes, that is wonderful. If another approach works for someone else, that is wonderful too! Above all, let's be encouraging one another, not belittling....
 
Last edited:

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
You know, this is exactly why I don't visit or post on DUK very much these days. It doesn't seem five minutes ago that those who posted about LCHF were being harangued and ridiculed by the majority.

So someone posts an alternative viewpoint and then is treated in exactly the same way that the original LCHF proponents were.

As some may know, I was a vocal proponent of LCHF a few years back. I faithfully followed it, trying higher fat, lower fat, higher carb, lower carb and even zero carb for a while, in an attempt to reverse my T2 and weight gain. But to no avail.

Still tired, little energy, very sluggish, the only way I can lose weight is not eat at all, and the more fat and/or animal protein I eat, the worse my insulin resistance gets And the more sluggish I get. Not only that but regardless of what I have tried, my digestion has been struggling to digest animal protein for some time, and has been interminably slow and my kidneys have also been struggling.

So I have finally given up trying. And yes, I have been transitioning to WFPB food. I came across this thread when doing research on Diabetes and WFPB.

Having long been scared of fruit, I have been starting the day with an array of fruits - watermelon, grapes, cherries, strawberries, grapefruit, etc., and even a banana! I am eating sweet potato, rice, beans, peas and other veg, either as salad or cooked, and yes, it has pushed my blood sugar higher initially, yet within a week it is starting to respond to the insulin so much better! I can see how this could potentially reverse insulin resistance given time.

It is interesting that whilst none of the groups logged as the healthiest, long-lived, etc., eat a totally plant-based diet, they do eat in general a very plant-heavy diet with limited amounts of animal protein, compared to those eating the Western diet.

Dr. Cyrus Khambatta has some interesting videos on YouTube about the benefits of WFPB. He is Type 1 himself. I had avoided watching the film Forks Over Knives until a few days ago, as I thought it was Vegan Propaganda (sorry to any vegans), but it is actually very enlightening. There are some interesting reversal experiences using WFPB on YouTube and the net now too since this thread was triggered.

So, in a week I have lost 1lb of weight (1lb loss per week seems to be normal for this regime), my energy seems to be improving slightly, my elimination is quick and easy (after being constipated most of my LCHF life), my insulin sensitivity is improving and I am sleeping better. Time will tell......

We just have to stop this 'one size fits all' attitude. If LCHF works for you, and has reversed your Diabetes, that is wonderful. If another approach works for someone else, that is wonderful too! Above all, let's be encouraging one another, not belittling....

I hope you will continue to share your experiences on this forum, We need people like you who are prepared to share their success stories as a personal experience for them.

What we do not need is people who barge in, state Do You Want to cure your diabetes?. WFPB is THE ONLY WAY to do this. Michael Greger is a wonderful man, watch what he has to say here <youtube video> and be cured forever.

This religious zeal immediately puts my back up, especially if there is (a) no personal story, and (b) no proper references to any scientific studies in support. I have no problem with people following the vegan way. It is not for me, but it works. As I follow LCHF, I have greatly increased my plant based foods, but not fruit since there is a strong indication that this may cause NAFLD and IR in T2 diabetics. The science is not fully proven yet, but the fact that fructose is handled seperately in the liver is a good indication for me.

As I tried to indicate in my previous post above, I do not follow guru's, and question the evidence as best I can. I did try to examine the evidence for WFPB but found it sadly lacking. There is plenty of blog type material, but not much in the science journals, and anyone can make up statistics, even a government! So your journey down this path is something I would like you to share with us.
 

AliB

Well-Known Member
Messages
334
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/

I can see how this works.

Whilst LCHF would reduce the blood sugar, simply because it is low carb, and low carb keeps the insulin requirement down, it does not necessarily reduce insulin resistance. Many consuming a LCHF regime actually develop physiological IR.

It works to keep the BG down, but IR is still present so carbs still - and always have to be kept to a minimum. Some lower than others.

However, the WFPB regime works by clearing the excess fat out of the cells so that insulin sensitivity returns.

It seems that whilst an animal protein diet always has to be accompanied by fat, a plant-based diet doesn't. It is not a fat-free diet as virtually everything contains fat or oil, but is extremely low fat. I can imagine that once lean mass is reached, some fat or oil could then be reintroduced quite safely.

The Western diet is very meat and fat loaded in comparison to many 'healthier' diets around the World. The penchant for consuming fried carb foods is also very likely contributory (chips, fries, etc.), and the need for cream with fruit (I do love my fats....hopefully my body will get used to not having them).
 

NoCrbs4Me

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,700
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Vegetables
You can also reverse your type 2 diabetes on an all meat diet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: smartlady

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
>>>>>>
However, the WFPB regime works by clearing the excess fat out of the cells so that insulin sensitivity returns.
>>>>>>>
.
I think this is an oversimplification, and I cannot find any evidence that this is what happens.

I believe IR is linked to a fatty liver as in Metabolic Syndrome, and googling NAFLD reduction brings up a multitude of diets that people put forward for reducing a fatty liver, but I could not see WFPB mentioned at all. Most diets seem to be ketogenic, and employ fat burning technique to get the liver to empty its fat stores. For keto to happen, the blood glucose levels MUST be low, so it is inherent that a low carb and limited protein intake is needed. This process seems believable to me, and makes sense.

