Reversing Type 2 diabetes

DavidGrahamJones

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And yet, great glucose control has never been achieved on these diets by me as I have consistently needed medicating.

Well done on the weight loss, some of those recipes look very tasty, Carbs might not be wonderful, the Cinnamon Apple Oatmeal for breakfast (66gms carb), quinoa pilaf for dinner (32gms carb), BBQ portobellos (28.9 gms carb), not bad though. I have found that with the very low calorie Newcastle like regime, sometimes a little bit of carb does nothing but then something like a slice of bread puts my BG up to 12 or so. Very much a balancing act though.
 
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Avocado Sevenfold

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The main reason I want to urgently improve my insulin resistance is because of its role in not only diabetes but cancer too. I am the first T2 in my family. However my mother and 4 of her sisters and also their mother struggled with their weight. I believe they were insulin resistant. They all died of cancer.

I hope so much that you manage to find a way. It won't be through lack of trying all options X
 

Oldvatr

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The main reason I want to urgently improve my insulin resistance is because of its role in not only diabetes but cancer too. I am the first T2 in my family. However my mother and 4 of her sisters and also their mother struggled with their weight. I believe they were insulin resistant. They all died of cancer.
This suggestion that IR is linked to cancer would make T2D more likely to die of csncer rather than the normal pathology associated with the disease. I do not think T2D are more susceptible to cancer than the general populace.
 

zand

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This suggestion that IR is linked to cancer would make T2D more likely to die of csncer rather than the normal pathology associated with the disease. I do not think T2D are more susceptible to cancer than the general populace.
So are you saying I shouldn't try to reduce my IR and lose weight and reverse my T2 then?
 

Oldvatr

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Don't have the brainpower to even look at all the links in this thread, and the video ones are wasted on me as I don't have speakers that work. I will read/watch when I and the PC feel better. Thanks for all the links.
Yes it gave me brainache too. Basically what this is about is that whereas animals have tools to defend themselves from predators, then the plant world has developed its own mechanisms. Not claws and teeth but poisons that make them unpalatable to certain of their predators and creepy crawlies. These poisons get into our bodies in the form of Lectins which are proteins that are in many cases toxic to us (endotoxins), These proteins can leak from the gut into the blood stream and cause us harm. What Dr Gundy has done is identify those foods that we eat which contain these substances, and is advising using good techniques for us to mimimize our exposure by proper cooking. Unfortunately on WFPB and some other vegetarian diets there is a tendancy to consume the veg in the raw state, so the lectins are not suppressed. For example, it is not advisable to eat raw potato, so we cook it first, even if eating it cold later in a salad, Kidney beans will kill you if not cooked in a pressure cooker Ricin will kill you cooked or not. So this advice given by Dr Gundy is of some importance.

The other paper that @kokhongw posted also shows thar eating a HF diet may make it more likely that these lectins will leak due to inflammation in the gut. So LCHF people also need to take heed.

@DCUKMod Please extract this post from here, and attach it to my new thread Should We Fear Lectins.
 
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Oldvatr

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So are you saying I shouldn't try to reduce my IR and lose weight and reverse my T2 then?
Not at all. It is just making a connection to cancer that I query. Reducing IR is good, Reducing obesity is good. Finding a lifestyle that does both is the Holy Grail.
 

Oldvatr

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Well this is where I first got the idea that IR and T2 and cancer were linked.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...ype-2-diabetes-diagnosis.104423/#post-1201763
I find the closing remarks in that newsflash to be pertinent, in that once diagnosed then diabetics come under sustained surveillance with blood tests that are above what are given to the general populace, My GP has recently given me a few scares recently with investigations into bowel, stomach, prostate and kidney/liver functions to explore the poss of cancer. So far I am clear. Again, pre diagnosis, then patients may be presenting with symptoms and problems that cause increased visits to a doctor,

I found many studies that declare this link to T2, but was unable to find anyone actually crunching the numbers to give the evidence, It is a possible hypothesis, but apart from that Candian study, which apparently only reviewed T2D not diabetics as a whole, then I remain a lirrle sceptical. There are studies of diabetic mortality in the WHO database, and these show the predominant causes of death are CVE and kidney, pancreas, heart failure. Bear in mind that many T2D oral meds are also associated directly (and proven) to cause cancer in these organs too.
 

Bluetit1802

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Cancer is a big subject. How many different types are there - thousands, and within each type there are dozens of sub-types.
Years ago I read some research about cervical cancer. It seems nuns don't get cervical cancer. Answer - no more sex.
 

JohnEGreen

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Cancer is a big subject. How many different types are there - thousands, and within each type there are dozens of sub-types.
Years ago I read some research about cervical cancer. It seems nuns don't get cervical cancer. Answer - no more sex.
Very rare it is true but not unknown down side their rate of breast cancer is far higher than the general population.
 
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zand

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@Oldvatr From my point of view. I come from a 'cancer' family. All of those affected had trouble losing weight and I reckon were IR. I can't prove it, they are all dead. I am alive. I have found another possible way of reducing my IR ( by trying HCLF) and I am going to do my utmost to be as healthy as I can. I'm not actually bothered about studies because when it comes down to a personal level if n=1 then that's all that matters. Only my results and observations matter to me.

