Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[AliB]

There are groups around the World eating high carb diets, and groups around the World eating high fat diets where diabetes is unheard of, or at least virtually unheard of.

It comes back to eating whole food, unprocessed diets, whatever they might be.

Jay Wortman did his study on Canadian First Nationals where those who were able to revert to eating as close to their Ancestral Diet as possible were able either to reverse their diabetes, or at least radically improve it.

We are surrounded by unnatural pseudo-food. Highly processed, nutrient-devoid everything. Refined vegetable oils that when heated turn to varnish (ever tried removing congealed vegetable oil off a fryer...?). What the heck has that done to our cells over the years...?

I am NOT pushing WFPB, just pointing out that it may be another option, especially for those of us for whom LCHF hasn't worked.

 

[AliB]

It seems to be a vicious circle where the beginning is uncertain. Whichever way round it is, it is certain that it all starts with too much insulin and too much glucose.

That is partly true, but the real point is that the glucose is high and the insulin higher because something is blocking the glucose from getting into the cells. Drs. Khambatta, Greger, Bernard, Esselstyn, Campbell et al believe that it is excess fat that is blocking the glucose uptake. In studies they certainly have found this to be true, certainly in muscle tissue. How 'true' it actually is, who knows? It's like an onion. Just when you think you've got to the centre there's another layer......

We are told that we need to be in ketosis for the body to burn fat, however, the body will still burn its own fat for processes that need it, such as the brain and lungs, even when there is an abundance of glucose/fructose. We are told that fructose is bad, however, no one really knows how it works in the body or what processes are triggered by its consumption. We are told that you have to consume shed loads of fat in order to burn fat, yet how can the body burn its own fat when there is an endless supply of exogenous fat...?

We are TOLD a lot of things by those who call themselves 'experts', but 'expert opinion' has also done a lot of damage over the years. I have done a LOT of research over the last decade and have, through common sense, experimentation and rationalisation filtered out a whole heap of 'expert' dross and garbage. Everything is based on opinion, and there are as many opinions as there are people. The sea of scientific opinion is a constantly shifting quagmire.

My conclusion is that the only truth in it all lies in how MY body responds to any given protocol.

Health and healing is not an exact science. We are all on a different journey from various backgrounds, diets, chemical exposures, drug exposures, emotional experiences, etc., etc. Sugar and carbs may be a trigger for one person, fat for another, a drug exposure for another, chemical exposure for another, etc., etc.....

There is rarely ONE cause of anything. It is often a combination of triggers.

 

[Oldvatr]

There are groups around the World eating high carb diets, and groups around the World eating high fat diets where diabetes is unheard of, or at least virtually unheard of.

It comes back to eating whole food, unprocessed diets, whatever they might be.

Jay Wortman did his study on Canadian First Nationals where those who were able to revert to eating as close to their Ancestral Diet as possible were able either to reverse their diabetes, or at least radically improve it.

We are surrounded by unnatural pseudo-food. Highly processed, nutrient-devoid everything. Refined vegetable oils that when heated turn to varnish (ever tried removing congealed vegetable oil off a fryer...?). What the heck has that done to our cells over the years...?

I am NOT pushing WFPB, just pointing out that it may be another option, especially for those of us for whom LCHF hasn't worked.

We had a lengthy discussion on these diets on
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/eating-high-carb-low-fat-an-alternative.104815/
It stats with a successful aplication of WFPB to address diabetic syndrome, and shows the diet works, There were several requests for more science evidence, but very little was forthcoming, and I am still conerned about some aspects of the diet. especilly knowing how my body reacts to any carbs makes me think I woiuld not myself benefit from it.

 

[AliB]

We had a lengthy discussion on these diets on
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/eating-high-carb-low-fat-an-alternative.104815/
It stats with a successful aplication of WFPB to address diabetic syndrome, and shows the diet works, There were several requests for more science evidence, but very little was forthcoming, and I am still conerned about some aspects of the diet. especilly knowing how my body reacts to any carbs makes me think I woiuld not myself benefit from it.

The thing is, I felt the same.

When eating LCHF, virtually any carbs would send my BG into orbit. Although I am now having a fair amount of fruit, rice, sweet potato, beans, etc., yet without the meat and high fat my general BG is lower than it was before and as long as I keep the fat low, is improving. It is still early days yet, less than a week, but just to see my FBG back into single figures and normal or just above normal range on the same or even less insulin is amazing.

I might never be able to get off insulin. I have been on it 14 years, but when T1 Diabetics on this regime can consume many times more carbs on half the amount of insulin, even that would be a bonus. But as I mentioned, only time will tell. My quest has always been to heal my body, not to 'just manage' my disease. Diabetes never comes on it's own.......

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I am NOT pushing WFPB, just pointing out that it may be another option, especially for those of us for whom LCHF hasn't worked.

I was never able to go the LCHF route, but benefited on a LCLF diet, until about 6 months ago when my body was converting other things to glucose because my HbA1c was rubbish and my daily BG was all over the place.