A low fat diet will only work if the fat is ultra low, almost negligible, and since the brain has to have some fat to operate and the body also needs it to manufacture cholesterol to transport the B vitamins etc, then what you propose is to starve the brain of essential lipids so that the liver empties to compensate. I don't think this would be very efficient at reducing a fatty liver, and sounds a bit worrying. But there was a study that showed that a high carb ultra low fat can be used to reduce diabetes, so maybe WFPB does reduce IR. Not convinced though, since fasting for long periods would have similar claim, and would also be a way of curing T2D. But evidence so far is that it does not do that on its own. Mind you, excessive fasting would work and cure all manner of diseases - permanently , but its a bit extreme - its called death by starvation.
 

hankjam

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,270
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
I'm tending to take everything I eat with a touch of salt....
Each to their own.
If someone wants to shout from the rooftops, that's cool, I'll might listen... and then decide if it was worthwhile....
Time will tell if this approach has worked... it seems to be, at the moment.
:joyful:
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
This is how I see insulin resistance.

I believe it is caused by a combination of too much insulin and too much glucose. When we eat, insulin is produced to push the glucose into the cells. The more insulin there is, the more glucose it will push in. The cells become full to bursting because there is simply too much glucose for their needs so start to reject further glucose. This in turn promotes a larger production of insulin, of which some is successful in pushing more glucose in but some isn't. Some of the glucose spills out of the cells back into the blood stream. The pancreas produces even more insulin to try and push this glucose back in the cells. More insulin, more resistance from the cells, more glucose in the bloodstream and the more glucose in our cells, not doing us any good at all. It is a vicious circle - the more glucose there is, the more insulin is produced and the worse the resistance to insulin becomes and the more glucose gets stored as fat making the cells even more unhappy.

If we are to reverse diabetes we have to stop putting excess glucose in our bodies and also burn off the stored fat deposits in the cells to make room for some glucose. The cells will be happy, insulin production will reduce, whatever glucose we have will easily enter the cells for energy without the cells becoming full.

To me, this necessitates a diet low in carbohydrate, the lower the better. It also requires some effort to burn off the old stored fat, and fasting appears to be one way of doing this. There may well be other ways. How we achieve a sustainable low carb diet is personal to each of us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: maglil55

AliB

Well-Known Member
Messages
334
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
How can a low fat diet starve the body of lipids if it still carries excess fat..? It is widely known that the body can burn fat when excess glucose is depleted. The concept of this is that it seems to be able to restore insulin sensitivity.

Reversing diabetes isn't just about lowering blood glucose, it is about removing insulin resistance so that insulin sensitivity is restored.

It's not just fat in the liver that is the issue, but fat in other cells, especially the muscles. The muscles cannot burn sugar if they too are stuffed with fat. Too much of a good thing is not necessarily a good thing.

If you have reversed your insulin resistance by eating meat and fat, that is awesome, but despite sticking faithfully to it for 8/9 years, all that happened for me was that I gained over 30lbs (on top of my already very ample frame) and my IR got worse.......
 

AliB

Well-Known Member
Messages
334
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
This is how I see insulin resistance.

I believe it is caused by a combination of too much insulin and too much glucose. When we eat, insulin is produced to push the glucose into the cells. The more insulin there is, the more glucose it will push in. The cells become full to bursting because there is simply too much glucose for their needs so start to reject further glucose. This in turn promotes a larger production of insulin, of which some is successful in pushing more glucose in but some isn't. Some of the glucose spills out of the cells back into the blood stream. The pancreas produces even more insulin to try and push this glucose back in the cells. More insulin, more resistance from the cells, more glucose in the bloodstream and the more glucose in our cells, not doing us any good at all. It is a vicious circle - the more glucose there is, the more insulin is produced and the worse the resistance to insulin becomes and the more glucose gets stored as fat making the cells even more unhappy.

If we are to reverse diabetes we have to stop putting excess glucose in our bodies and also burn off the stored fat deposits in the cells to make room for some glucose. The cells will be happy, insulin production will reduce, whatever glucose we have will easily enter the cells for energy without the cells becoming full.

To me, this necessitates a diet low in carbohydrate, the lower the better. It also requires some effort to burn off the old stored fat, and fasting appears to be one way of doing this. There may well be other ways. How we achieve a sustainable low carb diet is personal to each of us.

If that is the case, then how come people like Cyrus Khambatta are consuming 10, 15 times the amount of carbs they used to yet have far better insulin response now? How come that within a week I am now eating lots of fruit, rice, beans, etc., and am still only taking around 30 units insulin or even less and am waking up with low FBG no higher than the night before ...? (Taking 40, 50 units or more was just not moving my blood sugar down on LCHF or even LC Lower Fat and dawn phenomenon was a big issue with me often waking up with FBG of 10, 12, 14 or more).
 
