Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[DavidGrahamJones]

This means there are only a limited number of people who might benefit from it.

Just some anecdotal info to add to the suggestion that it only works if you've been diagnosed for less than a certain amount of time. I attempted to follow a Newcastle regime (didn't use powders, I got the juicer out or just ate vegetables) and managed about 6 weeks (I'm human with human failings). Previously I had been eating about 40gms of carb a day, but my BG was all over the place after managing quite well for 4 years. I basically removed all sources of protein (meat, fish, chicken, cheese, dairy) to get down to about 700 - 800 calories a day.

My BG straightened out and kept between 5 and 7 for days and days without the bizarre peaks and troughs experienced previously. As soon as I went back to the old meat and veg routine, it started to peak and trough and not necessarily within a few hours of eating.

I was diagnosed 20 years ago, and the ND approach was obviously doing something to my insulin resistance, I just need to sustain things for longer to achieve an even great weight loss.

 

[Syd]

Looking at the product information of the Cambridge Diet Plan shakes, it seems that each shake has 145 KCals and 14.5g of carbs, so your carbohydrate intake is going to be in the order of 80g or so.

 

[kokhongw]

Dear Kokhong,

Could you state this simply for numbskulls like me. I am not understanding.

When we restrict to a 800 calorie per day diet (except perhaps 800g of pure carbs/sugar) will likely result in significant lowering of the circulating glucuse/insulin levels within 5-7 days. It is this lowering of the glucose and insulin levels that will enable the body to ramp up fats burning...ie ketosis and rising ketones.

The graphs provided is a 5-7 day experiment done by the blogger who followed a 5 day fasting micmicking diet which is just under 800 calories a day. It was found that at this level of calorie intake and meal composition, it simulated the glucose/insulin response that is similar to a full water fast. Glucose levels falls and ketones rises significantly as an alternative fuel.

 

[Fleegle]

@Fleegle, @Syd

As the definitions of ND seem to vary, and as information from the Newcastle research team is being published in interim papers, would it be possible for you to state your source of information. Particularly the quoted content, @Syd

Very happy to do so.
My information comes from the sample vegetable diet plan and states in the first few paragraphs:=
Meal replacement with Optifast (3 sachets each day) – this provides a total of 600 calories and the necessary daily vitamins and mineral requirements  Eat up to 3 portions of non-starchy vegetables each day (total of 250g each day) (for fibre content) – this will provide another 200 calories  Drink - 3 litre of water or calorie-free beverages each day

I looked up the OPTIFAST shakes on the Nestle web site and they had the same levels as above. Now I have no idea whether there are different versions but this is what I found on the Newcastle University web site and then Nestle web site.

And here is the link to sample recipes which is linked from the main ND university page and worth reading because the list of stuff you can eat for your 250g of veg a day is not as limiting as when I first read on one of the threads that it was cabbage and broccoli.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/sample-recipes.pdf

And I have posted this link many times on the threads to ensure that anyone who wants to follow the actual Newcastle diet know what that actually is. It is a moving target with more data coming out weekly now. Many people invent their own variant which is actually excellent but if you want the scientific study data this is what I read.

 

[Fleegle]

If you're going to be a stickler for accuracy then the protocol published by the team conducting the research states as follows:

"A commercial micronutrient-replete 825–853 kcal/d liquid formula diet (soups and shakes) will be provided (Cambridge Weight Plan) to replace usual foods, with ample fluids (2.25 L), for 12 weeks."

I am a stickler and only publish what I read on the Newcastle University web site and quote my sources in a different post. Perhaps they contradict themselves on that site - I am reading the recipe guide.

 

[bulkbiker]

I am a stickler and only publish what I read on the Newcastle University web site and quote my sources in a different post. Perhaps they contradict themselves on that site - I am reading the recipe guide.

The Cambridge Diet shakes are being used on the current DiRECT study.. the Optifast were used on the Counterpoint and Counterbalance studies so far as I can tell..

 

[Syd]

So we could have at least two Newcastle Diets.

 

[bulkbiker]

So we could have at least two Newcastle Diets.

Kind of.. Prof Taylor himself has said the only reason they used the meal replacement shakes was for consistency among the trial participants.. so I'm not convinced it really matters where the 800 calories come from.. especially as the whole thought process behind the diet is consistent with the "a calorie is a calorie wherever it comes from " ethos ( fatally flawed in my opinion) .

 

[Fleegle]

The Cambridge Diet shakes are being used on the current DiRECT study.. the Optifast were used on the Counterpoint and Counterbalance studies so far as I can tell..

That may well explain the differences on the site then. I didn't know which study they came from because it only refers to suggested recipes.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[ringi]

What frightens me about ND is that the success rates for home dieters were 73% and those for the first study 87%, for people diagnosed under 4 years ago. Lower percentages for longer T2.

Be carefull how you define "success", they are defining it as normal BG with no drugs while eating normal high carb food. But is it not "success" if someone can reduce the number of drugs they are using, and also grealy reduce the lickelyhood of loosing feet or going blind?

I expect that people who have done ND and "failed" still find it easyer to control there BG with "low carb" then before they did ND......

Personly I no wish to go back to bread for breakfast eveyday, as I like eggs more - we each have our own definition of "success". Mine is normal BG while being able to eat out etc without issue and having food I like at home.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I wonder if there is a test to find out what pancreatic situations exist for us.

I'm assuming you mean something like a c-peptide test. I had one done when I started low carb about 4 years ago and I had another at the beginning of the year. The two results had led me to believe that my insulin resistance had changed which is why my BG was all over the place after 3 years of good BG control and HbA1c results. My GP had said my insulin resistance was the problem although did not suggest a c-peptide test to provide some extra evidence. I did that.