I have recently tried to imitate the Newcastle diet, found that the shakes were spiking my BG so went totally plant based and /or skipping breakfast most days and skipping lunch some days. I only managed 6 weeks but I think the fact that my BG straightened out and was in a much better place (5-7) allowed me to start adding certain protein based foods like chicken, fish and some yoghurt. What I haven't been able to put back is bread, potato, rice or pasta and I did experiment.

So for me personally, low carb plant based has been very good and as has been mentioned many times, it's all down to what works for you, we all have to experiment a bit to see what works and what doesn't.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Hi @AliB My experience is that now I am plant based, I can tolerate more carbs. I am not WF though, but after watching Dr Khambatta's video last night, I can see the advantages in WFPB. Thanks for posting, definitely something for me to think about.

I always thought it was enough to keep my bg numbers low and slow, but now I don't think that is enough for me. Decreasing insulin resistance should be my goal. I regularly see members posting here that they eat low carb but have a spike after a moderate deviation (perhaps at a social event). This suggests to me that they manage their bg well day-to-day by not eating carbs and not creating an insulin response. That is one way to manage the condition. Another way would be to make our cells more receptive to the insulin we have on board (for those of us who do) so that any healthy carbs we do eat can be used for energy and nutrition. This seems to me like more of an improvement rather than just management. Combined by recent talk of plants helping to create a healthy gut microbiome to help with insulin resistance, this is all very interesting to me. Thanks for sharing your experience

 

[Oldvatr]

In light of the discussion on the effects of different diets on Insulin Resistance, may I offer the following scientific discussions to anyone wanting to research IR any further:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811436/

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-in-Whole-Body-Insulin-Sensitivity-in-Hum.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiponectin

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

*whoooosh*

That was the sound of those links over my head I'm afraid Perhaps someone with a brain for reading such things will understand them. Thanks @Oldvatr

 

[AliB]

Hi @AliB My experience is that now I am plant based, I can tolerate more carbs. I am not WF though, but after watching Dr Khambatta's video last night, I can see the advantages in WFPB. Thanks for posting, definitely something for me to think about.

I always thought it was enough to keep my bg numbers low and slow, but now I don't think that is enough for me. Decreasing insulin resistance should be my goal. I regularly see members posting here that they eat low carb but have a spike after a moderate deviation (perhaps at a social event). This suggests to me that they manage their bg well day-to-day by not eating carbs and not creating an insulin response. That is one way to manage the condition. Another way would be to make our cells more receptive to the insulin we have on board (for those of us who do) so that any healthy carbs we do eat can be used for energy and nutrition. This seems to me like more of an improvement rather than just management. Combined by recent talk of plants helping to create a healthy gut microbiome to help with insulin resistance, this is all very interesting to me. Thanks for sharing your experience

Weird isn't it. That doing the one thing you would think would be in direct opposition to diabetes, can actually work.

Last night when I went to bed, my BG was 7.8 (which was considerably lower than it has been in recent times on LC). This morning it was 6.2..! No more DP...!

Dr. Khambatta points out in his videos that it is the insulin sensitivity that is key. It is not so much about how much insulin your body needs, but how it responds to it. So people starting this way may have an insulin response of 1:2 or less, but can go up to as much as 1:15 or more when sensitised. In other words, for the same amount of insulin, a person can now eat 15 x the amount of carbs than before when eating high fat.

Fat does not raise blood sugar, but it does seem to oppress the body's ability to respond to insulin correctly.

I have ALWAYS loved fat and fatty things. Even when the low-fat craze was in full swing (although I suspect that was a conscience trip for those who were still getting lots of fat in other ways....). Just maybe that has been my downfall......

I remember reading somewhere about a situation back in the early 1900s where a woman was healed of diabetes by feeding her lots of sugar and starchy food, but for the life of me can't remember where.....

 

[Bluetit1802]

*whoooosh*

That was the sound of those links over my head I'm afraid Perhaps someone with a brain for reading such things will understand them. Thanks @Oldvatr

LOL. Me too. My brain can't cope with all that I'm afraid, but thanks @Oldvatr
Can anyone interpret?

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Weird isn't it. That doing the one thing you would think would be in direct opposition to diabetes, can actually work.

Last night when I went to bed, my BG was 7.8 (which was considerably lower than it has been in recent times on LC). This morning it was 6.2..! No more DP...!

Dr. Khambatta points out in his videos that it is the insulin sensitivity that is key. It is not so much about how much insulin your body needs, but how it responds to it. So people starting this way may have an insulin response of 1:2 or less, but can go up to as much as 1:15 or more when sensitised. In other words, for the same amount of insulin, a person can now eat 15 x the amount of carbs than before when eating high fat.

Fat does not raise blood sugar, but it does seem to oppress the body's ability to respond to insulin correctly.

I have ALWAYS loved fat and fatty things. Even when the low-fat craze was in full swing (although I suspect that was a conscience trip for those who were still getting lots of fat in other ways....). Just maybe that has been my downfall......

I remember reading somewhere about a situation back in the early 1900s where a woman was healed of diabetes by feeding her lots of sugar and starchy food, but for the life of me can't remember where.....

