Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Anthony1738]

I think,( and no doubt youll correct me if I'm wrong, ) but the ND has nothing to do with Carbs its a calorie restricted diet based on Prof Taylors findings regarding patients who underwent bariatric surgery who were found to have their Diabetes reversed. So he set up the study to try and duplicate the effects of not being able to eat very much, hence the 800 cals per day thing, as I understood in his lecture he said the profast sachets were used as a convenient method of calorie counting.

PS. Ive found the Cambells brand cuppa soups very useful on fasting days, carbs per sachet 16g, protein 1.7g and fat 3.9g.
Total cal 106.

 

[Fleegle]

I think,( and no doubt youll correct me if I'm wrong, ) but the ND has nothing to do with Carbs its a calorie restricted diet based on Prof Taylors findings regarding patients who underwent bariatric surgery who were found to have their Diabetes reversed. So he set up the study to try and duplicate the effects of not being able to eat very much, hence the 800 cals per day thing, as I understood in his lecture he said the profast sachets were used as a convenient method of calorie counting.

PS. Ive found the Cambells brand cuppa soups very useful on fasting days, carbs per sachet 16g, protein 1.7g and fat 3.9g.
Total cal 106.

You are spot on. The ND is all about a VLCD diet for at least 8 weeks to try and rid pancreatic fat.
But there is a lot going on in this thread with Ketosis being added and carbs - I thought worth clarifying as I read a lot of posts about really high carbs in the shakes (BTW they are for me) and wanted to clarify that point.

 

[kokhongw]

It is hard to imagine a 600-800 calorie/day diet that typically normalize glucose levels within a week...and not being in a state of ketosis...

 

[kokhongw]

Just consider this 5 day FMD when ketones are being tracked -
https://thequantifiedbody.net/fast-mimicking-diet/

In practice this translates to:

• Day 1: 54% norm caloric intake 1,090 kcal (10% protein, 56% fat, 34% carb)
• Days 2–5: 34% norm caloric intake 725 kcal (9% protein, 44% fat, 47% carb)

That the Newcastle protocol don't focus on measuring ketones or talk about ketosis does not mean it is not in effect...how else would they burn off 15kg in 8 weeks especially if it is to be 15kg that is to be protein sparing?

 

[ringi]

And I know the point was about Ketosis - but the thread is broader so I thought I would simply add that those on 100g of carbs a day the ND diet is, in fact, a lower carb diet for them so great news all round. Just have all three shakes on one go.

If using the shakes once a day, I think I would have 1 or 2 shakes, replacing the 3d shake with enough cream, butter or olive oil to make up the 800 cal. I would also be having the shakes in the norming before a walk.

 

[AlexMagd]

It is hard to imagine a 600-800 calorie/day diet that typically normalize glucose levels within a week...and not being in a state of ketosis...

I would imagine on 800 calories a day you'd be in the 'starvation' range below:

 

[Fleegle]

If using the shakes once a day, I think I would have 1 or 2 shakes, replacing the 3d shake with enough cream, butter or olive oil to make up the 800 cal. I would also be having the shakes in the norming before a walk.

Are you not concerned that changing the macro's specifically the fat content might distort the outcomes.
The ND is low fat and low protein to.

In saying that - I also know that Prof T has said that this can also be achieved using normal foods. That would liken it to the blood sugar diet so I guess you could make that in anyway you wished.

 

[ringi]

No, as Prof T in the questions at the end of some of his talks (see utube) says he thinks it is just about the weight loss and he only used the shakes as he made his study easier too control.

 

[Mbaker]

Are you not concerned that changing the macro's specifically the fat content might distort the outcomes.
The ND is low fat and low protein to.

In saying that - I also know that Prof T has said that this can also be achieved using normal foods. That would liken it to the blood sugar diet so I guess you could make that in anyway you wished.

That would make sense, as Michael Mosley's protocol uses "real food", and says in reference to Professor Roy Taylor "His work formed the basis of my most recent book, The 8-Week Blood Sugar Diet...'

 

[Kentoldlady1]

No, as Prof T in the questions at the end of some of his talks (see utube) says he thinks it is just about the weight loss and he only used the shakes as he made his study easier too control.

So the amount of carbs etc are not important. You could do this without any. Which would make way more sense for a t2d. I have not watched the t.v. programme about tina, but from what I have read that was not made at all clear.
In fact, in some ways it seems to be pushing the fact that carbs are included.