  • Like
Reactions: zand

pleinster

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,631
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
ignorance
Surely the only way one can claim to have reversed diabetes is if one has successfully lowered blood sugar levels to "normal levels" and can sustain such levels WITHOUT meds or insulin and without having to avoid foods that are high in carbohydrate? Anything else stops short and is at best a successful way of managing blood sugar levels. I don't see how anyone can talk about how successful the method/diet they have used has been if they still rely on insulin beyond that which the body is producing. There is a wee bit too much argument in all of this..a sort of "I'm right..you're wrong" thing. Can we not simply say this is working for me..etc..etc...and appreciate a] there are different approaches and different things work better for different individuals and b] there is a huge range of "expert" opinion out there on the bookshelves and the net...and some of it is..less than proven. Personally, having got Type 2 from steroid treatment, a low carb diet with no meds works for me and hopefully will keep working.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fleegle and ziggy_w

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
If that is the case, then how come people like Cyrus Khambatta are consuming 10, 15 times the amount of carbs they used to yet have far better insulin response now? How come that within a week I am now eating lots of fruit, rice, beans, etc., and am still only taking around 30 units insulin or even less and am waking up with low FBG no higher than the night before ...? (Taking 40, 50 units or more was just not moving my blood sugar down on LCHF or even LC Lower Fat and dawn phenomenon was a big issue with me often waking up with FBG of 10, 12, 14 or more).

My post was just giving my opinion on what I believe causes insulin resistance.
What do you think causes insulin resistance? I am genuinely interested to know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fleegle

kokhongw

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,394
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Why can't we accept that we may have similar symptoms but possibly have different conditions and triggers?

So some of us found LCHF/Intermittent fasting to be extremely effective. Others struggle with it. But found that plant based diet improves their condition tremendously.

But whichever path, we are still trying to achieve what our body seems to have been designed to do...that is to operate within the observed narrow glucose range of 4.0-7.0 mmol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DCUKMod

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
How can a low fat diet starve the body of lipids if it still carries excess fat..? It is widely known that the body can burn fat when excess glucose is depleted. The concept of this is that it seems to be able to restore insulin sensitivity.

Reversing diabetes isn't just about lowering blood glucose, it is about removing insulin resistance so that insulin sensitivity is restored.

It's not just fat in the liver that is the issue, but fat in other cells, especially the muscles. The muscles cannot burn sugar if they too are stuffed with fat. Too much of a good thing is not necessarily a good thing.

If you have reversed your insulin resistance by eating meat and fat, that is awesome, but despite sticking faithfully to it for 8/9 years, all that happened for me was that I gained over 30lbs (on top of my already very ample frame) and my IR got worse.......
You are right to point out that the body burns the excess fat when glucose in blood is depleted. But with a high intake of carbs, then the glucose is not depleted, and this switches off the ketosis mode, and the body happily munches glucose in preference to fat, so the liver does not empty. This is why ketosis is so important in shifting fatty liver deposits, as well as emptying the muscles of their stores as well, otherwise the body has a near constant supply of blood glucose to burn. WFPB is a high carb diet.
If glucose levels are high then going very low fat intake will mean that the body has anple glucose, but low levels of lipids from the stomach. In this instance it reacts, not by a liver dump,, but by creating lipids from carbs instead. So it seems the liver is held back. The liver only steps in with a liver dump when bgl is low such as an approaching hypo and this is an emergency response when all else fails, It happens mainly in the morning because one of the signals of impending starvation is that no food has come into the stomach for several hours, the stomach has emptied, and sugar is low.

This is why we only really notice a liver dump when doing a low carb diet or prolonged fasting. I cannot see a viable proceess by which WFPB can trigger the liver to 'lose weight'. So I must be wrong in thinking IR is due to fatty liver.

On a personal note, I have been LCHF for 2 years this Sept, and my body weight has been static at 10,.5 stone since the inital loss I am at a good weight for my frame but even on higher fat intake I do not gain, so for me LCHF is working well, But I am not claiming to have reversed my T2D. I have just gained control over it for a while,
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
So I must be wrong in thinking IR is due to fatty liver.

Is that what you believe?

I was under the impression it is the other way round, that a fatty liver is due to insulin resistance, and that the fatty liver is the last thing to happen in a chain of events starting with excess insulin and excess glucose, then insulin resistance, then fat storage.

I am open to being proved wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Freema

Oldvatr

Expert
Messages
8,470
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Is that what you believe?

I was under the impression it is the other way round, that a fatty liver is due to insulin resistance, and that the fatty liver is the last thing to happen in a chain of events starting with excess insulin and excess glucose, then insulin resistance, then fat storage.

I am open to being proved wrong.
Think it is both:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/insulin-fatty-liver-disease

This is of course by Jason Fung, so is awaiting confirmation by others, so is not proof yet. But there are others who agree with his thought process, including specialists in South Africa and Australia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zand

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
Think it is both:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/insulin-fatty-liver-disease

This is of course by Jason Fung, so is awaiting confirmation by others, so is not proof yet. But there are others who agree with his thought process, including specialists in South Africa and Australia.

It seems to be a vicious circle where the beginning is uncertain. Whichever way round it is, it is certain that it all starts with too much insulin and too much glucose.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Freema