 

[Tannith]

I'm assuming you mean something like a c-peptide test. I had one done when I started low carb about 4 years ago and I had another at the beginning of the year. The two results had led me to believe that my insulin resistance had changed which is why my BG was all over the place after 3 years of good BG control and HbA1c results. My GP had said my insulin resistance was the problem although did not suggest a c-peptide test to provide some extra evidence. I did that.

I'm glad you are doing well on ND. I am coming to the end of my 8th week (ends wed). I have only lost 7% of my weight so far so I shall have to continue it for another 10 weeks or so at the rate I am going. BGs are down from low diabetic range to low prediabetic range. But this may be simply because the food I am eating is pretty low carb so I am not challenging my IR. My version of Very Low Cal is low in both carbs and fats. I am keeping protein more or less the same.

 

[ringi]

I'm glad you are doing well on ND. I am coming to the end of my 8th week (ends wed). I have only lost 7% of my weight so far so I shall have to continue it for another 10 weeks or so at the rate I am going.

The risk is that your body gets used to having less food coming in, and therefore slows down its use of energy. Hence I expect mixing it up a bit would be worthwhile with say 2 days of the week when you eat unlimited (as much as you want to eat) low carb meals.

 

[Pipp]

So we could have at least two Newcastle Diets.

It is evolving all the time.

 

[Tannith]

The risk is that your body gets used to having less food coming in, and therefore slows down its use of energy. Hence I expect mixing it up a bit would be worthwhile with say 2 days of the week when you eat unlimited (as much as you want to eat) low carb meals.

Thank you Ringi

 

[CherryAA]

Just some anecdotal info to add to the suggestion that it only works if you've been diagnosed for less than a certain amount of time. I attempted to follow a Newcastle regime (didn't use powders, I got the juicer out or just ate vegetables) and managed about 6 weeks (I'm human with human failings). Previously I had been eating about 40gms of carb a day, but my BG was all over the place after managing quite well for 4 years. I basically removed all sources of protein (meat, fish, chicken, cheese, dairy) to get down to about 700 - 800 calories a day.

My BG straightened out and kept between 5 and 7 for days and days without the bizarre peaks and troughs experienced previously. As soon as I went back to the old meat and veg routine, it started to peak and trough and not necessarily within a few hours of eating.

I was diagnosed 20 years ago, and the ND approach was obviously doing something to my insulin resistance, I just need to sustain things for longer to achieve an even great weight loss.

David, have you tried restricting you food to just one meal a day ? I've been amazed to find that has been allowing me to eat more food than before and still lose weight, but even if you personally still need to eat very low calorie, one 800 meal is a lot nicer to deal with in terms of what you can eat at that meal than three small meals of nothing much !

 

[Tannith]

I have realised that I had miscounted. I am just starting my 10th week of ND now, not my 9th. Not that it makes much odds. You have to keep going til you have lost 15% of your weight so I am in it for the long haul!

 

[Fleegle]

I have realised that I had miscounted. I am just starting my 10th week of ND now, not my 9th. Not that it makes much odds. You have to keep going til you have lost 15% of your weight so I am in it for the long haul!

@Tannith. Well that is complex isn't it. 15%.... 15% from your highest ever weight - or 15% from when you started? I think these are just directional. Because as I know you know it is about your personal fat threshold. I am not sure myself how I will know I have got there... I am hoping that results start getting better - not sure...

Have you any idea - or can you afford to lose 15% easily enough?

 

[Tannith]

@Tannith. Well that is complex isn't it. 15%.... 15% from your highest ever weight - or 15% from when you started? I think these are just directional. Because as I know you know it is about your personal fat threshold. I am not sure myself how I will know I have got there... I am hoping that results start getting better - not sure...

Have you any idea - or can you afford to lose 15% easily enough?

All I know is that Prof Taylor's successful subjects lost 15% of their weight. I've since heard somewhere that it should be 15% of your weight at diagnosis. Presumably that would be about where you tipped over your personal fat threshold. But I agree with you its just directional. I would say it was the point at which I would test to see if I could tolerate normal carbs without excessive spikes. (I think normals have mild spikes). I think to be certain you would have to have a posh MRI scanner like Prof Taylor's. I can only just afford to lose 15% of my weight. It would take me down to the middle of my normal range BMI. I would never describe myself as a "thin diabetic", but I was in the middle of the "overweight" BMI range when I started,That was the highest weight I have ever been and I have never been actually obese.

 

[Fleegle]

All I know is that Prof Taylor's successful subjects lost 15% of their weight. I've since heard somewhere that it should be 15% of your weight at diagnosis. Presumably that would be about where you tipped over your personal fat threshold. But I agree with you its just directional. I would say it was the point at which I would test to see if I could tolerate normal carbs without excessive spikes. (I think normals have mild spikes). I think to be certain you would have to have a posh MRI scanner like Prof Taylor's. I can only just afford to lose 15% of my weight. It would take me down to the middle of my normal range BMI. I would never describe myself as a "thin diabetic", but I was in the middle of the "overweight" BMI range when I started,That was the highest weight I have ever been and I have never been actually obese.

@Tannith. If only we had the scanner. I lost way over 15% before I even started the ND and whilst of course that and/or the LCHF diet did bring my BG down, it was heading up and I was having to eat less and less carbs.
I think normal people blip quite a lot actually. There are some good graphs on the ND site which show the average insulin production of the control group and the group on the ND. And remember whilst he says reversed, he mentions in his video's things like wedding cake - and about 75% of the potatoes you ate before so I think you will be looking for shorter and lower lifts - in my opinion. Michael Mosely talks about sticking to the med. diet with no bread and a real occasional desert if he is out which he shares in his blood sugar diet book.
Keep posting - interested to see how the next couple of weeks go for you.