 

[Tannith]

There are a lot of carbs in dash diets.
Too many for me else I would have done it.
Dash is basically a low sodium high potassium diet for those with htn. I have Conn's as well as T2D/ RH so I eat LCHF with low sodium high potassium because my body retains sodium and pees out potassium. Whatever you do if you are hypertensive do not follow the advice on here to ingest more salt.
Consult your doctor.
When I see people recommending more sodium and potassium I chuckle, its like putting ones feet on the accelerator and brake at the same time.
regards
Derek

Thank you for the warning not to eat too much sodium

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

the ND has nothing to do with Carbs its a calorie restricted diet

True, but if you cut calories you'll be cutting carbs as well. Even if all the 600 calories were carbs that's about 125 gms of carb going by something I saw on the U.C.L.A. website. 125gms would be too much for me, but it's definitely less than the "eatwell" recommended amount.

If carbs reduced proportionally to calories i.e. about 1/4, that's a fair reduction in carbs for some.

 

[Fleegle]

True, but if you cut calories you'll be cutting carbs as well. Even if all the 600 calories were carbs that's about 125 gms of carb going by something I saw on the U.C.L.A. website. 125gms would be too much for me, but it's definitely less than the "eatwell" recommended amount.

If carbs reduced proportionally to calories i.e. about 1/4, that's a fair reduction in carbs for some.

Agree - just for clarity - it is up to 800 calories. 600 come from three shakes, 200 come from non-starchy veg. It isn't a big deal because that probably adds less than 10g of carbs in but wanted to clarify.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Agree - just for clarity

I tend to talk in ball park figures because it really isn't an exact science. I've tried the Newcastle type regime but with vegetable type juices and had considerable success. Not as much weight loss but it's all work in progress.

 

[Fleegle]

I tend to talk in ball park figures because it really isn't an exact science. I've tried the Newcastle type regime but with vegetable type juices and had considerable success. Not as much weight loss but it's all work in progress.

It is an exact science if you follow the protocol which was my point. Pretty exact anyway.
I get your point though but sometimes I have read posts and think is 600, 800, 1000, 1200 or even 1600 I see on one post - so I like to make the point that the ND following the shake diet is 800.

 

[Syd]

It is an exact science if you follow the protocol which was my point. Pretty exact anyway.
I get your point though but sometimes I have read posts and think is 600, 800, 1000, 1200 or even 1600 I see on one post - so I like to make the point that the ND following the shake diet is 800.

If you're going to be a stickler for accuracy then the protocol published by the team conducting the research states as follows:

"A commercial micronutrient-replete 825–853 kcal/d liquid formula diet (soups and shakes) will be provided (Cambridge Weight Plan) to replace usual foods, with ample fluids (2.25 L), for 12 weeks."

 

[Pipp]

@Fleegle, @Syd

As the definitions of ND seem to vary, and as information from the Newcastle research team is being published in interim papers, would it be possible for you to state your source of information. Particularly the quoted content, @Syd

 

[Syd]

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/direct-protocol.pdf

 

[Tannith]

What frightens me about ND is that the success rates for home dieters were 73% and those for the first study 87%, for people diagnosed under 4 years ago. Lower percentages for longer T2. This means there are only a limited number of people who might benefit from it. I have read about 2 other vlcal diet similar trials, one in Sweden one in America (sorry couldn't find much detail), where they only even attempted it with people who had been diagnosed for less than 2 years. Presumably that's because 2 years is when the pancreatic cells start being killed by the fat in the pancreas. That leaves an awful lot of people looking for another solution to reversing T2.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

It is an exact science if you follow the protocol which was my point. Pretty exact anyway.
I get your point though but sometimes I have read posts and think is 600, 800, 1000, 1200 or even 1600

I'm not disputing that, not for one minute. I know that initially ND was 600, now 800 and from personal experience I know that 1000 and above doesn't even work, for me. I'm just trying to say, possibly badly, that a dramatic decrease in calories will also lead to a dramatic decrease in carbs, unless you deliberately only eat 800 calories worth of carbs, or about 200 gms.

My suggestion that it's not an exact science is really down to the fact that as a person who should consume 2400 calories a day, I should lose weight on 1800 calories or less, that's what the dieting world tell me. I don't and in fact have to get my calorie intake down to 800 calories to achieve any weight loss at all. Even 1200 is too much for weight loss for me.