I'm feeling really excited and motivated at the thought of trying something new. I will aim for 250g carbs 14g fat and 31g protein. Maybe this time.....
 

JohnEGreen

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I'm feeling really excited and motivated at the thought of trying something new. I will aim for 250g carbs 14g fat and 31g protein. Maybe this time.
Out of curiosity when you say 14g of fat do you mean all fats or a particular fat that is saturated, unsaturated, transfats or monounsaturated fats?
 

Oldvatr

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I am not convinced WFPB claims are valid. There is a distinct lack of scientific debate and study backing it up, and that worries me greatly. It seems that the main research studies that get referred to are the Harvard Nurses Study and the China Study. The Harvard was a valid research project, and indeed the data has been heavily analysed by many independant reviewers, but they seem to come to fundamentally different conclusions on the effect of diet on health. The China study is quite frankly a farce, and was not properly conducted. The data and the conclusions could have a horse and cart drawn through them. I have not myself reviewed the study report since it is now withdrawn from the archive, but the book based on the conclusions is still around.

I can see how an ultra low fat diet could possibly reduce fat stores over time, and that this could possibly reduce muscle IR, but not immediately (or miraculously.?). So with high carb intake, and presumably high bgl initially then this will lock out the fat path ( and stop any thoughts of ketosis) so how does this square up? Glucose freely available, so fat not required by muscle, so IR is not reduced, so cycle continues its upward spiral.

So for this to work, something must be preventing the bgl levels from rising when carbs are consumed. What is it about WGPB that is so different to all the other diets.. Of course, it must be Low GI and high fibre. But will this be sufficient to cover a large portion of rice? or oats. or those things that I use in my current diet that are equally low GI but still spike me? I cannot find a proper explantion in the videos that explains how a high carb intake is handled without causing rise in bgl and insulin. The ones I watched simply said that the insulin takes care of things. Not in my case it doesn;t. My insulin is blocked by IR.

I have so far looked at Muscle IR which is the predominant affectation of T2D. There is of course the Metabolic syndrome IR that concerns lipids stored in the adipose tissue. How is this tackled by WFPB? I can see how ketogenesis does it in LC diets, but WFPB is not LC. Adipose fat is very difficult to shift. It is reluctant to go even when faced with serious workouts in the gym. So how can I as a sedentary T2D use WFPB to shift my baby bump? These things are not explained in the videos, and I do not have time or energy to buy the books and read them No one has come back to this thread with proper data in support of WFPB, so I for one will no longer consider it to be a valid diet for me to try. You are all, I hope, going to make up your own minds, and I hope I have helped you to have a more informed decision path, but now you tread it without me.
 

Oldvatr

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Out of curiosity when you say 14g of fat do you mean all fats or a particular fat that is saturated, unsaturated, transfats or monounsaturated fats?
Are these quantities per meal or per day? I think the original WFPB recommendation was 10 g max a day of all fat including nuts, but I see that Forks over Knives has relaxed it to 15g. Remember that for IR to be reduced then fat must be ultra low, else the fat stores will not become depleted, Low fat aka Eatwell#2 does not even come within waving distance of this.
 

Resurgam

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I believe that if you are unlucky enough to have cancer then some types of it can grow better in a high glucose environment than one rich in ketones - some cancer cells lack the ability to utilise ketones as an energy source.
 
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Oldvatr

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I believe that if you are unlucky enough to have cancer then some types of it can grow better in a high glucose environment than one rich in ketones - some cancer cells lack the ability to utilise ketones as an energy source.
My son was advised to use Paleo or Atkins#2 after his chemo. That was Cambridge hospital, who are pioneers in C.
 

AliB

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Whilst I do believe that humans need some animal protein due to various factors like low L-Lysine in plants and non-existent B12, I also feel that a diet that is plant-heavy rather than meat-heavy is a key to actually healing the body.

Many of us are where we are due to toxins. Although not absolute, in general, fruits and vegetables tend to be catabolic, whilst animal foods tend to be anabolic.

In order to heal and repair properly, the body has to be able to do both functions.

Fasting is catabolic. The benefits of longer fasting and shorter eating phases are becoming apparent. When the body is in anabolic mode longer than in catabolic, it cannot cleanse itself properly in order to heal.

I feel the real benefits of WFPB are more to do with giving the body more tools for stripping out stored toxic waste, rogue proteins, dead and decaying matter, and just generally having an extended housekeeping period but with an abundance of decent vitamins, minerals and trace elements in order to facilitate healing.

The only way a plant diet can be facilitated in the long term is if the applicant is able to ensure they are getting enough of all the macro and micro-nutrients from a large variety of different plant sources and adding supplements where necessary. I have seem some positively sunken-eyed cadaverous looking vegan and fruitarian gurus out there, and that has been pretty off-putting, however it has been good to see ones like Michael Greger, Neil Barnard, and other WFPB proponents who do actually look healthy.....
 
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loiphamp

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which way to be best way to reverse diabetes wfpb or lchf..?????
 

zand

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I would say that lchf is the best way to control diabetes. It worked for me for a few years, but my weight loss has stalled. I don't yet know about wfpb until I have tried it. The Newcastle diet is in effect high carb and seems to work because of its low calorie content.
 
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