Maybe it is an either or thing? Carbs or fat, but not both? If you decide to post your progress I would be interested to read it. With you being T2 with insulin, it may be easier to gauge any changes to your needs or resistance. All the best

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

In light of the discussion on the effects of different diets on Insulin Resistance, may I offer the following scientific discussions to anyone wanting to research IR any further:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811436/

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-in-Whole-Body-Insulin-Sensitivity-in-Hum.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiponectin

For some reason I can't get either of the first two URLs to open, the Wikipedia one, no problem. Are there any bright sparks with a technical explanation because my brain hurts. Facebook has died as well, but this forum, no problem.

 

[Oldvatr]

*whoooosh*

That was the sound of those links over my head I'm afraid Perhaps someone with a brain for reading such things will understand them. Thanks @Oldvatr

I have to say I have read them all the way through, and actually started to understand them. They make sense, and are in line with other research I did a while ago when I researched the Krebs cycle (or Citric Cycle) that governs glucose uptake into cells.
PS it helps to understand that the term HGP that they use is what I would normally call Blood Glucose Levels. The recent discovery of adiponectin and its effect on glucose takeup is interesting.

I will try to get my head around why WFPB can reduce HPG (bgl) and if it reduces muscle IR or Adipocyte IR or both. I can see how LCHF can reduce the adipocyte IR and indirectly help reduce muscle IR,

Edit to add: First clue - increased fibre increases adiponectin levels
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21967160

Second clue: the following foods increase adiponectin : avacadoes,olive oil, pumpkin, chocolate, peanuts, Most of these are either forbidden or at least frowned on in WFPB diet.

 

[Bluetit1802]

It is easier for those on insulin to judge how sensitive they are to insulin. It isn't so easy for unmedicated T2s such as myself. I have no idea how much insulin I produce, either basal or at meal times. Likewise I have very little idea of the amount of resistance I have. I could do an OGTT but that would only tell me there was an insulin problem. It wouldn't tell me what the problem is. (Too much insulin, too little insulin, or insulin resistance) Or would it? I don't know. I am rambling.

 

[Oldvatr]

For some reason I can't get either of the first two URLs to open, the Wikipedia one, no problem. Are there any bright sparks with a technical explanation because my brain hurts. Facebook has died as well, but this forum, no problem.

Just tested the forum links and they open ok for me. I found them in a google search so should be accessible to all,

 

[Oldvatr]

It is easier for those on insulin to judge how sensitive they are to insulin. It isn't so easy for unmedicated T2s such as myself. I have no idea how much insulin I produce, either basal or at meal times. Likewise I have very little idea of the amount of resistance I have. I could do an OGTT but that would only tell me there was an insulin problem. It wouldn't tell me what the problem is. (Too much insulin, too little insulin, or insulin resistance) Or would it? I don't know. I am rambling.

In the first link I just posted above they used the OGTT to measure IR, but they also compared it to the results given by an insulin clamp lab test and found it compares, But there is a fiddle factor to apply which they mention but do not give as a value. I have seen it discussed elsewhere on the web so others use this method too. It can be done at home with a bgl meter and a stopwatch, but needs you to measure 75 cl of Lucozade (original not low sugar!) for the OGTT. and you must do the 8 hour fast before it.

 

[Bluetit1802]

In the first link I just posted above they used the OGTT to measure IR, but they also compared it to the results given by an insulin clamp lab test and found it compares, But there is a fiddle factor to apply which they mention but do not give as a value. I have seen it discussed elsewhere on the web so others use this method too. It can be done at home with a bgl meter and a stopwatch, but needs you to measure 75 cl of Lucozade (original not low sugar!) for the OGTT. and you must do the 8 hour fast before it.

Yes, I have been researching the home OGTT. It also requires 3 days of eating at least 150g of carbs beforehand. With Lucozade you need 75g of glucose (not cl). Having examined the ingredients on these bottles, it does state how many grams there are per 100 ml/cl so it can be calculated how much to drink depending on the bottle size.

 

[zand]

@AliB good to see you! I found what you have said very interesting as I am still struggling with insulin resistance and not managing to lose more weight. I have lost around 3 stones with LCHF but have been stuck for a few years now. I have been reducing the amount of meat I eat already, so could maybe follow your path eventually. I also miss fruit dreadfully. Please keep updating us with your progress. It all looks good so far.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Just tested the forum links and they open ok for me. I found them in a google search so should be accessible to all,

Thanks for looking, I've got them now although they took minutes rather than seconds to load. I can't tell if it's a local area problem (how come other URLs load OK?) or even my PC (it is old, but again other URLs seem OK). Even Faceache is playing up.

 

[AliB]

It is easier for those on insulin to judge how sensitive they are to insulin. It isn't so easy for unmedicated T2s such as myself. I have no idea how much insulin I produce, either basal or at meal times. Likewise I have very little idea of the amount of resistance I have. I could do an OGTT but that would only tell me there was an insulin problem. It wouldn't tell me what the problem is. (Too much insulin, too little insulin, or insulin resistance) Or would it? I don't know. I am rambling.

That is true, however I do feel that if you have a meter, testing for DP can be a good indicator. If your BG is generally higher in the morning than the night before then IR is a distinct likelihood